How do you guys find jobs that have advancement?

tdean

I've noticed a lot of you talk about promotions, more responsibility, learning new things, moving to different departments etc.

Where are these jobs? I mean, how would i find a place that was structured in such a way that i'd be able to do my job, study, build new skills and move up the chain, so to speak? I understand some of you might say "In the city" or "at a financial company", but how would that work? i go in, and what.... ask to only do one job? i dont get it. Every place ive been i've had to do everything from help desk, to phones, to email, vpn's, website etc etc...

this probably sounds ridiculous to some of you, but i just dont know how the corporate world works i guess.

Mojo_666

tdean wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of you talk about promotions, more responsibility, learning new things, moving to different departments etc.

Where are these jobs? I mean, how would i find a place that was structured in such a way that i'd be able to do my job, study, build new skills and move up the chain, so to speak? I understand some of you might say "In the city" or "at a financial company", but how would that work? i go in, and what.... ask to only do one job? i dont get it. Every place ive been i've had to do everything from help desk, to phones, to email, vpn's, website etc etc...

this probably sounds ridiculous to some of you, but i just dont know how the corporate world works i guess.

Having been doing IT for 12 years I have only ever had 2 promotions and they were with the same company which happened to be growing at quite a pace and I just grew along with it.

In my experience if you want to move up quickly you need to move on.

mark_s0

And people moving on is how these promotions come about. In my experience, the companies I have worked for promote from within so when someone leaves say in infrastructure, they promote the person under him who has SOME infrastructure responsibilities whilst shadowing other experienced infrastructure staff. I'm not saying that's how all companies work, it's just from my personal experience.

I can't say i've seen many jobs put possible promotion opportunities into a job description so finding a company that will promote before getting an interview won't be easy. It's usually something I ask and find out about at interviews. I get bored with doing the same thing over and over so unless there's room to move in a company, I'll quickly move on elsewhere. I, like a lot of people in IT, are never satisfied with what they know or what they're doing and always looking to do more.

Turgon

tdean wrote: »

I've noticed a lot of you talk about promotions, more responsibility, learning new things, moving to different departments etc.

Where are these jobs? I mean, how would i find a place that was structured in such a way that i'd be able to do my job, study, build new skills and move up the chain, so to speak? I understand some of you might say "In the city" or "at a financial company", but how would that work? i go in, and what.... ask to only do one job? i dont get it. Every place ive been i've had to do everything from help desk, to phones, to email, vpn's, website etc etc...

this probably sounds ridiculous to some of you, but i just dont know how the corporate world works i guess.

Large corporations have a lot of different teams in IT that do specific things. Sole provider of IT services in a hands on sense tend to be more prevalent in smaller companies. It's good experience though but you want to move on from that. Apply for 2nd line jobs in whatever area you feel you have most to offer, servers or networks for example. Once you get into a larger company work your tail off so you get a reputation for doing good work. Then seek opportunities to get promoted within. If these do not emerge then move on to another company. There is sometimes inertia in large companies when it comes to promotion as the senior engineers and managers are often spent when it comes to ambition and are not going anyplace else fast. They hang on and this makes it difficult for you to find openings. Or you could go contracting like I did for 7 years, get boat loads of experience and then return to the permanent world and land a plumb job as a Lead Architect!

thenjduke

mark_s0 wrote: »

And people moving on is how these promotions come about. In my experience, the companies I have worked for promote from within so when someone leaves say in infrastructure, they promote the person under him who has SOME infrastructure responsibilities whilst shadowing other experienced infrastructure staff. I'm not saying that's how all companies work, it's just from my personal experience.

I can't say i've seen many jobs put possible promotion opportunities into a job description so finding a company that will promote before getting an interview won't be easy. It's usually something I ask and find out about at interviews. I get bored with doing the same thing over and over so unless there's room to move in a company, I'll quickly move on elsewhere. I, like a lot of people in IT, are never satisfied with what they know or what they're doing and always looking to do more.

Mark this is so true about IT

erpadmin

Mojo_666 wrote: »

In my experience if you want to move up quickly you need to move on.

+1! In my experience, that was the same. I have never stayed at a company for longer than 5 years. (This last place is an exception though, as I'm trying to finish up my bachelor's so that I can move on to at least a supervisory position).

There is just too much political crap people have to go through to advance. It's either you ____ some ___(_) [front or back action... ] or you move on. I choose the latter when feasible and if it's not then, like a grandmaster chess player, I wait patiently for an opening and then strike. But under no circumstances do I participate in the former.

thenjduke

erpadmin wrote: »

+1! In my experience, that was the same. I have never stayed at a company for longer than 5 years. (This last place is an exception though, as I'm trying to finish up my bachelor's so that I can move on to at least a supervisory position).

There is just too much political crap people have to go through to advance. It's either you ____ some ___(_) [front or back action... ] or you move on. I choose the latter when feasible and if it's not then, like a grandmaster chess player, I wait patiently for an opening and then strike. But under no circumstances do I participate in the former.

Take this advice strongly all. I agree I have not been at a place more then 4 to 5 years. I go there and learn all I can then move to the next place. My next move is either management where I am or leave and go to North Carolina, Texas, or Arizona.

Paul Boz

To understand promotions and advancements in one’s career you have to look at the big picture. There are really three primary ways to advance one’s career in IT. The method I see most frequently is “job hopping” and taking gradually larger and better paying jobs. This can be done quickly to really increase one’s income, but may raise serious red flags with potential employers. One of the primary reasons why my current employer chose to bring me on is my stable work history. They specifically ruled out individuals who job hopped because they don’t see them as worth investing in. I think the best chance for success here is to job hop to get through the lower level ranks then stick it out in a larger company.

Beyond job hopping, one can start at the bottom rank of a large company and work his or her way up. An example would be my first job. I started in technical support for an ISP when I was 18 and gradually worked my way up into the NOC center. If I would have stayed longer I would have probably moved into engineering. The main issue with this method is that often pay doesn’t match the promotion. I’ve seen others make much more money in the long run by going from job to job rather than taking promotions. If you start in tech support at $10.15/hour it’s pretty unlikely you’ll be adequately compensated when you get promoted.

Another method, and the one which I recommend the most, is getting certifications and education. I don’t put as much emphasis on education in IT specifically, but it’s still valuable. Certifications raise your bottom line value, period. Certs got me my last job and got me paid at my current one. IT is a flooded field so you have to differentiate yourself from other candidates. Getting certs is an incredible way to do that. If an employer is looking at two candidates and both have similar experience and skill levels, the one with the certification is going to get the nod in a tie breaker. Most certifications are very inexpensive compared to formal education so there is really no reason not to pursue them.

My advice is to combine these methods. Stay vigilant with certifications and continue looking for the best opportunities. I was at my first employer for five years because I found a good path to advancement and could pay my bills. When I realized that my path of advancement hit a brick wall I knew it was time to look for a new job. This satisfies the “climb the corporate ladders” method. At my last job I only lasted 20 months but it was an excellent stepping stone, both experience wise and certification wise. I would say that my last job satisfies the “job hopping” method. I would like to think that my current job will fit more in line with the “climb the corporate ladders” method because there appears to be a great path to advancement. One thing that is constant though, is my embracing of the certification method.

Mojo_666

Paul Boz wrote: »

They specifically ruled out individuals who job hopped because they don’t see them as worth investing in.

The irony is that people will job hop because they are not get invested in, and getting nothing out of the company.

I totally agree btw.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

To understand promotions and advancements in one’s career you have to look at the big picture. There are really three primary ways to advance one’s career in IT. The method I see most frequently is “job hopping” and taking gradually larger and better paying jobs. This can be done quickly to really increase one’s income, but may raise serious red flags with potential employers. One of the primary reasons why my current employer chose to bring me on is my stable work history. They specifically ruled out individuals who job hopped because they don’t see them as worth investing in. I think the best chance for success here is to job hop to get through the lower level ranks then stick it out in a larger company.

That's all fine and great, but respectfully, I disagree. My own employer found my resume suspect because I had job hopped and I was called on it. However, a colleague of mine had a great counter to the "job-hopping" arguement. It can definitely be sold that you have taken knowledge from each organization that you've been with and added skills to your repertoire that you would have never gained had you stayed with any particular organization instead of leaving it. That's one part of the sell. The other is that if one particular would offer the opportunity to learn AND grow as a IT professional than, of course, you would have happily stayed. This is what I stated on my last interview before my boss had expressed her opinion that she, is looking for someone who wasn't going to bounce after 2 years. I then listed each job on the resume and why I had to move on and they were all valid reasons (she must've thought so too, because I was hired two weeks later and I'm going on 5 years now next March! ). Make no mistake about it my friend, skills and positions have a shelf-life. There is always someone who will come in hungrier than you and will try to take your spot. Grow and earn, or stay stagnant and possibly obselete (and not earn). Congratulations on your new job, btw.

Paul Boz wrote: »

Another method, and the one which I recommend the most, is getting certifications and education. I don’t put as much emphasis on education in IT specifically, but it’s still valuable. Certifications raise your bottom line value, period. Certs got me my last job and got me paid at my current one. IT is a flooded field so you have to differentiate yourself from other candidates. Getting certs is an incredible way to do that. If an employer is looking at two candidates and both have similar experience and skill levels, the one with the certification is going to get the nod in a tie breaker. Most certifications are very inexpensive compared to formal education so there is really no reason not to pursue them.

Education is definitely valuable, on this I agree. I have PM experience, but it is really hard for me to get a PM role (or even a technical lead) without a degree. That's the only reason I'm still at my current employers now. Once I get a degree, I plan on seeing just where I can get a management role at with what will be over 15 years experience in IT (professionally, IT is all I know/all I've done....management in IT is definitely my next step). I also plan on getting a Masters "just for the heck of it" when I'm done with the degree. But everyone has a different plan, and I would never advocate for someone with a help desk job to stay there for 10 years (UNLESS HE REALLY ENJOYS IT). Sometimes, you gotta move on to move up.

Paul Boz

I then listed each job on the resume and why I had to move on and they were all valid reasons (she must've thought so too, because I was hired two weeks later and I'm going on 5 years now next March!

If you’re forced to change jobs due to legit issues (like at my last job, for example) that doesn’t really constitute job hopping. If you’ve had a slew of bad employers that’s one thing. Job hoppers often do not have a valid reason to leave, hence the bad image.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

If you’re forced to change jobs due to legit issues (like at my last job, for example) that doesn’t really constitute job hopping. If you’ve had a slew of bad employers that’s one thing. Job hoppers often do not have a valid reason to leave, hence the bad image.

If I had a resume from a guy who had 5-10 jobs in 2-3 years, it's going in the shredder. Now if I see a resume from a guy with 4 jobs in say 11-13 years with the average length of time of 3-5 years, then it's going to at least warrant a look.

If you are just starting out in this industry as either a Level 1/Level 2 tech, three years is pretty much all you need to start looking for the upgrade to Career Job two-point-O.

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

If I had a resume from a guy who had 5-10 jobs in 2-3 years, it's going in the shredder. Now if I see a resume from a guy with 4 jobs in say 11-13 years with the average length of time of 3-5 years, then it's going to at least warrant a look.

No offense but that is a very old school mentality. I have been working since I was 15 years old. I have had about 12 jobs in the last 8 years. Why? Well I have moved a few times (school and back home), work two jobs at once (3 times), changed jobs all together, worked some contract jobs, got laid off, and now I at the end of this month I will be back to working 1 job again. I think that to say, "Oh he has had too many jobs" is a haughty mentality. The job market today is much different that it was 25 years ago. My Dad starting working about that long ago and he has been with the government for more than 20 years. I know that I will probably never be at a job for that long, maybe not even a 4th of that. IMO it shouldn't matter how many jobs you have worked because no one gives you a job for life and you do not give your services for life.* I see employee development going out the window at a lot of companies as a cost saving measure anyway.

Ok and maybe 5-10 full time jobs in 2-3 years would be a lot. But if these are contracts (1 day - 1 week or longer) and this person is going out and working them, I don't see what the problem would be with that. On my resume, I make notations so that people will know which one of my jobs are contracts and which are full time. I also think it helps that my last full time job that I had, I stayed for 18 months.

Just my 0.02

*Insert random Dynamik's Mom joke here

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

No offense but that is a very old school mentality. I have been working since I was 15 years old. I have had about 12 jobs in the last 8 years. Why? Well I have moved a few times (school and back home), work two jobs at once (3 times), changed jobs all together, worked some contract jobs, got laid off, and now I at the end of this month I will be back to working 1 job again. I think that to say, "Oh he has had too many jobs" is a haughty mentality. The job market today is much different that it was 25 years ago. My Dad starting working about that long ago and he has been with the government for more than 20 years. I know that I will probably never be at a job for that long, maybe not even a 4th of that. IMO it shouldn't matter how many jobs you have worked because no one gives you a job for life and you do not give your services for life.* I see employee development going out the window at a lot of companies as a cost saving measure anyway.

Just my 0.02

*Insert random Dynamik's Mom joke here

I probably wasn't clear when I said that and I have no problem clarifying that now. You were/are a student, so you are going to have a couple of part-time jobs, and contract jobs (and that is certainly an exception to my statement, but more on that in a second). You even had a couple at the same time...

When I say I would shred a guy's resume with multiple jobs in a short amount of time, I meant if the guy had permanent positions, NO CONTRACT AND/OR PART TIME WORK. The length of contract jobs should definitely be stated in the resume and it should also state that it was a contract job so that you get that consideration.

I'm talking about the guy who has bounced from a PERMANENT full-time position to PERMANENT full-time position in a short amount of time (non-contract.) That is definitely a red flag because it tells an employer he's somewhat of a derelict and/or has some responsibility issues (or rather, irresponsibility issues.) Nothing old school/new school about that.

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

When I say I would shred a guy's resume with multiple jobs in a short amount of time, I meant if the guy had permanent positions, NO CONTRACT AND/OR PART TIME WORK. The length of contract jobs should definitely be stated in the resume and it should also be state that it was a contract job so that you get that consideration.

I'm talking about the guy who has bounced from PERMANENT full-time position to PERMANENT full-time position in a short amount of time (non-contra. That is definitely a red flag because it tells an employer he's somewhat of a derelict and/or has some responsibility issues (or rather, irresponsibility issues). Nothing old school/new school about that.

Ok. That is very different and I agree. But while we are somewhat on the topic, how long is the "right" amount of time to be at a job? If you know you are at a place where you can't move up, why shouldn't you leave after 1-2 years rather than stay for 3-5 years just so your resume is more "stable"?

Paul Boz

erpadmin wrote: »

I'm talking about the guy who has bounced from a PERMANENT full-time position to PERMANENT full-time position in a short amount of time (non-contract.) That is definitely a red flag because it tells an employer he's somewhat of a derelict and/or has some responsibility issues (or rather, irresponsibility issues.) Nothing old school/new school about that.

I don't count part time jobs like working at Best Buy or at the grocery store because they don't provide any professional insight. Do you know how silly it would be if I had Best Buy Sales Associate on my resume at this point? I agree with your assessment of what a job hopper is.

knwminus wrote: »

Ok. That is very different and I agree. But while we are somewhat on the topic, how long is the "right" amount of time to be at a job? If you know you are at a place where you can't move up, why shouldn't you leave after 1-2 years rather than stay for 3-5 years just so your resume is more "stable"?

That just depends on the job, honestly. If I made $50k/year and someone offered me $100k/year I don't care if my job is punching babies and watching TV all day, I'm leaving. You have to ask yourself how many times that type of exception can be made though. If you're solidly in a place without room for advancement and you have justified reasons for leaving its acceptable. My previous employer has a bad rep in my city so my current employer didn't really question why I was only there for 20 months.

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

If you know you are at a place where you can't move up, why shouldn't you leave after 1-2 years rather than stay for 3-5 years just so your resume is more "stable"?

You just answered your own question. It's all about the appearance of stability.

There is a certain amount of acceptance that due to the nature of our field, like IT, that folks will bounce awhile after a couple of years. Plus, it shows a maturity factor too. Three years always seemed "just right" to me, but now I'm staying put so that I can handle what I need to handle. To take a non-senior position because it pays a few grand more, just isn't worth it to me (while I'm currently employed, of course... ).

By the same token, 1-2 years isn't terrible either. And no one says you can't look for a job while you still have one either. I just wouldn't change jobs EVERY 1-2 years....but doing it once is certainly ok, as long as you got a legit, "diplomatic" reason.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

I don't count part time jobs like working at Best Buy or at the grocery store because they don't provide any professional insight. Do you know how silly it would be if I had Best Buy Sales Associate on my resume at this point? I agree with your assessment of what a job hopper is.

It's the same as adding your high school in "education." LMAO. (I don't have a degree, and I don't add my high school to education on my resume, but I put certs instead).

But no, I'm glad knwminus asked me to clarify that, because there are folks who do have multiple part time gigs/contract work...especially in this economy. But I was specifically talking about what my assessment was...

Bl8ckr0uter

Paul Boz wrote: »

That just depends on the job, honestly. If I made $50k/year and someone offered me $100k/year I don't care if my job is punching babies and watching TV all day, I'm leaving.

I'd have to know the baby punching to tv watching ratio before I could make a decision

erpadmin wrote: »

It's the same as adding your high school in "education." LMAO. (I don't have a degree, and I don't add my high school to education on my resume, but I put certs instead).

This is interesting. I am only 4 years out of HS and that's about how much IT experience I have. I put my HS diploma under education although I am working towards a degree. When I get my A.A.S I will take my HS off but for right now it is really the only "education" I have.

Paul Boz

knwminus wrote: »

I'd have to know the baby punching to tv watching ratio before I could make a decision

We're talking wholesale Super Punchout style baby punching. While watching TV at the same time.

Paul Boz

knwminus wrote: »

This is interesting. I am only 4 years out of HS and that's about how much IT experience I have. I put my HS diploma under education although I am working towards a degree. When I get my A.A.S I will take my HS off but for right now it is really the only "education" I have.

Have you tried any college at all? If not, at least start taking some classes at a local community college. From talking to you you're clearly smart enough to fly through low-level CC courses. That way you can 1.) put some education on your resume, and 2.) give the impression that it means a lot to you. I won't say education is over-rated, but my current employer waived a bachelors requirement for me to work here. People are generally understanding if you can demonstrate that you care about education but haven't been given the fair chances to finish it. In my case (as with many others) I had the choice of working to keep my lights on or go to school.

If you want a great example actually, talk to Dynamik. He's like 45 years old and finishing his degree online. It's a worthless degree in Wildlife Management (slang for his mom's pimp) but still a degree.

Heero

If you don't have a College diploma (AAS, BS, etc...) You really should list you high school diploma. Some companies have minimum education requirements that require a high school diploma or GED, just like some companies will require a 4 year college degree. I agree that it should be taken off after the first college degree you get.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

If you want a great example actually, talk to Dynamik. He's like 45 years old and finishing his degree online. It's a worthless degree in Wildlife Management (slang for his mom's pimp) but still a degree.

There are a lot of folks who have degrees in non Computer-related fields that range from Help Desk to IT managers. Folks just like the degree requirement, in part, so that they can use it as another filter. But you are totally right; an education is valued, and in my case it was either have lights on, or graduate "on-time." At least I get to go back.

Bl8ckr0uter

Paul Boz wrote: »

Have you tried any college at all? If not, at least start taking some classes at a local community college. Fr

Oh lol ok now I need to clarify. I am enrolled, and presently 3 quarters from completing an A.A.S in Network Engineering (aka CCNA+ Gen Eds ). What I meant was that my HS diploma was my only diploma I have completed. When I fill out apps I usually put "some college" but the highest level achieved is High School Diploma . I don't think it has hurt me too much though. When I get my A.A.S, my fellow classmates (most are around my age) will just be starting off with A+/N+ and trying to find those types of jobs and I plan to have my CCNP and working on VCP and trying to find those type of jobs.

erpadmin

Heero wrote: »

If you don't have a College diploma (AAS, BS, etc...) You really should list you high school diploma. Some companies have minimum education requirements that require a high school diploma or GED, just like some companies will require a 4 year college degree. I agree that it should be taken off after the first college degree you get.

It's assumed that you have a high school diploma. I have never been asked if I had a high school diploma, and at my age, I pretty much should. I have listed the schools I have attended, and that pretty much satisfied that I had least had a GED. It's like listing "References Upon Request..." yet another thing that's a given that you really don't need to list on a resume (because you're going to be providing that anyway if you want an offer on whatever application you fill out.)

Paul Boz

knwminus wrote: »

Oh lol ok now I need to clarify. I am enrolled, and presently 3 quarters from completing an A.A.S in Network Engineering (aka CCNA+ Gen Eds ). What I meant was that my HS diploma was my only diploma I have completed. When I fill out apps I usually put "some college" but the highest level achieved is High School Diploma . I don't think it has hurt me too much though. When I get my A.A.S, my fellow classmates (most are around my age) will just be starting off with A+/N+ and trying to find those types of jobs and I plan to have my CCNP and working on VCP and trying to find those type of jobs.

Just leave off the HS diploma and put "some college, currently enrolled."

Bl8ckr0uter

Paul Boz wrote: »

Just leave off the HS diploma and put "some college, currently enrolled."

Interesting. I never would have thought to do that. It is probably way easier for you since you have 7 years of exp and a **** ton of certs though. Although now that I think about it, my current job wanted a BSCS.

dynamik

Paul Boz wrote: »

If you want a great example actually, talk to Dynamik. He's like 45 years old and finishing his degree online. It's a worthless degree in Wildlife Management (slang for his mom's pimp) but still a degree.

You forgot to include that my specialization is Large Mammals.

Paul Boz wrote: »

Just leave off the HS diploma and put "some college, currently enrolled."

Yep, I do something similar. I put the school and degree but instead of the dates of attendance I put Expected May, 2011. I've never had HS on my resume.

Paul Boz

You've still got the best avatar on TE btw.

[Deleted User]

Paul Boz wrote: »

You've still got the best avatar on TE btw.

What he said.

erpadmin

knwminus wrote: »

Interesting. I never would have thought to do that. It is probably way easier for you since you have 7 years of exp and a **** ton of certs though. Although now that I think about it, my current job wanted a BSCS.

One other reason why you shouldn't put HS on your resume...

AGE!

With the average age of college grads INCREASING, not a bad deal to include year of graduation or expected date of graduating college. HS, most kids on average (ON AVERAGE) are 18 (I was 17, my best friend was 19 and one genius was 20 in my class...) so it would be a good indicator of how old I am if I put my year of graduation on the resume (and I would imagine, you too.....)

Giving my age if I'm either in my early 20s or in my 40s (hell, even in my 30s) is not something I want to do if I'm dealing with a potential ageist. If I leave HS out, then he has to deal with my skills on the resume plus the list of schools I have attended to say "some college."

So yeah, take HS out! LOL