high end certifications without relavent experience.

puppy001

if some gets high end certifications (mcse,ccnp,mcsa) without the relavent experience do you think they shine with employers or???

N2IT

puppy001 wrote: »

if some gets high end certifications (mcse,ccnp,mcsa) without the relavent experience do you think they shine with employers or???

No I don't personally. I feel your certifications should mirror up to your experience level some what. I am not against someone getting an advanced certification in hopes of moving up in that direction. However, with that said, if someone has MCSE, MCITP, CCNA, CCNP, ITIL Expert and has 3 months of IT experience that looks extremely weird and you probably won't get hired.

One of my past jobs we had a guy come in with several certifications, I'm talking around 7+ one was a CCNP. He had a total of 3 months work experience in IT and had a huge employment gap of 2 years. He wasn't hired.

puppy001

the thing is certifications and i.t is over crowded everywhere u look there is always a mcse or a ccna

N2IT

puppy001 wrote: »

the thing is certifications and i.t is over crowded everywhere u look there is always a mcse or a ccna

This might be true, but the question was about obtaining high level certs with no experience.

Slowhand

It really depends on one thing: hands-on experience.

If you're prepared to study and use real equipment, really lab out all the things you're reading about, you do represent the skillset of the certs fairly well. While doing work in a home-lab isn't quite as good as having on the job experience, it's better than nothing at all. It's worth mentioning that you'll be doing a lot of on-the-job training even after you work on these things at home, since you're learning Microsoft/Cisco's own way of doing things and not necessarily real-world scenarios.

It will still be difficult to get hired if you've got the certs but little or no experience. You'll have to focus on getting entry-level jobs at first. Chances are, with the skills you're learning in your studies, you can move up the ladder fairly quickly and start working with more interesting things ahead of those who are still plugging away at their MCITP, CCNP, etc.

Good luck with your studies, and don't hesitate to post on the forum if you have questions or need some direction on specific technologies or exam topics.

Anonymouse

N2IT wrote: »

No I don't personally. I feel your certifications should mirror up to your experience level some what. I am not against someone getting an advanced certification in hopes of moving up in that direction. However, with that said, if someone has MCSE, MCITP, CCNA, CCNP, ITIL Expert and has 3 months of IT experience that looks extremely weird and you probably won't get hired.

One of my past jobs we had a guy come in with several certifications, I'm talking around 7+ one was a CCNP. He had a total of 3 months work experience in IT and had a huge employment gap of 2 years. He wasn't hired.

He probably aquired most of those certs during that huge employment gap. I know a lot of people getting MCSE and CCNA while being unemployed for 1+ years. I sort of want to tell them to try and find an entry-level job or volunteer somewhere to get experience first but at the same time I don't want to discourage people.

N2IT

Anonymouse wrote: »

He probably aquired most of those certs during that huge employment gap. I know a lot of people getting MCSE and CCNA while being unemployed for 1+ years. I sort of want to tell them to try and find an entry-level job or volunteer somewhere to get experience first but at the same time I don't want to discourage people.

I am a work first guy. I think the best way to learn is to actually get your hands dirty. If that means ripping open computers or answering phones then do it. The problem I have with people without jobs who cert up is that they sometimes get in a rut and continue to cert and never find a gig. Eventually they get to the point where the have 10 certs CCNA MSCE etc and feel they are entitled to skip helpdesk or data center and jump into a network admin or SA. That just isn't real world. You will still have to put your time in regardless. Maybe you are one of the lucky ones. But if you are, you won't have an employment gap and you won't need certifications.

I got news for some of those people, those skills only translate maybe 20% to the actual job. Knowing the infrastructure and how the position is governed is a large part of the position. And no IT book can teach that.

Experience > Certs all day everyday.

N2IT

Slowhand wrote: »

It really depends on one thing: hands-on experience.

If you're prepared to study and use real equipment, really lab out all the things you're reading about, you do represent the skillset of the certs fairly well. While doing work in a home-lab isn't quite as good as having on the job experience, it's better than nothing at all. It's worth mentioning that you'll be doing a lot of on-the-job training even after you work on these things at home, since you're learning Microsoft/Cisco's own way of doing things and not necessarily real-world scenarios.

It will still be difficult to get hired if you've got the certs but little or no experience. You'll have to focus on getting entry-level jobs at first. Chances are, with the skills you're learning in your studies, you can move up the ladder fairly quickly and start working with more interesting things ahead of those who are still plugging away at their MCITP, CCNP, etc.

Good luck with your studies, and don't hesitate to post on the forum if you have questions or need some direction on specific technologies or exam topics.

Slow:

I agree with what you are saying, I just don't want to see someone keep trying to get that last cert to make them worthy for an IT position. It seems like this forums has a few members like that.

I went into helpdesk with a management degree and a bards tongue. I didn't know how to map a network drive or recreate windows profile. I learned and studied hard. Eventually I became a good technican.

My point is get the bare minimum cert and go to work

Slowhand

Slowhand wrote: »

It will still be difficult to get hired if you've got the certs but little or no experience. You'll have to focus on getting entry-level jobs at first. Chances are, with the skills you're learning in your studies, you can move up the ladder fairly quickly and start working with more interesting things ahead of those who are still plugging away at their MCITP, CCNP, etc.

Way ahead of you, N2IT.

N2IT

Slowhand wrote: »

Way ahead of you, N2IT.

Hey sometimes I miss things

I am in agreement though.

Slowhand

Yup, only experience entitles you to a higher-level position. Well, save for possibly holding a PhD or. . . well, nepotism.

The advantage you gain in studying for certs when you don't have a whole lot of experience is that, while you may have to be a helpdesk admin or jr level sysadmin, you're able to take on more responsibilities than many of your contemporaries because you have already studied the things that the more advanced guys are helping you with. Generally, this is the best way to move up within a company once you have your foot in the door with an entry-level gig.

Bl8ckr0uter

N2IT wrote: »

My point is get the bare minimum cert and go to work

I am not sure how I feel about this last statement. Lets say for instance you are applying for a CCNA or an MCSA (or MCITP:SA) level job. Well lets say you have a CCNP or an MCSE (or MCITP:EA). In most cases, that shouldn't hurt you. If you have a MCM or CCIE obviously that would look really bad but getting a CCNP or MCSE (or MCITP:EA) shouldn't hurt you in your job search. Worse comes to worse you can always not list them.

I am considering going for my CCNP. I have about 6 months of pure networking experience and another 5 months of networking responsibilities. At what point do I say its CCNP time? At what point do I say I have MCSE (MCITP:EA) level experience? You have to make that call because if you wait around for experience to find you, you may never get that level of experience. Helpdesk can be null routes and I know plenty of people with 6, 7, 8 and even 10+ years of helpdesk experience and will probably never get to CCNP or MCSE (MCITP:EA) level.

Forsaken_GA

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

At what point do I say its CCNP time?

About the time you realize you really hate working with Microsoft software and want to get as far away from desktop and server support as you possibly can!

Or maybe that's just me.

Bl8ckr0uter

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

About the time you realize you really hate working with Microsoft software and want to get as far away from desktop and server support as you possibly can!

Or maybe that's just me.

Dude I wish it was that easy lol.

N2IT

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I am not sure how I feel about this last statement. Lets say for instance you are applying for a CCNA or an MCSA (or MCITP:SA) level job. Well lets say you have a CCNP or an MCSE (or MCITP:EA). In most cases, that shouldn't hurt you. If you have a MCM or CCIE obviously that would look really bad but getting a CCNP or MCSE (or MCITP:EA) shouldn't hurt you in your job search. Worse comes to worse you can always not list them.

I am considering going for my CCNP. I have about 6 months of pure networking experience and another 5 months of networking responsibilities. At what point do I say its CCNP time? At what point do I say I have MCSE (MCITP:EA) level experience? You have to make that call because if you wait around for experience to find you, you may never get that level of experience. Helpdesk can be null routes and I know plenty of people with 6, 7, 8 and even 10+ years of helpdesk experience and will probably never get to CCNP or MCSE (MCITP:EA) level.

You make some valid points. I personally feel that experience is where it's at. Again I think certifications are great I wish I could have every single one just for the collection factor lol. But in reality, according to me , less is more. Get some certifications, but don't waste a majority of your time on them. Get into a position you can grow if you can. Once you are in that position learn the job. Spend your time learning the job.

Repo Man

I see no problem going after higher end certs with no experience. Easier to get promoted from an entry level job or start out a higher wage.

erpadmin

N2IT wrote: »

You make some valid points. I personally feel that experience is where it's at. Again I think certifications are great I wish I could have every single one just for the collection factor lol. But in reality, according to me , less is more. Get some certifications, but don't waste a majority of your time on them. Get into a position you can grow if you can. Once you are in that position learn the job. Spend your time learning the job.

It's post like these that really make you my favorite business analyst. LOL! Seriously, I agree with this a gazillion percent.

I am sure this will be another experience trumps cert thread, but this post and his earlier one that I repped, makes the most sense as to why it is more important to LEARN the technology you are supporting instead of focusing 100% on your cert. At the end of the day, stable and long experience will matter. If you keep "paper chasin'", (be it money or certs), you will seriously have wasted valuable time growing into your career. A CCNP with less than 1 year of real experience Vs. a CCNA with 5 years of great real world experience. My money is on the latter.

There's "book smart", then there's "cert smart", and then there's "real world smart."

That last guy is the guy that tends to get hired.

Psoasman

Slowhand wrote: »

The advantage you gain in studying for certs when you don't have a whole lot of experience is that, while you may have to be a helpdesk admin or jr level sysadmin, you're able to take on more responsibilities than many of your contemporaries because you have already studied the things that the more advanced guys are helping you with. Generally, this is the best way to move up within a company once you have your foot in the door with an entry-level gig.

I started working at my current employer with the MCSA almost done. I self-studied and finished up the MCSE with virtual machines, textbooks, technet, this forum of course , and by asking questions of our admins. I get to do little work on servers, but by practicing with virtual machines and test labs, I can stay current.
Our bosses approve of us spending spare time working on certs and improving our knowledge. You never know when a position might open up, or a new one created. If you have shown initiative to learn more on your own, it can only benefit you.

Forsaken_GA

Repo Man wrote: »

I see no problem going after higher end certs with no experience. Easier to get promoted from an entry level job or start out a higher wage.

I agree. It's all about motivation. If you'e on a helpdesk job for 5 to 10 years, and you've never gone for any higher certifications, that's not a problem with you not being promoted, that's a problem with you not being motivated.

Obviously having work experience makes things alot better, but having the certs makes it more likely that someone will take a chance on you than not. The last few years it's been experience experience experience because of the down economy, but the job market will recover (in my area, it already has). So for recent history the story has been there's a glut of experience folks who need jobs, but those folks will get sucked up, and there will still be job opportunities for folks to break into.

For anyone who's never read the Seven Habits of Highly Effective people, I'd suggest you do so. One of the tenets the author champions is something near and dear to my heart - begin with the end in mind. Decide where you want to be and then keep working towards it through whatever means necessary. Never settle for less, and always look for ways to accomplish your goals.

erpadmin

Certifications are not meant to replace experience: they are meant to highlight it. My personal goals are to finally work toward certifications that have gotten me this far in my career and then have my experience (and WGU degree) carry me over to my "next level."

N2IT

erpadmin wrote: »

It's post like these that really make you my favorite business analyst. LOL! Seriously, I agree with this a gazillion percent.

I am sure this will be another experience trumps cert thread, but this post and his earlier one that I repped, makes the most sense as to why it is more important to LEARN the technology you are supporting instead of focusing 100% on your cert. At the end of the day, stable and long experience will matter. If you keep "paper chasin'", (be it money or certs), you will seriously have wasted valuable time growing into your career. A CCNP with less than 1 year of real experience Vs. a CCNA with 5 years of great real world experience. My money is on the latter.

There's "book smart", then there's "cert smart", and then there's "real world smart."

That last guy is the guy that tends to get hired.

I couldn't agree more!

Forsaken_GA

erpadmin wrote: »

A CCNP with less than 1 year of real experience Vs. a CCNA with 5 years of great real world experience. My money is on the latter.

depends on the CCNA's real world experience. If he's been a CCNA for 5 years, I'd start to wonder why he hadn't taken his learning any further. If I need him to maintain multiple sites with routers configured for high availability failover as well as maintaining a multi-area OSPF environment, and he can't conversate about that level of technology in an interview, the CCNP is hardly out of the running.

mikej412

I'm not sure how someone who hasn't been able to find an entry level job with their current education, certifications (say the CCNA), experience (or lack of experience) and motivation competing against other people targeting those same "low-level" jobs would expect to compete against more experienced people (who are working at the CCNP level or have their CCNPs) for those "higher-level" jobs.

I dont' have a problem with someone moving on to CCNP exam study right after the CCNA. It keeps some of their existing CCNA knowledge fresh for job interviews -- and they can easily spread out their CCNP study and preparation over 2 or 3 years as they compete with other people for the job scraps and hopefully claw their way up at work to where they are finally gaining meaningful work experience.

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I am considering going for my CCNP. I have about 6 months of pure networking experience and another 5 months of networking responsibilities. At what point do I say its CCNP time?

Who would you hire for a "CCNP Job" -- you 1 year ago without the experience and a CCNP? You right now with your 11 months (those are different months, right? Not overlapping?) experience and a CCNP? Or you 1 year from now after you've earned your CCNP and racked up another year of experience?

I think you should start your CCNP study right after you earn your Security+

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I'm scheduled for tomorrow.

and finish your Security+ Celebration. I'm thinking Monday.

erpadmin

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

depends on the CCNA's real world experience. If he's been a CCNA for 5 years, I'd start to wonder why he hadn't taken his learning any further. If I need him to maintain multiple sites with routers configured for high availability failover as well as maintaining a multi-area OSPF environment, and he can't conversate about that level of technology in an interview, the CCNP is hardly out of the running.

It could be because he's from a small shop that's only dealing with one site, but perhaps many well configured routers and switches.

It will always depend on the person and circumstances though. I've lost bets before (though age and wisdom taught me how to place real good ones).

The network guys at my shop don't even have an expired CCNA. I believe one of them has a degree from 4 year tech school, and the other guy has a CS degree. Then there's a third fellow who has a liberal arts degree. But none of them have Cisco or MS certs. Then again, none of them are looking to leave their spots either....at least not willingly.

Technito

There's been a lot of good points mentioned here so far. But I agree with Repo Man, I think one should start working on high end certifications while they have little or no experience. One obviously can't expect to bypass entry-level positions and jump right into an engineering level role. But a high-end certification can certainly give you a higher salary in an entry-level position compared to someone without the certification. Also you are more likely to move up into a junior sys/network admin position a lot faster. Similar to what Bl8ckr0uter stated, I personally know people that's been in IT for more than 10 years and still haven't outgrown a help desk or desktop support role. And I think the reason they can't advance is because they don't have any big certifications. Truth is most companies are not going to just throw someone into a higher role just for the heck of it or just because they are a good person. You have to prove you know something about the technology and environment in the higher role while working in the lower role. And one way that gives you that chance to prove it is by obtaining high-end certifications. That don't mean get every certification available but the ones that are highly in demand right now. These days, A+, Net+ etc don't cut it any more. They want the big certifications (High end Cisco/Microsoft certs and even Virtualization) is what makes them take you seriously when considering moving you up in ranks of networking. Now I don't believe in leaving huge gaps in employment either and expect it not to impact you. That will make one look bad regardless of certifications or experience.

Bl8ckr0uter

mikej412 wrote: »

Who would you hire for a "CCNP Job" -- you 1 year ago without the experience and a CCNP? You right now with your 11 months (those are different months, right? Not overlapping?) experience and a CCNP? Or you 1 year from now after you've earned your CCNP and racked up another year of experience?

I think you should start your CCNP study right after you earn your Security+

11 non overlapping months at different places of employment. You are probably right. I probably need to go ahead to the other side, even if I only work with a small amount of network gear at work.

networker050184

The way I see it is that certifications are there to validate experience. So I think its pointless to go for a higher level certification if you don't have some experience to go along with them. How is one supposed to be a certified professional/specialist/associate/expert/etc on something they've never actually worked on?

To each their own though. Most have no requirement of experience for certification.

N2IT

networker050184 wrote: »

The way I see it is that certifications are there to validate experience. So I think its pointless to go for a higher level certification if you don't have some experience to go along with them. How is one supposed to be a certified professional/specialist/associate/expert/etc on something they've never actually worked on?

To each their own though. Most have no requirement of experience for certification.

I'm glad you chimed in, seeing the examples for this post have mostly been networking. I guess the same could be said about databases. Would you let some guy who has 5 DB's certification regardless of vendor manage your database and do restores or someone who had proven experience?

With that being said I don't think there is one person in the post who thinks experience doesn't out weigh certifications, and if they do I wonder what the heck you are thinking.

The point is should you get high level certs when you don't even support the technology. I think it's silly. I'm not saying you shouldn't go outside your job title and learn new technologies, you should! But the point I am trying to make is getting 5 Cisco certs 4 MS certs and others in God knows what and then trying to apply for a higher level position is insane. You have to put your time in regardless. I agree with an earlier poster, if you have some certifications when going into a low level IT role, there is a chance for advancement at a faster rate, (sometimes). Realistically though it's your personality and wether they think you will mesh with the team. Communication is the key in my opinion. Another big factor is do you show up on time and how hard of a worker are you. Are you willing to do whatever it takes to learn and are you committed to the job. Do you value the job more than your education and certifications. I know guys who slack at work and study for certs and even their degree, bachelors or masters.

This has been a great discussion and I think both sides make valid points. I wasn't trying to "win" the debate, but merely express my concerns with that train of thought.

mikej412

Technito wrote: »

And I think the reason they can't advance is because they don't have any big certifications.

I think we've got more people with CCNAs working the helpdesks than we have CCNAs actually doing networking -- and they're still on the help desk because they weren't able to demonstrate CCNA level skills when they've applied for the internal "CCNA openings." Tacking a CCNP onto their resume won't get them off the helpdesk any sooner if they couldn't demonstrate CCNA level knowledge and skills during an interview. Certifications aren't a magic ticket to job or a promotion if you don't have the knowledge and skills to back it up -- and for the advanced certifications, the experience.

N2IT

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I am not sure how I feel about this last statement. Lets say for instance you are applying for a CCNA or an MCSA (or MCITP:SA) level job. Well lets say you have a CCNP or an MCSE (or MCITP:EA). In most cases, that shouldn't hurt you. If you have a MCM or CCIE obviously that would look really bad but getting a CCNP or MCSE (or MCITP:EA) shouldn't hurt you in your job search. Worse comes to worse you can always not list them.

I am considering going for my CCNP. I have about 6 months of pure networking experience and another 5 months of networking responsibilities. At what point do I say its CCNP time? At what point do I say I have MCSE (MCITP:EA) level experience? You have to make that call because if you wait around for experience to find you, you may never get that level of experience. Helpdesk can be null routes and I know plenty of people with 6, 7, 8 and even 10+ years of helpdesk experience and will probably never get to CCNP or MCSE (MCITP:EA) level.

Sorry for getting to your post late. I think your example isn't extreme. You have almost 1 year of networking experience and from the way it sounds you will continue working there. Moving up to the next level cert in your situation is a wise move. Now if you hadn't had a job or you were working in a non IT field my opinion would change dramatically.

By all means get the CCNP you don't need me to tell you that. I am more concerned about the people who are in helpdesk or jobless and are certing on these huge certifications. Not only are they costing themselves lots of money, they are also channeling their energies in the wrong direction. At that point they should spend less time certing and more time networking and applying for jobs. Just my opinion

earweed

I'm in kind of an awkward position myself as I have some PC tech and SOHO experience but haven't done the helpdesk/desktop support roles yet. I'll be getting my MCITP:EA largely because of getting the certs while working on my degree at WGU. I'm still working at trying to get even a helpdesk job right now (also applying for Jr. Sys Admin, NOC, Desktop suport).