high end certifications without relavent experience.

NinjaBoy

I agree with N2IT and the rest...

Professional IT Certifications should reflect your job role and responsibilities and not to be use as a substitute for experience. Added to that they are designed to show that the person is competent doing a task or job, and unfortunately just having a couple of virtual servers on a home PC creating trusts between them doesn't qualify that person to be a MCSE, etc...

There's nothing stopping a person learning, but getting certified is different.

-Ken

Bl8ckr0uter

NinjaBoy wrote: »

There's nothing stopping a person learning, but getting certified is different.

-Ken

How? Just curious...

NinjaBoy wrote: »

. . . and unfortunately just having a couple of virtual servers on a home PC creating trusts between them doesn't qualify that person to be a MCSE, etc...

Just so you know it is this particular phrase that I am having a problem with. I just want to make sure I didn't misunderstand you.

tpatt100

I got my MCSE during my first two years of IT. And to be honest? Hardly any of it mattered in the workplace except the NT Server exam. Pretty much every thing else I was doing involved third party applications and integrating them into a Windows environment. Also I am a use it or lose it guy. I stopped pursuing certs unless I worked on it as part of my job. I got Citrix when I was doing Citrix. I have not touched it in years I never renewed the cert. Same with my CCNA.

Technito

mikej412 wrote: »

I think we've got more people with CCNAs working the helpdesks than we have CCNAs actually doing networking -- and they're still on the help desk because they weren't able to demonstrate CCNA level skills when they've applied for the internal "CCNA openings." Tacking a CCNP onto their resume won't get them off the helpdesk any sooner if they couldn't demonstrate CCNA level knowledge and skills during an interview. Certifications aren't a magic ticket to job or a promotion if you don't have the knowledge and skills to back it up -- and for the advanced certifications, the experience.

That's true, but that's not the point I made in my post. The big question people ask is how to transition from pc/direct end-user support to server/network support. Certification paths, studies, home labbing etc is the only path to advance your skills if not currently working in a server/networking environment. Working as a helpdesk agent for many years is not going to get you there, which leaves no other choice. No certifications (Even high end ones) make or prove you're an expert on anything. But it should give you a basic understanding of the technology that an employer feels comfortable and willing to try you in a junior level role, and teach you further under the instruction of senior level engineers. In other words, it gives you the opportunity to prove what you know and in a position to be coached to utilize and advance your skill.

eten

mikej412 wrote: »

I think we've got more people with CCNAs working the helpdesks than we have CCNAs actually doing networking -- and they're still on the help desk because they weren't able to demonstrate CCNA level skills when they've applied for the internal "CCNA openings." Tacking a CCNP onto their resume won't get them off the helpdesk any sooner if they couldn't demonstrate CCNA level knowledge and skills during an interview. Certifications aren't a magic ticket to job or a promotion if you don't have the knowledge and skills to back it up -- and for the advanced certifications, the experience.

Hi Mike, I myself live in Canada, and I have a question. Entry level cisco jobs are quite rare here, and even so claimed "entry" level experience+salary have job requirements out of CCNA context. I had NOC L1 interview where they asked me about BGP / OSPF multiple areas and all sorts of things, some of which not even mentioned in CCNP.

I'm not sure what it is like in the States, but I haven't seen an entry level job which strictly lies on CCNA skill set. Jobs that only deal with Cisco here are generally senior positions, and entry level network jobs are heavily crossed with Microsoft, which I hate . Is it really possible to find an entry networking job *only* knowing whats listed in the CCNA blueprint, provided you can really do it on a switch/router?

Turgon

I think it's actually a difficult situation for the new people as compared to say 10 years ago. Today the roles and responsibilities within IT Departments have shaken down. At the sametime those departments have grown just as the infrastructure has grown the last 10 years. To that end a lot of people hiring have a particular idea of what they are looking for in a job candidate and many of them come up short on those requirements.

We interview a lot of CCNP qualified people who just dont have the experience we are looking for and they dont get hired. The interaction between infrastructure and support is better understood today as are the technical requirements to do a job well without impacting services. A lot of pecular problems and situations have been encountered over the years and a methodology to cope with and resolve incidents has one way or another surfaced. These are the things you look for in a candidate that hops into the interview room with some qualifications. Tell me about your work.

So that solid field experience is really essential if you want to land a good job in networking and you have to carry that over into your interviews. Change control is a big clincher, particularly in environments where infrastructure is shared with many customers and dependencies. Employers are looking for reliable time served people to carry out changes safely often at times where the amount of cover available is limited. If there is an incident as a consequence it's a call out for someone else and a Severity 1 impact on customer service with lots of fallout coming at the operations teams from the business.

To be honest with you, the Professional Cisco certs are not that difficult to obtain if you put the time in which is one of the reasons why so many people have them. There are other unscrupulous reasons which I wont clutter the thread up with. Back in 2001 a thread asked when will the CCNP **** problem be addressed? The retort from a well known CCIE instructor was 'When the world realises many CCNPs are idiots'. Those two things combined have lead to a surfeit of Professional level people hitting the jobs boards with a variable level of actual ability. The result was some difficult situations for companies in the field during the Cisco surge of 1999 - 2004. Many companies have learned from this and instead of being starry eyed about qualifications are now much more demanding in terms of what they are looking for in a hire.

However, sometimes they are somewhat unrealistic. The landscape has changed radically for IT Professionals the last 10 years. Most notably in the creation of separate teams and the division of responsibilities and particularly in the growth of that slaughterhouse of ambition known as the helpdesk.

Back when I started there wasn't a helpdesk. Everything on site came to yours truly and I did my best to handle it all. Not always well I might add as I was very inexperienced back then. But there was always headoffice to call for assist when I was confronted with something totally new, which in the beginning meant just about everything. But in time, with a free hand in everything on my site, application, attention to detail and self study I became competant and later rather good at a few things. I then changed jobs and the rest is history. Today such opportunities are not only few and far between for many newbies, but also reducing for many helpdesk encumbants. They rack up more time on helpdesk but do not advance and they have lots of restrictions on what they can and cannot do. My 'Computer Room' was adjacent to my desk when I started. Today the infrastructure could be many miles away. Less hands on.

But you have to start somewhere. Getting into helpdesk isn't always easy. Getting out of it can prove much harder for many people. I would say do 6 - 12 months in helpdesk to wet your boots and if you cant advance within that company go and find a job elsewhere.

puppy001

True back then anyone with just an interest in I.T could have got in, it is much different and much harder now, having an interest in i.t doesn't count for anything now.

Turgon wrote: »

I think it's actually a difficult situation for the new people as compared to say 10 years ago. Today the roles and responsibilities within IT Departments have shaken down. At the sametime those departments have grown just as the infrastructure has grown the last 10 years. To that end a lot of people hiring have a particular idea of what they are looking for in a job candidate and many of them come up short on those requirements.

We interview a lot of CCNP qualified people who just dont have the experience we are looking for and they dont get hired. The interaction between infrastructure and support is better understood today as are the technical requirements to do a job well without impacting services. A lot of pecular problems and situations have been encountered over the years and a methodology to cope with and resolve incidents has one way or another surfaced.

So that solid field experience is really essential if you want to land a good job in networking and you have to carry that over into your interviews. Change control is a big clincher, particularly in environments where infrastructure is shared with many customers and dependencies. Employers are looking for reliable time served people to carry out changes safely often at times where the amount of cover available is limited. If there is an incident as a consequence it's a call out for someone else and a Severity 1 impact on customer service with lots of fallout coming at the operations teams from the business.

N2IT

puppy001 wrote: »

True back then anyone with just an interest in I.T could have got in, it is much different and much harder now, having an interest in i.t doesn't count for anything now.

What does have interest in IT mean to an employeer? Squat is what it means. Unless you are able to produce and become an valuable member of the team you are deemed useless. There is always going to be a learning curve, most position seem to have a training timeframe from 3-6 months. Usually speaking if you get a job and still haven't gotten it by 6 months you are in over your head and you have reached the proverbial Peter Principal.

puppy001

I know a lot of ppl who got into I.T without quals (papers) or experience. They still have no papers but they have tons of experience and they hate people with quals they intend to diss them,

N2IT

puppy001 wrote: »

I know a lot of ppl who got into I.T without quals (papers) or experience. They still have no papers but they have tons of experience and they hate people with quals they intend to diss them,

That sounds rather bitter and extreme. I don't think the people with experience care to much about the people with the qualifications. I have a dozen of so friends who have only have 4 year degrees who work in IT. None of them have certifications except for a few and none of them diss people with certifications.

Bl8ckr0uter

N2IT wrote: »

That sounds rather bitter and extreme. I don't think the people with experience care to much about the people with the qualifications. I have a dozen of so friends who have only have 4 year degrees who work in IT. None of them have certifications except for a few and none of them diss people with certifications.

I know a few folks who diss people with certs. I work with one

erpadmin

puppy001 wrote: »

I think certs + relevant experience = success.

Instead of having a "rant" session [I have a better word, but won't use it here], why not apply yourself to get to where you want to get to. You and that ipconfig guy seem to have a similar writing style and the same sort of vent about "how hard it is to find a job if I don't have someone on the inside to help me out..." (as well as starting these types of posts...)

Instead of "rantin'" [again, lack of a much better word], why not do what you have to do so that you can get to where you have to get to! No matter how much "rantin'" you do, it is not going to change your situation, nor anyone elses!! Your energy is much better spent on learning what you need to learn, and then achieving certs.

Many people seem to want to break into IT, because they think that IT involves turning a PC on and doing a few mouse clicks. I can assure you, it's not that easy. In the US, and most western countries (and apparently even in countries that are viewed as oppressive regimes by Western governments), you can do whatever you want to do, even if it's in IT.

No one, but yourself, is going to stop you. But don't "hate" on people who seem to have it easier than you. If that were the case, I'd hate everyone my age who is a VP/President/CEO. Or even younger guys who are billionaires thanks to YouTube and Facebook.

Just concentrate on what you need to do and quit crying about how hard IT is to break into. Your energy is better spent elsewhere.

Trust me....10 years ago, 10 days ago, 10 hours ago....not that hard to do (especially if you're in or near a major metro).

N2IT

erpadmin wrote: »

Instead of having a "rant" session [I have a better word, but won't use it here], why not apply yourself to get to where you want to get to. You and that ipconfig guy seem to have a similar writing style and the same sort of vent about "how hard it is to find a job if I don't have someone on the inside to help me out..." (as well as starting these types of posts...)

Instead of "rantin'" [again, lack of a much better word], why not do what you have to do so that you can get to where you have to get to! No matter how much "rantin'" you do, it is not going to change your situation, nor anyone elses!! Your energy is much better spent on learning what you need to learn, and then achieving certs.

Many people seem to want to break into IT, because they think that IT involves turning a PC on and doing a few mouse clicks. I can assure you, it's not that easy. In the US, and most western countries (and apparently even in countries that are viewed as oppresive regimes by Western governments), you can do whatever you want to do, even if it's in IT.

No one, but yourself, is going to stop you. But don't "hate" on people who seem to have it easier than you. If that were the case, I'd hate everyone my age who is a VP/President/CEO. Or even younger guys who are billionaires thanks to YouTube and Facebook.

Just concentrate on what you need to do and quit crying about how hard IT is to break into. Your energy is better spent elsewhere.

Trust me....10 years ago, 10 days ago, 10 hours ago....not that hard to do (especially if you're in or near a major metro).

I wish I could rep this post. I really do but I already did it earlier in the post lol.

+1

N2IT

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I know a few folks who diss people with certs. I work with one

Is it poking for fun? Or is it hard core abuse?

I think a little ribbing is fun regardless of the topic. I had a guy at my job send me an OCD/Maniac test because of all the certifications I obtained. That could be viewed as a diss or dig, but he was only joking.

Bl8ckr0uter

N2IT wrote: »

Is it poking for fun? Or is it hard core abuse?

I think a little ribbing is fun regardless of the topic. I had a guy at my job send me an OCD/Maniac test because of all the certifications I obtained. That could be viewed as a diss or dig, but he was only joking.

"I don't respect certifications because they don't mean anything"
" I think certifications are pointless and useless"
"Certs are stupid. Anyone can **** a cert and call themselves IT pros"
"I never did certs because certs are for people without experience"
"I hate certifications"

Just stuff like that.

erpadmin

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

"I don't respect certifications because they don't mean anything"
" I think certifications are pointless and useless"
"Certs are stupid. Anyone can **** a cert and call themselves IT pros"
"I never did certs because certs are for people without experience"
"I hate certifications"

Just stuff like that.

But those quotes haven't stopped you from doing what you need to do, right?

You should be proud of the certs you obtained as well as the experience you will have. As long as you work through the other things in your personal maturation, you will see that in 5-10 years, you will see that it pays off and in dividends.

Your only problem, that I see, is that you are impatient. That can be worked on, but one thing that will speed that process along is the realization that everything takes time. You probably heard it a million times, but you're not ready to believe it. Once you being to believe and really believe it, you will achieve whatever it is you want.

It just takes time.

Turgon

puppy001 wrote: »

True back then anyone with just an interest in I.T could have got in, it is much different and much harder now, having an interest in i.t doesn't count for anything now.

The landscape was different then in terms of opportunities and expectations. It was difficult to get in on the scene for a lot of graduates living in the provincial areas like I did but easier in the big cities. Then the juggernaut kicked in from about 1997 onwards and there was lots of opportunity but also competition because so many people wanted a slice of the action.

Even the guy who let the trucks through the gates at the manufacturing plant I worked was reading a book on Cobol inbetween loads. There was a lot of hype and a lot of budgets to spend.

The training and reseller space exploded, so anyone with certifications could tap up a few leads there. In the bricks and mortar space, Windows and PC/server refresh work aplenty with Y2K looming. In the service provider and IT companies jobs aplenty. But we had dotcom crash, telco crash and an economic slump in the early part of the last decade that really clattered things. Surviving that was the imperative. Coming through that period are people now entrenched in good paying jobs. Offshoring and outsourcing came in. Management, Project Management, Process, Standards, ITIL et al came in.

The important thing today is to get in and from there get on. For that certifications and qualifications are just part of the picture. You need to make yourself useful and you need to build a good profile within the workspace you are paid to operate in. That really comes down to how well you handle yourself. You have about 6 months inside a new job to accomplish that. After that time the grace period is over and many opinions are formed. If they are bad, consider looking for work elsewhere within the organisation or without, taking the lessons learned onboard and adjust your approach accordingly!

Bl8ckr0uter

erpadmin wrote: »

But those quotes haven't stopped you from doing what you need to do, right?

For a while there it kind of did.....

erpadmin wrote: »

You should be proud of the certs you obtained as well as the experience you will have. As long as you work through the other things in your personal maturation, you will see that in 5-10 years, you will see that it pays off and in dividends.

I know I should be proud but I am not. I could have so many more if I had just did them. I could have probably been a CCNP right now and working on CCSP. But you know, such is life. Like this security plus thing. I could have had this cert done months ago but I got very unmotivated because of some conflicts at home (not related to the cert or my marriage but just money stuff) and this guy at working basically telling me I am wasting my time. But that is another story.

erpadmin wrote: »

Your only problem, that I see, is that you are impatient. That can be worked on, but one thing that will speed that process along is the realization that everything takes time. You probably heard it a million times, but you're not ready to believe it. Once you being to believe and really believe it, you will achieve whatever it is you want.

It just takes time.

That's just the only problem you see lol. But yea I am extremely impatient. I hate waiting for things period. I get road rage all the time while in traffic lol. I have always been a little impatient though and I know I need to work on that.

erpadmin

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

That's just the only problem you see lol. But yea I am extremely impatient. I hate waiting for things period. I get road rage all the time while in traffic lol. I have always been a little impatient though and I know I need to work on that.

That's the only I problem I see that's the root of all your others. Think about your money issues for a second. You wish you had more right? It sounds like a silly question, but before you yell out the obvious answer, think about your money issues; the fact that you wish you have more means you have to try to do everything you can to try to get more. Then you put these deadlines on yourself and when it doesn't happen by your deadline, you get unmotivated and frustrated, which is probably why it took you so long to sit down for Security+, a test that I know you can pass.

Impatience is a sign of youth...and God bless you, you have a lot of it. What you need to learn what to do with it is to channel that impatience into positive energy that will allow you to do something like study and pass the CCNP, for example. I recognize it, and I recognize it well, because I WAS you at your age. Everything eventually worked out for me, but some are not so fortunate. You are in a great place right now...you live in a state that has one of the highest unemployment rates in the country. If you allow your impatience to consume you, forget about others....YOU will fail! Once you get that under control, things like that coworker giving you crap will be like water off a duck's back. I'm in a similar situation in that regard, but I pretty much have him in check, in part, thanks to my own maturity and experience.

You will get there...I see that in you as do many others. You just have to begin to believe!

N2IT

tpatt100 wrote: »

I got my MCSE during my first two years of IT. And to be honest? Hardly any of it mattered in the workplace except the NT Server exam. Pretty much every thing else I was doing involved third party applications and integrating them into a Windows environment. Also I am a use it or lose it guy. I stopped pursuing certs unless I worked on it as part of my job. I got Citrix when I was doing Citrix. I have not touched it in years I never renewed the cert. Same with my CCNA.

And props to you for not listing them. You see that from time to time

Slowhand

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

"I don't respect certifications because they don't mean anything"
" I think certifications are pointless and useless"
"Certs are stupid. Anyone can **** a cert and call themselves IT pros"
"I never did certs because certs are for people without experience"
"I hate certifications"

Just stuff like that.

Let us turn to fine cinema for inspiration for a proper, measured response.

Yup, that works.

N2IT

Slowhand wrote: »

Let us turn to fine cinema for inspiration for a proper, measured response.

Yup, that works.

Beautiful! lol

Bl8ckr0uter

N2IT wrote: »

Beautiful! lol

This was great. I actually liked that movie a lot.

mikej412

It's 3pm on a Friday afternoon and the Teamsters are out hanging around the loading dock using their smartphones to see if their pay has been credited to their bank account yet -- and HR still hasn't been able to access the coproate HR system in the data center to upload the hourly employees hours worked to the outsourced payroll service. You and one of your co-workers have been tasked with finding and fixing the problem. Who do you want to be working with to solve this issue?

Coworker A and Coworker B both started at the company at the same time. Coworker A and Coworker B both earned their CCNAs during their first year working the corporate helpdesk.

Coworker A took a 3rd shift job in the NOC to try and use their new CCNA skills to gain networking experience. During their year in the NOC, in addition to their normal NOC duties (and moving to first shift), they helped out on a corporate data center upgrade, helped troubleshoot and resolve some of the simple data center network issues, and earned their CCNP.

Coworker B stayed on the helpdesk for an additional year supporting end users on the corporate global enterprise applications -- and also got their CCNP during that year.

Now seriously, which CCNP would you want working next to you to find and fix the problem?