Is it who you know or what you know?

N2IT

Where I currently work at it seems if you don't get promoted within the first year you are yesterdays news and aren't viewed all that highly. Of course that is just from my view point, but yesterday we got the news one of our contractors who just recently graduated from college would be moving on. He was there for 3-4 months and now he will be a junior SA for a LARGE defense contracting agency. The pay bump is insanely large for this person. We are talking twice his salary.

This isn't another "don't waste your time unless you know someone thread". Instead it's a trending thread about employement

So my question is this. Do you really have a small window in IT when working a low level entry job like Service Desk or Operations/Data Center until you are a non factor? Or do you almost have to know someone to get a good job? Is this the norm or am I just being naive?

I know personally 4 people in the last 2 years who were either promoted internally or externally and all 4 of them knew someone. Two were internal both had parents work for the company and shot through the ranks and the other two knew of people outside of work. One is for an SA position and the other a Telecom job. Neither had certifications.

Only one who didn't have connections on his own and he had to go back to school and get his bachelors and then his master, which he is almost done with. Plus he has A+ and N+. He also spent 3 years in the service desk mostly in tier 2. So he obviously didn't get preferential treatment, but still........ That's one out of 5.

Mojo_666

I had help once when I was working for an ISP, I was studying everyday for a year or so and a mate of mine recomended to his manager that he interview me for a 1/2 line support position. I was still up against a 10 others but I got the job, that was 11 years ago, since then I just had to work hard and move arround to go up the ranks.

My advice to anyone is do not stay in your current job if you want to move up the ranks, move on and set your own time scales for promotion.

N2IT

Mojo_666 wrote: »

I had help once when I was working for an ISP, I was studying everyday for a year or so and a mate of mine recomended to his manager that he interview me for a 1/2 line support position. I was still up against a 10 others but I got the job, that was 11 years ago, since then I just had to work hard and move arround to go up the ranks.

My advice to anyone is do not stay in your current job if you want to move up the ranks, move on and set your own time scales for promotion.

I think bouncing around is probably the best strategy in our global market. There is some anxiety that comes with that tactic, but as of late, it seems to be the most successful job model.

shaqazoolu

I think it's a little of both. The guy that hired me at my last job ended up leaving a few months after he hired me and came to my current company. A couple of months later, he called me and asked me if I would want to come over with him since I understood what he was trying to do from the old place. It was a lateral move, but I had been interested in security for a while and I figured this was about a good a shot as I was going to get to get into the field. In that sense, it was definitely who I knew that got me the job, but I like to think that my performance at my old job is was made him want to call me instead of any of the other 8 people on my team to come over with him.

Within 6 months of being here, he promoted me to a position that I felt like I was nowhere near qualified for. I don't think I deserved it at the time, but I like to think that over the last year and a half I've shown that I'm capable of holding my own in this position, even if I'm not the most experienced guy here.

thenjduke

I have always moved up by moving on to other companies.

dynamik

When I was looking for a job, I had three offers come in within 24 hours of each other (after some previous discussions/meetings, obviously), and those were all because of people I knew. One place (the job I took) didn't even bother meeting me in person or asking me a single technical question because my reference was so strong.

I clearly wouldn't have gotten that far if I didn't have the knowledge/skills to back it up, but I also would have never had the opportunity to present myself had I not had those connections. Online communities such as this site are great way to start making connections as are things like user groups. The thing is though, you can't just be a member, you have to participate. That could be helping other people out here or doing presentations at user groups. Have a blog, create CBTs, showcase your knowledge and abilities in some way.

erpadmin

Out of the 4 jobs I've had in IT, 2 of them were because I knew someone (1st and 3rd). The 2nd and 4th (current) were gotten on my own by moving on and up.

Connections do have an importance in networking with the right people. But they can only get you in the door. Only you can make it possible to stay inside and it's always up to you to do what you have to do.

I seriously have to spend some time working on my resume...I keep saying that, but it's definitely in my mind now to so. I'll do it by end of November.

But I can't waste valuable energy on worrying who's making more than me, blah blah blah. If anything, I redirect that energy doing stuff like earning certs and a degree. Then, coupled with the experience I have, I really have no excuse to improve my position.

Countryboi

when i worked for the help desk at a major retail chain man it was always who you know....they didnt care if you knew your head from your ass cause they felt they could train anyone to do anything plus they could pay you nothing to do it...i knew a secretary with only a high school diploma working as a business analyst or people that came straight from the stores with no exp or certs to the server team.....i just learned to play the game would have worked out too if my current boss at the time didnt hate me.......but the most important thing about who you know is it always helps to be a female and easy on the eyes.

earweed

I just got a line on a job from someone through here so even being here on TE can help. It'll take some time before I really know anything about it as I have to wait for the interim clearance to go through. Hopefully that goes through with no problem.
I also have some inside connects for a helpdesk job with the VA, now that would be a good job. The only thing about the VA job is that the Pay, when moving up, is so good. The bad thing is that even to get to tier II practically requires a masters. If I were to get the VA job I would just go the WGU route for my masters.
Who you know can definitely help.

erpadmin

Countryboi wrote: »

but the most important thing about who you know is it always helps to be a female and easy on the eyes.

I'll say this much...at my third job, someone who met the above criteria was promoted to management after I left my third job...her only redeeming quality was that she was a boss' favorite and of course it was rumored that she possessed a certain type of skill that would aid someone like her to move up the ranks very quickly. I do want to point out, however, that I have worked with very COMPETENT, WELL LIKED and VERY ATTRACTIVE females throughout my career who were never the subject of such rumors (or facts, as in the above case, in so many words she admited as much...). Personally, I don't care who you are, or what you do outside or inside the job...as long as you're competent, likeable and have a good work ethic, that's pretty much ok with me.

The sad thing is, while she did get the promotion, she didn't get the salary to match and still doesn't have it. New administration meant salary freezes, and I was able to surpass her at least in that regard.

uhtrinity

Although I had the qualifications I got my current job based on who I knew. There wasn't even a formal interview as I started as a consultant, then network and technology designer, then Tech Coordinator / Teacher.

Prior to that I had nailed quite a few interviews, but lost out to people who were friends or relatives of the people hiring or people who already worked in those departments. Guess that is a drawback of living in a smaller city.

eansdad

thenjduke wrote: »

I have always moved up by moving on to other companies.

Same....I could get a Sr title and get a $4-5k bump but that is about it here.

cablegod

Sadly, in a lot of cases it's 80% who you know and 20% what you know, or even 100% who you know. Down here in the Southeast, we call it "The Good 'Ole Boy Network".

N2IT

cablegod wrote: »

Sadly, in a lot of cases it's 80% who you know and 20% what you know, or even 100% who you know. Down here in the Southeast, we call it "The Good 'Ole Boy Network".

cablegod I am glad you responded to my post. You know I wanted to send out some "feelers" for this topic, but this is the answer I have thought in my head the whole time.

In reality if you can learn at an average level, which most people can, you can learn a job if given the opportunity to do the job. So what it boils down too is who you know to give you the chance to learn on the job. Certs are great and they do open doors no question, especially with compiled with experience. But when the smoke clears it comes down to who you know.

Play the game is all you can do!

forkvoid

cablegod wrote: »

Sadly, in a lot of cases it's 80% who you know and 20% what you know, or even 100% who you know. Down here in the Southeast, we call it "The Good 'Ole Boy Network".

And if you don't attend every SEC game, hunt, fish or drink copious amounts of cheap beer and whiskey... well, good luck finding a job. I hate that dang Network.

So far, I've only gotten two jobs through connections... the rest have been hard work on my part. I have a feeling that I'm missing out on the best jobs though.

loxleynew

Both mine have been through hard work and no connections but I have seen people move on fast just through who they know.

Basically if you don't know someone your only chances really at moving up the ranks is to move on to new jobs a lot which is still hard because you are getting beat out by people that know the interviewers. It's a crazy cycle that requires a lot of luck sometimes.

N2IT

forkvoid wrote: »

And if you don't attend every SEC game, hunt, fish or drink copious amounts of cheap beer and whiskey... well, good luck finding a job. I hate that dang Network.

So far, I've only gotten two jobs through connections... the rest have been hard work on my part. I have a feeling that I'm missing out on the best jobs though.

I have the same feeling as well.

dadaji

I think it is more about 'who you know' and less about 'what you know', if it is a entry to mid level position, more of entry than mid level.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

Where I currently work at it seems if you don't get promoted within the first year you are yesterdays news and aren't viewed all that highly. Of course that is just from my view point, but yesterday we got the news one of our contractors who just recently graduated from college would be moving on. He was there for 3-4 months and now he will be a junior SA for a LARGE defense contracting agency. The pay bump is insanely large for this person. We are talking twice his salary.

This isn't another "don't waste your time unless you know someone thread". Instead it's a trending thread about employement

So my question is this. Do you really have a small window in IT when working a low level entry job like Service Desk or Operations/Data Center until you are a non factor? Or do you almost have to know someone to get a good job? Is this the norm or am I just being naive?

I know personally 4 people in the last 2 years who were either promoted internally or externally and all 4 of them knew someone. Two were internal both had parents work for the company and shot through the ranks and the other two knew of people outside of work. One is for an SA position and the other a Telecom job. Neither had certifications.

Only one who didn't have connections on his own and he had to go back to school and get his bachelors and then his master, which he is almost done with. Plus he has A+ and N+. He also spent 3 years in the service desk mostly in tier 2. So he obviously didn't get preferential treatment, but still........ That's one out of 5.

That happens at companies large and small. I worked with someone who was at Cisco Advanced Services for a while and he said if you didnt get the CCIE within 2 years you were seen as low hanging fruit that lacked ambition. Then again Cisco SE's have every insentive to prepare for and pass the test on the company dollar. Most CCIE's work for Cisco.

If you are in a corporate they usually have a fast track. If you are not on it you generally dont get fast tracked. My own path has been self serving and successful without any doors opened for me, so it can be done if you are prepared to go where the money and the experience is to be had, and absorb the stress of reaching a little beyond your capabilities at the time.

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

That happens at companies large and small. I worked with someone who was at Cisco Advanced Services for a while and he said if you didnt get the CCIE within 2 years you were seen as low hanging fruit that lacked ambition. Then again Cisco SE's have every insentive to prepare for and pass the test on the company dollar. Most CCIE's work for Cisco.

If you are in a corporate they usually have a fast track. If you are not on it you generally dont get fast tracked. My own path has been self serving and successful without any doors opened for me, so it can be done if you are prepared to go where the money and the experience is to be had, and absorb the stress of reaching a little beyond your capabilities at the time.

When you say on this fast track are you talking about knowing someone or displaying an unusal coveted skillset or something else? Just curious what gets you on the fast track. I know what you mean about fast track I was just wondering if you had some examples.

Devilsbane

Who you know is much more important. Unfortunately for me, I wasn't born with any famous friends that can get me into places. But I use what I know to impress people and then down the road then maybe these people can get me somewhere.

Just recently a former professor of mine introduced me to his former boss who is pretty high up in the company I'm working at now. Maybe this will be the start of a transfer for me?

Moral of the story, never burn a bridge unless you have no other choice.

Paul Boz

My entry-level IT job came by way of technical support at a local ISP. I got the job through a good friend who also worked there. I stayed there for five years so that worked out well from a reference standpoint. At my last job I got recommended by another friend and didn't even have much of a technical interview. I didn't know jack about security but had a willingness to learn. My current job is the first job where I didn't have an "in" and just won it on my own merits. Its the most rewarding, obviously.

dynamik wrote: »

One place (the job I took) didn't even bother meeting me in person or asking me a single technical question because my reference was so strong.

I'm still proud that my clout was so powerful. How the hell I got Mr. Vibram Five Fingers a job without a technical interview I will NEVER figure out, hahaha.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

When you say on this fast track are you talking about knowing someone or displaying an unusal coveted skillset or something else? Just curious what gets you on the fast track. I know what you mean about fast track I was just wondering if you had some examples.

Most large companies have a fast track. Generally graduates are recruited to enter it. 10000 applicants, 50 grads accepted, that kind of thing. Also people spotted early on as having star potential. They get escalated along. Then people who have daddy on the inside. That helps too They generally get swamped with responsibility from the get go. If they cut it they quickly rise up the ranks. If they dont they get a decent job and hang around in relatively easy project management roles.

You probably wouldn't find fast track folks hanging out on TE which is primarily the province of grunts like us working the career ladder. They are far too busy and too stressed handling big dollar budgets and dodging a bullet to participate on forums.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

My current job is the first job where I didn't have an "in" and just won it on my own merits. Its the most rewarding, obviously.

Forgive me, but wasn't shaqa the one who recruited you into your current job? That would be considered an "in", no? (Though I will never dispute that you didn't earn your job on your merits...just saying I was under the impression he had been your "in".)

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

Most large companies have a fast track. Generally graduates are recruited to enter it. 10000 applicants, 50 grads accepted, that kind of thing. Also people spotted early on as having star potential. They get escalated along. Then people who have daddy on the inside. That helps too They generally get swamped with responsibility from the get go. If they cut it they quickly rise up the ranks. If they dont they get a decent job and hang around in relatively easy project management roles.

You probably wouldn't find fast track folks hanging out on TE which is primarily the province of grunts like us working the career ladder. They are far too busy and too stressed handling big dollar budgets and dodging a bullet to participate on forums.

So eloquently put!

Slowhand

I've fallen on both sides of the fence in the past.

---

For my very first IT-related gig, working at the CompUSA tech shop, a friend of mine was already working there and talked me up to the tech manager long before I ever came in to interview. The manager and I had a 5-minute interview, but then I was expected to jump in with both feet the first day and build a custom gaming-rig. I get the feeling he was testing me.

In my most recent job, working for a video game company, I was fortunate enough to be working with an old cohort from the CompUSA days. He was already there as the sole in-house IT admin, and had been pushing to have me first come in as a contractor to help him set up his Windows 2008 domain, then as a full-time admin to help him with projects. This time, I was grilled pretty thoroughly in a series of interviews, but it was fairly informal mainly because this company isn't used to hiring IT staff, their usual applicants are either game developers or designers.

There have been two other jobs, however, where I didn't know anyone going in and I was still hired.

The first was with a datacenter and ISP, doing some work as a NOC technician. I was brought in to speak with the VP and their Sr. systems engineer for about an hour. Once they were finished with me, they decided to move up my second interview to right there and then, sitting me in a room with all their other systems engineers to ask me random tech-questions until I cried uncle. I tried to answer all their questions as honestly as I could, and in the end I beat out about 25 other applicants for the job. Most of those applicants seemed better-qualified than I did, holding better certs and Bachelor's degrees - I just had a fresh MCSA under my belt, no degree - so I must've done something right during my interview.

Another company I worked for is notorious for their difficult hiring process, they're an outsourcing shop that works primarily with small and medium-sized businesses to provide a replacement for in-house IT staff. Again, I had no degree and only a couple of certs at this point, but I scored very high on their competency tests and apparently did well during my face-to-face interviews with the various high-level managers and got a job as systems administrator, (working above the helpdesk, but below the project managers). The guy they got to replace me after I left holds an MBA, more IT certs than you can shake a stick at, and has 20 years' experience working as a senior-level or C-level IT director for various large companies, so I figure I must've at least been reasonably competent if I handled that same job for well over a year.

---

I guess the moral of the story is this: it doesn't matter if you know someone or you know something, the important thing is to take all the advantages you can get and work them into opportunities for yourself. Sometimes you have a friend of family member who can get you an interview, sometimes you get lucky and have a sit-down with upper-management, but at the end of the day it's still going to be your own skills and your own experience that carries you.

Paul Boz

erpadmin wrote: »

Forgive me, but wasn't shaqa the one who recruited you into your current job? That would be considered an "in", no? (Though I will never dispute that you didn't earn your job on your merits...just saying I was under the impression he had been your "in".)

No, he works at my previous employer. He got me in touch with the recruiter who found me my job. I would not consider a recruiter an "in" as you are being tested on your own merits. The recruiter is just proxying job opportunities to you based on your skillset. Shaquazulu has never worked where I work.

erpadmin

Paul Boz wrote: »

No, he works at my previous employer. He got me in touch with the recruiter who found me my job. I would not consider a recruiter an "in" as you are being tested on your own merits. The recruiter is just proxying job opportunities to you based on your skillset. Shaquazulu has never worked where I work.

Yes, that is different then. He just pointed you in the right direction and you basically had to sell yourself once you got to that point. Thanks for the reclarification.

shaqazoolu

You guys are really terrible at spelling my name.

Sadly, that's not much different from real life.

erpadmin

shaqazoolu wrote: »

You guys are really terrible at spelling my name.

Sadly, that's not much different from real life.

People misspell my last name a lot (because it's a more common spelling...and people swear I am misspelling my own name on purpose... )

When I looked at it, I did shorten it properly, in my defense. LOL. It was out of laziness to just go back and put the zoolu...but I knew it wasn't Zulu.

GAngel

It all depends where you are on the food chain. If i were looking to land a directorship at company Y or higher i'd contact alumni from school X who now work at company Y and have them meet me for lunch along with the head of HR or a SVP. I've also done golf rounds, workouts, charity benefits, Dinners, socials etc. In the last few years the only time someone has asked for my resume was after I was hired to get it on file.

On the tech side i've been grilled by 5 different layers over 3 months for 1 job.