Too many certs makes you look desperate or phony?

N2IT

I was talking with my ex boss who is also a good friend of mine. I went over a certification I am going for which is an intermediate level ITIL cert. Nevermind the particulars, however he did say I should pump the breaks a little bit. He thinks since I obtained several certifications within a year it makes me look desperate and could hurt me more than help. He likes the fact I have a few, but feels to many would have an adverse effect.

He is an IT director so he has paid his dues and his opinion are well respected at least by me, but of course that is only one mans opinion.

Thoughts?

I will say he isn't a hypocrite. He has two certifications, both sponsered through the company we work for. ITIL Foundations being one and a SAP Professional Certification

Devilsbane

I don't think so. Maybe you did crank through 10 certs in a year (I'm working on it now). First of all, the employer doesn't know when you took or passed the test. Second, why would being too good hold you back? You might look a little desparate if on your resume you listed 30 certifications in 10 pt font in 4 columns, but certainly having them shouldn't knock you down.

Maybe he just doesn't want you to make him look bad? I'm not sure, but I can't see how you would look desparate by working hard.

N2IT

Devilsbane wrote: »

I don't think so. Maybe you did crank through 10 certs in a year (I'm working on it now). First of all, the employer doesn't know when you took or passed the test. Second, why would being too good hold you back? You might look a little desparate if on your resume you listed 30 certifications in 10 pt font in 4 columns, but certainly having them shouldn't knock you down.

Maybe he just doesn't want you to make him look bad? I'm not sure, but I can't see how you would look desparate by working hard.

I tend to agree with you.

An example he gave me was 2 years experience and 10 certifications. According to him he wouldn't hire that guy. Of course I am not going to be that guy, well I already have 5 years experience for one and only 3 certifications, and thats if you count MOS 2007 expert as a certification.

After my last certification which will take me up to the end of the year or close to it, I will take sometime off.

Devilsbane

I have 4 months of corporate experience, and a year of working in a work study position maintaining a lab. I also have A+, Net+, MOS 2007, and tomorrow I will be taking the final test for my MCSA. Would he hire me? Less than a year and a half experience with 4 credentials, well 5 if you count the MCP.

The next test is Security+, and then working on MCSE:Security which I expect to have before the end of the year. So come December, I will have close to 2 years experience with 7-8 credentials depending on how you count them. I don't think that is going to make me look desparate.

Sure, I will probably lose if put head to head with someone with 5 years of equivalent experience, but I should win hands down if put up against someone with 2 years of experience and 0 or 1 certifications... right?

it_consultant

Remember; even if you have a cert you don't have to mention it or display it in any way unless it benefits you. You must have a good reason for going for your mid-level ITIL cert (the basic level was enough for me) which may come in very handy when you start doing project management or you contract or work for the government.

It does amuse me to see people list 8 million certs, especially someone who says "CCNA, CCNP". Duh, you have to to have a CCNA to have a CCNP, leave the CCNA part alone. That may look like you are desperate to display your achievements.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

I was talking with my ex boss who is also a good friend of mine. I went over a certification I am going for which is an intermediate level ITIL cert. Nevermind the particulars, however he did said I should pump the breaks a little bit. He thinks since I obtained several certifications within a year it makes me look desperate and could hurt me more than help. He likes the fact I have a few, but feels to many would have an adverse effect.

He is an IT director so he has paid his dues and his opinion are well respected at least by me, but of course that is only one mans opinion.

Thoughts?

I will say he isn't a hypocrite. He has two certifications, both sponsered through the company we work for. ITIL Foundations being one and a SAP Professional Certification

Interesting question. Your boss is voicing an opinion, so always be mindful of that. In my book there is nothing wrong with getting qualified. Can you overdo it? Of course you can and on lots of levels.

If the company is shelling out for recurring training costs a flag can be raised.

If your training needs seem to far exceed your peers there can be complaints.

If you seem to spend more time and energy at work on getting certified than actually doing paid work you can be perceived as having your priorities out of balance. This is particularly true if your peers are less inclined to study for certifications. They may actually feel they are taking up some of your slack on the workfront.

My personal position is that certifications are good, but the important thing is to be much more visible at work in terms of your daily work accomplishments than in your training and certification aspirations. That is after all what pays the bills and gets your promoted, not your certifications. Everytime you take company dollars (and this includes study on works time) for certification or training, the perception grows that the company should be getting something back for it. You have to manage that perception.

As for having too many in a general sense...well, IT certification is a victim of it's own success really. Back in the day the combined moniker MCSE, CNE, CCNP had a lot of gravitas, and it still does to some extent. For me the holy trinity was MCSE CNE CCIE..and I'm close

But with the surge in interest in these things and the growth and maturity of publishing and training materials we ended up with a lot of people getting a lot of certifications in a relatively short period of time. The fact is that today a lot of IT certifications, while useful in terms of a learning experience, are actually very accessible and with effort not too difficult to obtain for most people.

So cherry pick the ones that add the most value to what you want to be doing at work, and ensure that you use what you are learning so that it advances your career.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

I tend to agree with you.

An example he gave me was 2 years experience and 10 certifications. According to him he wouldn't hire that guy. Of course I am not going to be that guy, well I already have 5 years experience for one and only 3 certifications, and thats if you count MOS 2007 expert as a certification.

After my last certification which will take me up to the end of the year or close to it, I will take sometime off.

Your boss would have hired that guy in a heartbeat 10 years ago, and so would anyone else for that matter. But it was a different time with everybody scrambling to find somebody, anybody who *might* help them implement a lot of new stuff they didnt understand or shift a lot of new stuff to a customer who had signed a lucrative contract. It was a new thing. The IT landscape was very different back then and has shaken down. So the experience expectations have gone up as companies have become more comfortable with technology and the workforce has aged and grown up with it.

As for your personal circumstance I dont think your certification expectations are excessive based on where you are at. Neither should your employer really.

networker050184

I tend to agree with your boss. When I see someone racking up the certs in no time it makes me think one of two things: 1 they are dumping them or 2 they are flying through so quick they aren't going to remember half the material. Neither of those is a positive in my book.

That being said I don't think your certifications are excessive. Basically all you have is the ITIL and ISO/IEC (no disrespect to the MOS stuff, but I don't really count those).

N2IT

it_consultant wrote: »

Remember; even if you have a cert you don't have to mention it or display it in any way unless it benefits you. You must have a good reason for going for your mid-level ITIL cert (the basic level was enough for me) which may come in very handy when you start doing project management or you contract or work for the government.

It does amuse me to see people list 8 million certs, especially someone who says "CCNA, CCNP". Duh, you have to to have a CCNA to have a CCNP, leave the CCNA part alone. That may look like you are desperate to display your achievements.

I am in service operations and there is a management and supervisor position opening up. I feel that the additional knowledge will give me a foot up into the position. That and the interest I have in the operational process propels me to seek that knowledge. Maybe I am being over zealous, it's hard to tell.

Devilsbane

networker050184 wrote: »

no disrespect to the MOS stuff, but I don't really count those.

No offense taken here. MOS is a business certification, aimed at office workers to do their jobs better. It isn't really an IT certification. I picked it up with the expectation that it would help me get into a helpdesk role supporting those users that should have it.

I don't know if it helped or not, but I did land myself that service desk job. I also learned some cool tricks.

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

Your boss would have hired that guy in a heartbeat 10 years ago, and so would anyone else for that matter. But it was a different time with everybody scrambling to find somebody, anybody who *might* help them implement a lot of new stuff they didnt understand or shift a lot of new stuff to a customer who had signed a lucrative contract. It was a new thing. The IT landscape was very different back then and has shaken down. So the experience expectations have gone up as companies have become more comfortable with technology and the workforce has aged and grown up with it.

As for your personal circumstance I dont think your certification expectations are excessive based on where you are at. Neither should your employer really.

I really do appreciate the feedback. Sometimes you second guess yourself and put yourself in a panic mode for lack of a better term. Should I or shouldn't I. lol

Anyway I don't want to be a cert hound, but I do want to strengthen my skills sets and put myself in a position to get paid

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

Anyway I don't want to be a cert hound, but I do want to strengthen my skills sets and put myself in a position to get paid

Thats what it's all about really. If a cert will help you do a better job 9 - 5 then do it. It can help you be more effective at work and get better paid roles within the company, or elsewhere if you move.

Again, the key thing as I always say is your work defines you. It is not your qualifications that get you into the senior roles. It is your portfolio of impressive work experience. There are many people who have worked hard to get quite impressive certifications who are not going anywhere fast. They dont do the right kind of work.

Get the chance to do impressive things in your job if you want your career to escalate.

Can certs help there? Sure. They may be a lever to being handed a project because *you know something about it*. But to cope with the project you want a certification process that really equips you to do the job well, and you need to sell that to the company to get on.

2ndchance

Turgon wrote: »

Interesting question. Your boss is voicing an opinion, so always be mindful of that. In my book there is nothing wrong with getting qualified. Can you overdo it? Of course you can and on lots of levels.

If the company is shelling out for recurring training costs a flag can be raised.

If your training needs seem to far exceed your peers there can be complaints.

If you seem to spend more time and energy at work on getting certified than actually doing paid work you can be perceived as having your priorities out of balance. This is particularly true if your peers are less inclined to study for certifications. They may actually feel they are taking up some of your slack on the workfront.

My personal position is that certifications are good, but the important thing is to be much more visible at work in terms of your daily work accomplishments than in your training and certification aspirations. That is after all what pays the bills and gets your promoted, not your certifications. Everytime you take company dollars (and this includes study on works time) for certification or training, the perception grows that the company should be getting something back for it. You have to manage that perception.

As for having too many in a general sense...well, IT certification is a victim of it's own success really. Back in the day the combined moniker MCSE, CNE, CCNP had a lot of gravitas, and it still does to some extent. For me the holy trinity was MCSE CNE CCIE..and I'm close

But with the surge in interest in these things and the growth and maturity of publishing and training materials we ended up with a lot of people getting a lot of certifications in a relatively short period of time. The fact is that today a lot of IT certifications, while useful in terms of a learning experience, are actually very accessible and with effort not too difficult to obtain for most people.

So cherry pick the ones that add the most value to what you want to be doing at work, and ensure that you use what you are learning so that it advances your career.

This is some real good advice. I'm actually in a bit of an argument with my wife on this one. She wants me to fly through my MCITP:SA and actually got mad at me today because I went up to work to troubleshoot a replication issue rather than study for the 70-642. In my book, there is no reason for me to be an MCITP:SA if I can't maintain the technologies in which I am certified.

I try to study mostly on my own time, but I can tell that my work performance can decline a bit when my mind is always focused on the next cert. What I really try to do is always bring value to my organization that corresponds to what I am learning. By example, we really didn't have anyone in our organization that knows Group Policy (we are pretty small). I've pushed out a look of enhancements to our computer systems via group policy over the last months as a means of both learning the material and showing my boss that my certification goals benefit our organization.

Just my 2 cents...

killuah72

it_consultant wrote: »

It does amuse me to see people list 8 million certs, especially someone who says "CCNA, CCNP". Duh, you have to to have a CCNA to have a CCNP, leave the CCNA part alone. That may look like you are desperate to display your achievements.

Most HR folks don't know that if you have a CCNP you also have a CCNA. So you are hurting yourself if you don't list both on your resume. But on your sig, putting both is silly in my opinion.

dynamik

I look that way anyway, so I might as well beef up the resume

Ashenwelt

killuah72 wrote: »

Most HR folks don't know that if you have a CCNP you also have a CCNA. So you are hurting yourself if you don't list both on your resume. But on your sig, putting both is silly in my opinion.

Remember, your resume is for gettint an interview. Part of getting to that interview is often a keyword search of your resume. If some HR guy reads that CCNA is required for the job, and a CCIE sends in a resume that has no CCNA on it... they get skipped. Period.

The HR guy's job is the sort the possible wheat from the chaff. Be aware and plan accordingly.

Mishra

Do the proper research and take all the time necessary to learn and absorb the information that is present with certifications.

No matter who you are, take as much time as you need to actually understand what you are being taught. However long that takes is up the individual person. If that scores you 40 certifications in 2 years then so be it.

If I have an 40 certifications in all different kinds of fields where I have learned most/all the information and I'm applying for a network architect, I'm likely only to list 7 on the resume tailored for that position. However, during the interview I can tell them I have 40 and I will be completely ready to answer any questions they may have about anything relating to my certs. Trust me, I'm going to look very good to MOST interviewers (there are always exceptions).

It's not the certification; it's the content.

Study hard and good luck.

Turgon

Mishra wrote: »

Do the proper research and take all the time necessary to learn and absorb the information that is present with certifications.

No matter who you are, take as much time as you need to actually understand what you are being taught. However long that takes is up the individual person. If that scores you 40 certifications in 2 years then so be it.

If I have an 40 certifications in all different kinds of fields where I have learned most/all the information and I'm applying for a network architect, I'm likely only to list 7 on the resume tailored for that position. However, during the interview I can tell them I have 40 and I will be completely ready to answer any questions they may have about anything relating to my certs. Trust me, I'm going to look very good to MOST interviewers (there are always exceptions).

It's not the certification; it's the content.

Study hard and good luck.

Yes I agree with that. I would add it's not the certification, but what you learn, and crucially, what you have delivered usefully as a result of the knowledge. Often that's the deal breaker as opposed to demonstrating you know how a system works because you studied it. Put it into context in the field and talk about that!

2ndchance

Turgon wrote: »

Thats what it's all about really. If a cert will help you do a better job 9 - 5 then do it. It can help you be more effective at work and get better paid roles within the company, or elsewhere if you move.

Again, the key thing as I always say is your work defines you. It is not your qualifications that get you into the senior roles. It is your portfolio of impressive work experience. There are many people who have worked hard to get quite impressive certifications who are not going anywhere fast. They dont do the right kind of work.

Get the chance to do impressive things in your job if you want your career to escalate.

Can certs help there? Sure. They may be a lever to being handed a project because *you know something about it*. But to cope with the project you want a certification process that really equips you to do the job well, and you need to sell that to the company to get on.

With reference to a portfolio of experience, how do you typically convey this to a future employer? Do you submit a multi-page resume or do you work in these experiences during the interview process?

Devilsbane

2ndchance wrote: »

With reference to a portfolio of experience, how do you typically convey this to a future employer? Do you submit a multi-page resume or do you work in these experiences during the interview process?

Working them into the interview is a much better idea. If you are applying for a high level job, you can get away with a 2 page resume but that is about it. Your resume just wants to generate some interest so that they bring you in to talk about it.

If you do have 40 certification, it might not be a bad idea to create an entire document of them. Then it is something you can pull out of your portfolio during the interview to give a visual to what your saying, as well as something you can leave behind. I do that with my references. So when they ask to get reference I can present them right there rather then email them when I get home. I think it just adds a little extra that I came prepared.

2ndchance

Devilsbane wrote: »

Working them into the interview is a much better idea. If you are applying for a high level job, you can get away with a 2 page resume but that is about it. Your resume just wants to generate some interest so that they bring you in to talk about it.

If you do have 40 certification, it might not be a bad idea to create an entire document of them. Then it is something you can pull out of your portfolio during the interview to give a visual to what your saying, as well as something you can leave behind. I do that with my references. So when they ask to get reference I can present them right there rather then email them when I get home. I think it just adds a little extra that I came prepared.

I agree that you should anticipate things like references and bring them with you. Speaking of being prepared, here is something I did for a position for which I appiled, but have yet to receive a call.

The posting was for a Sys Admin with a 5A school district. I went to the school district website and gathered the following information:

• The names/titles of the entire tech team.
• The student popluation as well as where each campus is located within the city.
• I deduced that they run Exchange 07 inside their network.
• That they use Eduphoria Helpdesk as their ticket system, and that the site faces the Internet without using HTTPS and a public CA.
• What brand of computers they use.

Do you think that would impress an interviewer or make them think I'm a stalker?

Devilsbane

2ndchance wrote: »

Do you think that would impress an interviewer or make them think I'm a stalker?

Sounds a little stalkerish. But you could use that information to ask questions. You can still ask a question, even if you already know the answer. Then maybe even ask a more detailed question after that to show off your knowledge of IT.

2ndchance

Devilsbane wrote: »

Sounds a little stalkerish. But you could use that information to ask questions. You can still ask a question, even if you already know the answer. Then maybe even ask a more detailed question after that to show off your knowledge of IT.

Yeah, I suppose it could sound stalkerish depending upon how I used that info in the interview. My thought process in gathering this info was threefold:

1. To demonstrate to the interviewer that I have an eye for security and for doing things right (refer to #4).

2. To ensure that the district is a fit for me. I wanted to ensure the tech team is large enough and can handle number of campuses. The last thing I want to do is take a better paying job but go back into the mode where you never have time to do anything other than put out fires. I could avoid appearing like a stalker by following your advice.

3. To show the interviewer that I am just as interested in making sure the district is a fit for me as they are.

dynamik

2ndchance wrote: »

Do you think that would impress an interviewer or make them think I'm a stalker?

I always do as much information gathering as possible when interviewing with a company. Going a little out of your way looks great.

There is obviously a line that can be crossed. I don't see any value in getting all the staff's home addresses

As long as you're getting the information from their website, press releases, etc., you won't have a problem.

Psoasman

2ndchance wrote: »

The posting was for a Sys Admin with a 5A school district. I went to the school district website and gathered the following information:

• The names/titles of the entire tech team.
• The student popluation as well as where each campus is located within the city.
• I deduced that they run Exchange 07 inside their network.
• That they use Eduphoria Helpdesk as their ticket system, and that the site faces the Internet without using HTTPS and a public CA.
• What brand of computers they use.

Do you think that would impress an interviewer or make them think I'm a stalker?

I had an interview where I was asked what I knew about the company.I was glad I took a few hours to research how they started, what they do, who works with them. If the information is freely available on their website, I wouldn't consider it stalkerish
It shows you cared enough to research the company.

rogue2shadow

Psoasman wrote: »

I had an interview where I was asked what I knew about the company.I was glad I took a few hours to research how they started, what they do, who works with them. If the information is freely available on their website, I wouldn't consider it stalkerish
It shows you cared enough to research the company.

I agree with Pso. I had one interview where the very first question was "Tell me about the company". It just shows you going the extra mile to ensure a good fit; there are other variables to becoming a good fit though.

showstoppermd

I've always felt that having the certs shows aptitude. The braindumpers are of course the issue. Most interviews I have been in, and I have been on both sides, usually involve at least a few technical questions to gauge the applicant's current grasp of a task they will need to perform the job. I don't think having too many certs hurts as long as you do know what you are doing or at least are honest about what you can and can't do during an interview.

GeeLo

Hey Hi

I've been in IT for more then 20 years.. getting a bunch of certs, one after another does not make you look "desperate", not at all. You have to keep upgrading your skill, no matter what field of IT that your in. If "you" need to take a break for a bit, that's ok.. as long as you hop on the bandwagon again later on, but don't stop in regards to "looking desperate".

Another thing, does your company pay or reimburse you for your certification? Companies usually like to cut reimbursement for testing and training materials as to save money, I have seen that a lot and in the same type of context that your manager has told you.

I learned this later in my career that it is never a wrong idea to keep on learning. Also remember that you may not need "this cert".. or "that cert" now.. but down the road, job change (loss or opportunity) you may be glad that you did. Good luck to you, all the best!

N2IT

I guess it just depends on your situation. Some of you young guys who don't have families and are in College, I would ramp up myself in areas of interest. I think when I am speaking it is towards the working professional already locked into a position. I am currently supporting SAP functionally for several modules. I've been in IT for a while and have 5+ years of experience. Actually I have more but thats consecutive experience.

I just feel some of the certifications out there for me to get don't possess enough ROI when considering them. I do have the MOF version 4 book and the ISO/IEC 27001 & 27002 that I am looking into, and the ITIL service operation intermediate certification. Hopefully I have the drive, but I am not so sure the effort will pay off in the end.

Like another poster mentioned. Getting it done at work will give you the biggest gains. I probably need to **** the cert module and focus more on what he said.

garv221

N2IT wrote: »

I was talking with my ex boss who is also a good friend of mine. I went over a certification I am going for which is an intermediate level ITIL cert. Nevermind the particulars, however he did say I should pump the breaks a little bit. He thinks since I obtained several certifications within a year it makes me look desperate and could hurt me more than help. He likes the fact I have a few, but feels to many would have an adverse effect.

He is an IT director so he has paid his dues and his opinion are well respected at least by me, but of course that is only one mans opinion.

Thoughts?

I will say he isn't a hypocrite. He has two certifications, both sponsered through the company we work for. ITIL Foundations being one and a SAP Professional Certification

That is something a guy with no certs would say.. Does this guy not realize time continues? It will not hurt you../thread

neuropol

I've always looked at it this way. Managers tell you certs don't matter, or not to worry about them because management doesn't care too much about them, as a way to keep you at that company. If you ever try to find another job you will be at a disadvantage because you lacked certs others have.

This happened to me once. The owner of the company i worked for derided certs, and as a result no one obtained any. Tech bubble cost me that job, and with no certs to prove my abilities I stood no chance of finding a job. It would have been difficult at that time to find a job anyway, but the lack of certs made it impossible.

My vote goes for getting whatever certs you can while employed.