Too many certs makes you look desperate or phony?

N2IT

neuropol wrote: »

I've always looked at it this way. Managers tell you certs don't matter, or not to worry about them because management doesn't care too much about them, as a way to keep you at that company. If you ever try to find another job you will be at a disadvantage because you lacked certs others have.

This happened to me once. The owner of the company i worked for derided certs, and as a result no one obtained any. Tech bubble cost me that job, and with no certs to prove my abilities I stood no chance of finding a job. It would have been difficult at that time to find a job anyway, but the lack of certs made it impossible.

My vote goes for getting whatever certs you can while employed.

Just being nosey. Which certs did you want to obtain at the time that you elected to pass on?

nicklauscombs

neuropol wrote: »

My vote goes for getting whatever certs you can while employed.

this gets my vote as well.

neuropol

N2IT wrote: »

Just being nosey. Which certs did you want to obtain at the time that you elected to pass on?

MCSE is the only one I remember. Still have some of the texts, but never took any of the tests.

2ndchance

My background is as an IT Manager/Network Administrator. My boss budgets money to pay for a subscription to CBT Nuggets. In addition, she now pays for our study materials and the tests itself. Finally, she is using our certifications as justification for salary increases. Working for a school district means great hours but poor pay. [rant]I have ten years experience and I make $6,000 more than a 1st year teacher and I work 39 more days! In other words, a first year teacher has a higher hourly wage than me. [\rant]

That being said, I am happy to have a job and I have a great deal of sympathy with anyone in the IT world who is currently out of a job. I have less sympathy for teachers who complain that they don't make much money!

Ashenwelt

2ndchance wrote: »

[rant]I have ten years experience and I make $6,000 more than a 1st year teacher and I work 39 more days! In other words, a first year teacher has a higher hourly wage than me. [\rant]

Er, if you have ten years in IT... you should be looking for another job. That is ridiculous unless you work in an INCREDIBLY high paying school.

Devilsbane

Ashenwelt wrote: »

Er, if you have ten years in IT... you should be looking for another job. That is ridiculous unless you work in an INCREDIBLY high paying school.

Everyone has different motivations. Not everyone places money at number 1. If you are making enough money to pay the bills, and love what you're doing, then there might not be any reason to try to move up the latter.

Bl8ckr0uter

Devilsbane wrote: »

Everyone has different motivations. Not everyone places money at number 1. If you are making enough money to pay the bills, and love what you're doing, then there might not be any reason to try to move up the latter.

I disagree. While everyone has different motivations are soon, if you have been doing the same thing for 10+ years without changing your skillset, you have to start worrying about "Job Security". A company might start seeing you as dead weight, not an expert. You have to grow in order to stay valuable in this market. I got my CCNA in December and my CCNA:S in February and I know that I am going to have to get my CCNP and CCIP (or at least that skill set or knowledge) in order to be what my company wants me to be.
We all have to be constantly getting better, because if you aren't chances are you are getting left behind. With any job, after you have been there for X years, it is easy to get rusty and complacent. With some jobs this isn't as big of an issue, but in IT this can be the downfall of your career. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have seen people who had double or triple the amount of experience that I have but with half the knowledge. I know one guy who was working on a helpdesk for 10 years. No certs, no plans to advance, and he was ok with being a phone/remote tech forever. IF he had to get a new job today, he probably wouldn't have the skills because he was happy with being a screen reader. I was at that place for 19 months and in that 19 months, I learned everything he knew plus a lot more and I was able to obtain some certs. I was able to find a new job that put 20k more a year in my pocket just because I wasn't complacent.
To 2nd maybe it is time to get a new gig because if you have 10 good , progressive years of IT exp and you are making less than some 20-something teacher, then there is a problem.

Devilsbane

knwminus wrote: »

I disagree. While everyone has different motivations are soon, if you have been doing the same thing for 10+ years without changing your skillset, you have to start worrying about "Job Security". A company might start seeing you as dead weight, not an expert. You have to grow in order to stay valuable in this market. I got my CCNA in December and my CCNA:S in February and I know that I am going to have to get my CCNP and CCIP (or at least that skill set or knowledge) in order to be what my company wants me to be.
We all have to be constantly getting better, because if you aren't chances are you are getting left behind. With any job, after you have been there for X years, it is easy to get rusty and complacent. With some jobs this isn't as big of an issue, but in IT this can be the downfall of your career. I have seen it with my own two eyes. I have seen people who had double or triple the amount of experience that I have but with half the knowledge. I know one guy who was working on a helpdesk for 10 years. No certs, no plans to advance, and he was ok with being a phone/remote tech forever. IF he had to get a new job today, he probably wouldn't have the skills because he was happy with being a screen reader. I was at that place for 19 months and in that 19 months, I learned everything he knew plus a lot more and I was able to obtain some certs. I was able to find a new job that put 20k more a year in my pocket just because I wasn't complacent.
To 2nd maybe it is time to get a new gig because if you have 10 good , progressive years of IT exp and you are making less than some 20-something teacher, then there is a problem.

I agree with that. My personal values right now are to move up. More money, more responsibility, more knowledge. But I know that isn't what everyone wants to do. Employers look for people with evolving skills. I spoke with a hiring manager once who wouldn't hire someone who sat in the same job for more than a year unless they could prove that they were evolving.

If I was making more than enough money to support a family, and woke up every morning excited to go to work, then I wouldn't be looking for something else. Would it hurt my career? Quite likely. But job happiness is one of my high priorities, and "If it isn't broke, don't fix it" is a favorite quote of mine.

Bl8ckr0uter

If it ain't broke, then you probably aren't looking hard enough. I do agree, if you are simply trying to feed your seed, then yea I can see that. If IT is just a job for you then do what you do. But if you want an IT career, resetting passwords and unlocking accounts for 10 years is close to hell.

networker050184

knwminus wrote: »

If it ain't broke, then you probably aren't looking hard enough. I do agree, if you are simply trying to feed your seed, then yea I can see that. If IT is just a job for you then do what you do. But if you want an IT career, resetting passwords and unlocking accounts for 10 years is close to hell.

The vast majority of people that I have met working in the real world do not have the passion for this stuff like the people here. Its a job to most folks and not much more. Most of the people here really enjoy the technology and its a hobby and profession.

earweed

Yeah move up so those of us at the bottom of the rung can take your old spot.

Bl8ckr0uter

networker050184 wrote: »

The vast majority of people that I have met working in the real world do not have the passion for this stuff like the people here. Its a job to most folks and not much more. Most of the people here really enjoy the technology and its a hobby and profession.

You know, I have only worked in IT for 3+ (closing in on 4) years but I have seen the same sad thing. The passion for IT is gone, and the gumption for self study, certifying, discovering how to solve problems, is all but dead.
I've worked on 3 help desk for major fortune 500 companies and in the past 3 years I have had, including my current full and part time jobs, 4 full time jobs and 2 part time jobs (I have worked 2 jobs at a twice). Most of my jobs have been at large companies but I have worked at small places as well. Although the places have been different, the one thing that has held true is that people don't care about the T in IT anymore. A lot of the It pros I have met don't have a fire about them. Maybe its the layoffs or pay reductions, or increasing demand on IT pros, or sometimes lack of training, or the increased hours and stress or brain ****. I have watched more than 1 person whip out some TK test while I was reading and offer them to me. When I declined they looked at me like I was stupid. I have watch people who have become so complacent with their jobs that they refuse to learn what isn't needed for their jobs. I literally said to this guy "Hey man, you want to study for this network+ with me?" he told me "Why would I do that? It won't help me here." He limited his scope of knowledge to what would be beneficial to his current job and never stopped to think what could be.
When I left that job that guy and his friend asked me "Why would I want to leave?" (this was about 18 months ago...wow!) I told them I wanted to see something different, something new, I wanted to learn. They actually laughed at me. They kinda mocked me when I was doing my N+ and they didn't think it was possible for me to do the CCNA. I was out of there before I finished the latter but they later found out that I did.
Sorry for being so long winded but I had to say all that to prove my point. The moment you become complacent you die. You begin to fade into nothingness. You become a drone and in its final stages, you become so limited that you lose the desire to change. I knew a guy from that same job was a real standout. SMART GUY! He was very tech savvy and a very good resource. I told him, he should try to find a new gig because he can never live up to his potential if he stays. He said he didn't want to go because he didn't want to start over somewhere else. He told me he was scared. I wonder if he is still there.....

Devilsbane

I think it is the stress involved. Being responsible for the IT infrastructure of a fortune 500 company can be quite stressful. A former professor of mine says that 3 times in his career he has watched a coworker of his be carried out on a strecher from stress realted issues.

My professor himself is suffering from stress right now. His company is working with the new ipad's and he has been working 55-60 hour weeks for the past month or so. He has stopped studying for certifications,(no ambition, and no time) and his sidejob of being an adjunct professor is likely suffering as well. (He used to prepare 5 hours for a 4 hour class that he has already taught a dozen times.

Sometimes life can just suck the drive right out of you.

Edit: He is also the professor that stressed to never by happy with where you are at. The moment that you stop learning is the moment when you are within 5 years of retirement.

networker050184

Some people do it because they enjoy the work and some do it because they know they can make good money in IT. The ones that do it for the money only have no desire to continue learning whats not needed for the job. Just leaves more room for people that care to advance.

N2IT

Devilsbane wrote: »

I think it is the stress involved. Being responsible for the IT infrastructure of a fortune 500 company can be quite stressful. A former professor of mine says that 3 times in his career he has watched a coworker of his be carried out on a strecher from stress realted issues.

My professor himself is suffering from stress right now. His company is working with the new ipad's and he has been working 55-60 hour weeks for the past month or so. He has stopped studying for certifications,(no ambition, and no time) and his sidejob of being an adjunct professor is likely suffering as well. (He used to prepare 5 hours for a 4 hour class that he has already taught a dozen times.

Sometimes life can just suck the drive right out of you.

Edit: He is also the professor that stressed to never by happy with where you are at. The moment that you stop learning is the moment when you are within 5 years of retirement.

Great post


I'll piggyback off of what you wrote. I currently have 2 really good friends, highschool, college and now professional, both are IT directors for large companies 100,000+ people. Both make well into the 300,000 dollar range not including bonuses and I can tell you the farthest thing from their mind is certifications. I bring mine up to them and they will say "great job that will help" and encourage me usually. However they won't touch one with a 20 ft pole. They just don't have the time or energy to get them. Neither one of them have a cert between them, and only the one has a MBA, the other has a economics/finance double major bachelors. They are super bright guys and very charismatic, but 0 certs.

With all that being said they are extremely stressed out all the time. They go out drinking practically every night, tons of failed relationships, probably by choice. They play golf at Pebble Beach and take flights to Utah and Colorado to go snow skiing. I just think once you get to that level there is not point in getting certs. You already made it and now it's about living and having fun. Well.... and politics

My Ex Boss who I started this post about is complete different. No where near as stressed out as my friends, but he is in a lower capacity position.

2ndchance

Ashenwelt wrote: »

Er, if you have ten years in IT... you should be looking for another job. That is ridiculous unless you work in an INCREDIBLY high paying school.

You should read my post in this thread: http://www.techexams.net/forums/general-certification/55855-what-your-reason-pursuing-certifications-2.html

Basically knwminus described me pretty well in one his last posts. I lost most of my passion for IT early on. I was content to be moved into management and never thought about working somewhere else. I stoped learning new things. We fixed problems and addressed new products and features in a very haphazard manner. Things have definately changed in my world.

I agree with networker050184. Not everyone loves this stuff as much as we do. Now I come to work excited to learning something new or test something new.

I've developed more IT skills in the last 9 months than I had in the previous 9 years! Of course, that isn't saying much, considering how little I really knew. What my 8-9 wasted years taught me was the mindset to learn. I've seen, as many of us have, just how poorly an IT organization can run when no one is thinking proactively or about best practices. I can't tell you guys how many "aha" moments I have when studying for certs.

I agree with Devilsbanet that there are other benefits to a job other than pay. I get a LOT of time off, which helps me stay close to my kids. Still, I know my current position will have to start paying more or I'll have to leave. There's no way my family will survive long-term.

To answer Ashenwelt's comment, I definately have my ear to the ground in terms of locating a better paying job. Currently my job is excellent other than the pay. I don't have a lot of worry or stress, and I have access to a decent-sized Cisco/Microsoft test lab. I would, therefore, lose a lot of training perks if I leave now. Plus, I think my new boss genuinely cares about our team and she making a concerted effort to get our pay increased. Our superintendent has commented many times this year that he's amazed at how much smoother things are running this year. That at least gives me some hope...

My grandpa has told me many times that you almost have to change jobs every few years to increase your salary (this advice at least worked for him). I think my current employer probably thinks that I would never dream of leaving. That, I believe, is really working against me... I'll find out in just a few weeks whether or not I am going to get my pay bumped up.

Devilsbane

2ndchance wrote: »

My grandpa has told me many times that you almost have to change jobs every few years to increase your salary (this advice at least worked for him). I think my current employer probably thinks that I would never dream of leaving. That, I believe, is really working against me... I'll find out in just a few weeks whether or not I am going to get my pay bumped up.

The IT world is changing. You used to be rewarded for sticking with the same company for 20-30 years. Now hiring managers look for someone who is flexible, who is well rounded, and who has been all over the place.

A former instructor told me that moving to a new position is often the quickest way to a higher salary. If you like working where you are you can always tell your manager what you were offered and see what they do. But sometimes you are going to have to take the walk if you are going to talk the talk.

GeeLo

Devilsbane wrote: »

The IT world is changing. You used to be rewarded for sticking with the same company for 20-30 years. Now hiring managers look for someone who is flexible, who is well rounded, and who has been all over the place.

That ^ was very well said. and also to add.. managers look for someone who wears "many I.T. hats". It used to be "this guy does workstations, this guy does servers, and this guy does networking" ...

.. Now it's "this guy does everything."