Anyone ever question what they learned in college?

NetworkingStudent

Anyone ever question what they learned in college? I’m almost done with my degree, I graduate in December with an A.A.S IT degree. I feel that I have learned more from studying for certifications and studying on my own, than I have in my college courses. Sometimes I think part of this feeling comes from the fact that my school is a career college. At times I feel like each student has a price on their head, and teachers are encouraged to pass them along. Another part of this feeling could come from the fact that my school uses Altiris for a system management system, so that most of labs never work!! Students don’t have the proper Administration rights. A lot of students complain about this, but the instructors agree with their complaints, but there is never anything done to correct it. I got tired of the run around, and I figure out how to do my own labs. I was able to learn a lot faster by setting up my own labs. I think one thing that is funny is we have only one Cisco course, why? Because, students aren’t taking Cisco courses, so the school can’t make a profit from it. Shouldn’t a school that teaches IT have a full roster of Cisco courses?
It was always hard to do labs, so when studying for my A+ I bought Lab Sim, and I continue to use lab Sim(for Network+). I must say it’s a great product!!!! I learned more from Lab Sim, than I did from the A+ course that I did took at school. We never had computers to tear apart, I had to buy and build my own. I figured out on my own how to build a computer and select the parts. Also, I volunteered at Free Geek and I met a lot of people that work in the IT field. Additionally, I was able to get a lot of hands on time with building and tearing down computers. All of this experience helped me pass my A+ exam.
Sometimes I really believe that since I attended a career college, I was hindered in the amount of material I could have learned at a school. We go to school for 12 weeks, while regionally accredited schools go to school for 16 weeks. The 4 week difference could make a big difference in the amount of material presented and learned in class. Anyone else ever question what they learned in college?

PS sorry for the long post, but I really wanted to state my case

tpatt100

I learn best via short and condensed single class at a time.

earweed

It sounds like you're justified in being frustrated at the educational experience you've had thus far. I will agree that using Labsim, home labbing, and just hands on like you got at free geek is probably the best IT learning experience you can get. Nothing beats doing for long term learning.
Good luck in your future!

ziggi138

I will admit, I learned more in my first month as a tech support rep then i did in the 2 years i was in college. My instructors were great, but there is nothing like "getting your hands dirty" so you can retain the information you learned.

neocybe

Although I skipped the college route, I did take a Microsoft official curriculum MCSE 2003 course at a local tech school; I have definately learned more through certification studies, internet trolling and on the job experiences.

The biggest benefit from the MCSE course was being motivated by the group dynamic to suceed than actually learn anything new.

Mike-Mike

what do you mean by career college?

egb893

I got my A.A.S. at a community college and I learned a lot there. There were a lot of students that graduated with a degree that have no idea what they are doing. Those students seemed not to study or do the lab assignments but seemed to pass anyway, seems to be a universal problem.

As with any school you only get out as much as you put in. It sounds like you went above and beyond other students efforts and I'm sure you learned a great deal more. I agree with you that your school should offer a full roster of Cisco courses, but then again certain disciplines at my school, like computer forensics, only required an introductory course for Cisco.

Congratulations on your upcoming graduation!

Paul Boz

I studied liberal arts. Lots of philosophy, history, political science, and sociology. Every day confirms the value of my education. I look at everything around me as a social experiment. My liberal arts background has played a significant role in my career, as well. I've found that I interact with people better than most people in IT. There was a study released two or three years ago by Harvard that stated that the value of a liberal arts degree was on the increase as employers look less at the direct skills of a degree and more at the indirect. Liberal arts majors often have to write significantly more than non-liberal arts majors so the liberal arts majors are typically far better at business skills off the bat. I approach college as a means of bettering myself as a human being, not as a means to supplement my career. I've gotten pretty far without having finished my degree on experience and certs alone so there's no reason to not continue studying everything from astronomy to oceanography "just cuz."

Pash

Paul Boz wrote: »

I studied liberal arts. Lots of philosophy, history, political science, and sociology. Every day confirms the value of my education. I look at everything around me as a social experiment. My liberal arts background has played a significant role in my career, as well. I've found that I interact with people better than most people in IT. There was a study released two or three years ago by Harvard that stated that the value of a liberal arts degree was on the increase as employers look less at the direct skills of a degree and more at the indirect. Liberal arts majors often have to write significantly more than non-liberal arts majors so the liberal arts majors are typically far better at business skills off the bat. I approach college as a means of bettering myself as a human being, not as a means to supplement my career. I've gotten pretty far without having finished my degree on experience and certs alone so there's no reason to not continue studying everything from astronomy to oceanography "just cuz."

Just to have your social skills wasted on a bunch of geeks when you get into the office the next day?

I am not slating your overall point Paul, but choice of education path doesn't really fully define how you interact with people at work on a day to day basis. You can rack up good social skills by listening to people and talking to them about day to day things.

But yeh, having an education in something other than what you do day to day sounds very liberating and I congratulate you on that choice!

When I first went to college, I did Business Studies (cash cow is the only term I could remember after 1 year of study) Design and Technology (I am so bad at wood work my bird box fell to pieces) and Computing (I did take a lot in and enjoyed it). I quit after one year due to some pretty bad personal issues at home and then I returned to complete 2 A levels and one AS level (all PC and Technology related). I picked up lots at college and although I am a terrible student, I will value the skills I picked up from various teachers to this day.

ssampier

Yes, I questioned a lot of the education I received, often in class.
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Yes professors hated me.

Paul Boz wrote: »

I studied liberal arts. Lots of philosophy, history, political science, and sociology. Every day confirms the value of my education. I look at everything around me as a social experiment. My liberal arts background has played a significant role in my career, as well. I've found that I interact with people better than most people in IT. There was a study released two or three years ago by Harvard that stated that the value of a liberal arts degree was on the increase as employers look less at the direct skills of a degree and more at the indirect. Liberal arts majors often have to write significantly more than non-liberal arts majors so the liberal arts majors are typically far better at business skills off the bat. I approach college as a means of bettering myself as a human being, not as a means to supplement my career. I've gotten pretty far without having finished my degree on experience and certs alone so there's no reason to not continue studying everything from astronomy to oceanography "just cuz."

*fist bump for a fellow social scientist* B.S. Sociology

The most social people I have met have actually been business majors followed really closely by theatre/fine arts majors. Is this because the major has a self-selection process or the process of business education encourages more socializing?

I think it's more of the former than the latter.

I think it's fantastic that you love learning. I don't dislike education it's the structure that I dislike.

eansdad

I left community college because of teaching issue's. We had an adjunct prof who was a student counselor/math prof teaching computer forensics for starters. He didn't teach anything about computer forensics. I had taken an OS class (Windows XP) the adjunct was a joke. He had a few years experience and a BS in IT but had to read out of the book in order to teach. When I would bring up about simpler ways of doing things or that the book as wrong we would get into fights. The final straw was the Linux class, a 200 level course without any pre-reqs. First day of class the professor (who is the head of the IT dept and someone I know to be knowledgeable in Linux) reviews the 1st 2 chapters about Linux and reads "The Linux kernel is written in C." 15 hands go up....and then the question...."What's C?" That's when I knew this was going to be a bad class and it was....1 semester 5 chapters. We got as far as text editing.

Anyways....You always get out what you put in. If you study and do the labs you learn how to actually do the work and understand why/how it works. Or you could cram and pass a test to get a good grade for the class and learn nothing.

it_consultant

Often there is a huge difference between academics and industry. This is not only in IT, business degree grads often have to grapple with the fact that nothing they learned in college relates to the business world.

I work with a low level guy with a BS in IT. I have no degree, we have to hold his hand a lot. The upside for him is he gets a lot of OJT. In fact he is helping me with a WAN cutover tonight.

IMO IT should be an apprenticed craft. You will learn alot more following me around for 6 months then you will in 4 years of BS IT school.

BradleyHU

here we go again with the degree vs certs/experience thread....*sigh*

it_consultant

BradleyHU wrote: »

here we go again with the degree vs certs/experience thread....*sigh*

Its a valid thread or conversation. When people go from college to industry with zero usable knowledge it devalues the degree. Same as paper certs did in the late 90s. This board is for IT pros, understanding where our industry is in terms of training is very important.

Geetar28

I went to a Technical College and went through the "Networking Certificate" program. I had already obtained a Bachelors in English Lit. so it didn't make much sense to go for another degree. Anyway, like the OP I found that there were alot of guys there just because IT was supposed to a 'sure thing'. Not serious about learning at all. It was frustrating that when we finally seemed to get into a topic a little, the semester was over..

One of the real eye-openers was that when I got my foot in the door on the job, I was using NONE of the things that I was taught in school. For the first 6 months, it was sink-or-swim....at times I thought I was gonna sink. I'm at a manufacturing plant, and when I got here the lasers that we use to cut metal (and that the entire process depends on...) were going down 2-3 times a week....I was stressed to say the least not knowing jack about the programs and having machines that were total $!@t

It has been frustrating to not be able to learn/use more admin. or network skills while here. At first it seemed that all I was allowed to do was unlock accounts and change the backup tapes. Frustrating when in school you set up DNS,DHCP,WDS etc. etc. type servers and you get to work and have to unjam the copiers...I really wish that in the IT world there were more Co-Op/Apprenticing type opportunities.

I think the OP is on the right track in that basically you have to teach yourself...sometimes it's rough going, but it seems to stick with you better..

neocybe

IMHO, I agree with what Paul(?) said about everything being a social experiment. I think all tech related courses (college or otherwise) should include a mandatory business communication course. I've met many (myself included at one time) that were very technically knowledgeable but completely fall apart when put in a situation where they needed at least moderate presentation abilities whether it be collaborating in an informal departmental meeting or pitching an idea to management.

ITHokie

Paul Boz wrote: »

I studied liberal arts. Lots of philosophy, history, political science, and sociology. Every day confirms the value of my education. I look at everything around me as a social experiment. My liberal arts background has played a significant role in my career, as well. I've found that I interact with people better than most people in IT. There was a study released two or three years ago by Harvard that stated that the value of a liberal arts degree was on the increase as employers look less at the direct skills of a degree and more at the indirect. Liberal arts majors often have to write significantly more than non-liberal arts majors so the liberal arts majors are typically far better at business skills off the bat. I approach college as a means of bettering myself as a human being, not as a means to supplement my career. I've gotten pretty far without having finished my degree on experience and certs alone so there's no reason to not continue studying everything from astronomy to oceanography "just cuz."

Granted, but I'm not sure many people need to spend thousands or go into debt to better themselves. I've learned far more about life by reading, studying, and traveling on my own than I did at college. I realize there are any number of variables and different personalities that could lead to other conclusions, but my personal opinion is that liberal arts classes are beneficial, but not necessarily cost-effective for personal edification.

chrisone

of course we always question. Especially when your in debt and not making the money back to pay off your student loans. Trust me there are millions of people out there with this problem.

Paul Boz

ITHokie wrote: »

Granted, but I'm not sure many people need to spend thousands or go into debt to better themselves. I've learned far more about life by reading, studying, and traveling on my own than I did at college. I realize there are any number of variables and different personalities that could lead to other conclusions, but my personal opinion is that liberal arts classes are beneficial, but not necessarily cost-effective for personal edification.

I don't just stop learning when I leave a classroom. Academia provides a different level of education from amateur DIY. There's a reason why people pay to go to MIT even though the courses are publicly available for free. There is no replacement for hours upon hours of instruction, guidance, and knowledge from people who have specifically dedicated their lives to their craft. I do not think that ANY college is required to be successful or intelligent, as many people I know have never set foot on a college campus and are extremely successful, intelligent, and well-rounded human beings. That doesn't mean that they too wouldn't benefit from college courses.

I'm also not saying you have to PAY for college courses either. There's an extreme volume of recorded lectures on the Internet covering just about every college curriculum. The only thing that you don't get out of that is the interaction and thought development. My wife is a final-semester kinesiology major and she's taking four 4000 level courses this semester as well as two senior-level labs. I have sat in probably 30 hours of her classes this year as a casual observer. Typically professors don't give a **** if you sit in as long as its a lecture, your quiet, and you don't make yourself obvious. I didn't have the math requirements to take 4000 level astronomy at LSU but I sat in every lecture for every 4000 level course anyway because I'd had 12 hours of astronomy through the 3000 level and the professors knew I wanted the knowledge more so than the credits.


[edit]

For what its worth this thread made me email the LSU admissions office about hooking up some spring '11 schooling. I don't travel any more and my employer pays for credits so why not. FAFSA?? *sigh*

jahsoul

Paul Boz wrote: »

[edit]

For what its worth this thread made me email the LSU admissions office about hooking up some spring '11 schooling. I don't travel any more and my employer pays for credits so why not. FAFSA?? *sigh*

Dag...really...

*sliding Paul my resume* lol

phantasm

it_consultant wrote: »

Its a valid thread or conversation. When people go from college to industry with zero usable knowledge it devalues the degree. Same as paper certs did in the late 90s. This board is for IT pros, understanding where our industry is in terms of training is very important.

You're right, it is a valid discussion... just like it was the first 300 times. If you've been through college then I would hope an individual would know how to do some research. In other words, the search feature is our friend.

As for the OP's original question, I question both my A.S. and my B.S. every day.

jamesleecoleman

I got my Associates in Network Administration and I don't really feel that I learned a lot like I should have. First because of the short time span to learn all of this information along with the required 12 credits full time just to be covered by insurance. Second, we don't do hands on labs throughout the semester to reinforce what we learned. Third, there is no final test on core classes to get the degree. Fourth, my school doesn't require any kind of network related certifications to get the degree. The classes were way easy for the most part. I'm going back and relearning a lot of the important stuff that I need to know. If I asked the majority of the students that got their degree a few simple basic networking questions or talk about something related, they won't know what I'm talking about or how to answer the question.

My school doesn't push certifications for Network Administration and they should. I was actually thinking about talking to the department head about it. I'm sure I won't be able to change anything but I can try before I leave. At Ferris State University in a program that they have, they require three certifications just to graduate with a BS degree.

I do question if my degree is worth all the trouble sometimes. Then I look at jobs and then I know it is worth the trouble.

Pash

So what do you think of Professor Linde's Swiss cheese theory Paul?

thenjduke

I have learned alot from WGU but I have learned more by labbing and studing on my own.

BradleyHU

it_consultant wrote: »

Its a valid thread or conversation. When people go from college to industry with zero usable knowledge it devalues the degree. Same as paper certs did in the late 90s. This board is for IT pros, understanding where our industry is in terms of training is very important.

son....we rehash the same **** out EVERY time....and what you learn in college is never really what you're going to use in the working world. college is about theory, not application. if you're cs/cis, i dont know why pplz would expect their coursework to directly translate to desktop support, sys admin, network admin. cs/cis helped me to become analytical more than i used to be, plus my programming classes helped me in that it was fairly easy for me to pick up how to do scripting, even tho it was in a different lang from what i've learned in undergrad. i know if i didnt have any of those, it would have taken me a while to get a grasp on that. there's stuff i've learned in data comm that i can actually apply to certain aspects of my job.

now it all depends on the school you're goin to...but thats your fault if you're goin to a school who's professors dont know anything. you should have researched the school better. thats like me going to Katherine Gibbs school, but then complaining about what i've learned there later on.

erpadmin

• College is a means to an end.
• You do not need a degree to get a job, and a high paying job at that. If you have aspirations to do something greater than taking calls, installing hard drives, or even maintaining databases, a degree can only help, not hurt.
• Having a degree can only help on a resume and not hurt.
• To question what you learn means that you perpetually learn, and as Martha Stewart would say "that's a good thing."
• Did I mention college is a means to an end?

Paul Boz

phantasm wrote: »

You're right, it is a valid discussion... just like it was the first 300 times. If you've been through college then I would hope an individual would know how to do some research. In other words, the search feature is our friend.

As for the OP's original question, I question both my A.S. and my B.S. every day.

By your logic message boards should eventually see a downward trend towards zero new posts since everything will eventually be covered.

For what its worth I'm thankful for this thread as I haven't engaged in this discussion here before.

How about this: If you are in disagreement with the nature of a thread or its repetitious content just skip it.

it_consultant

A college degree is certainly never going to CLOSE any doors for you, I would hate for people to think its a waste of time. I do feel bad for college grads that enter the IT workforce and are immediately overwhelmed by the sheer amount of stuff they don't know.

I have a different axe to grind, everyone is told from an early age that a college degree is the way to a higher salary. In many ways thats true. It is not true in IT. It is also not true for a good many skilled labor jobs where people make way higher than the average US salary. The electrician we use to wire server rooms makes...God I don't know, we pay whatever he charges. He is over 150K a year easy. He's 34 and does not have a college degree.

erpadmin

it_consultant wrote: »

I have a different axe to grind, everyone is told from an early age that a college degree is the way to a higher salary. In many ways thats true. It is not true in IT. It is also not true for a good many skilled labor jobs where people make way higher than the average US salary. The electrician we use to wire server rooms makes...God I don't know, we pay whatever he charges. He is over 150K a year easy. He's 34 and does not have a college degree.

Bill Gates doesn't have a college degree either. (Though the one argument I like to counter that is that he's a Harvard dropout... ).

Many management jobs I see require one at least a BS (it's the new HS diploma). Skilled labor....you're pretty much ok with HS as long as you got competency and/or certs....anything higher....

The degree is where it's at.

Even the two folks on TE that didn't have a degree that broke into IT management.....it's a rarity to do it without one. In fact, they're both WGU grads (or rather one will become one, the other is a graduate)

Getting into IT management without a degree does happen, but so does Haley's Comet coming by every 75 years................

earweed

Getting a degree is becoming the new norm and while many may discredit what they learn in their gen ed classes I am personally glad that I took some of my gened electives that I did. I have a better appreciation of music, literature, and art because of some of my gen ed electives I took when I attended Uni the first time.
I don't question anything I learned throughout my life as it all blends together to make you who you are.

ITHokie

Paul Boz wrote: »

I don't just stop learning when I leave a classroom. Academia provides a different level of education from amateur DIY. There's a reason why people pay to go to MIT even though the courses are publicly available for free. There is no replacement for hours upon hours of instruction, guidance, and knowledge from people who have specifically dedicated their lives to their craft. I do not think that ANY college is required to be successful or intelligent, as many people I know have never set foot on a college campus and are extremely successful, intelligent, and well-rounded human beings. That doesn't mean that they too wouldn't benefit from college courses.

I'm also not saying you have to PAY for college courses either. There's an extreme volume of recorded lectures on the Internet covering just about every college curriculum. The only thing that you don't get out of that is the interaction and thought development. My wife is a final-semester kinesiology major and she's taking four 4000 level courses this semester as well as two senior-level labs. I have sat in probably 30 hours of her classes this year as a casual observer. Typically professors don't give a **** if you sit in as long as its a lecture, your quiet, and you don't make yourself obvious. I didn't have the math requirements to take 4000 level astronomy at LSU but I sat in every lecture for every 4000 level course anyway because I'd had 12 hours of astronomy through the 3000 level and the professors knew I wanted the knowledge more so than the credits.


[edit]

For what its worth this thread made me email the LSU admissions office about hooking up some spring '11 schooling. I don't travel any more and my employer pays for credits so why not. FAFSA?? *sigh*

That's pretty cool. I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you, but I'm a bit more skeptical of university professors and the efficacy of a liberal arts degree than you are. This is for a couple of reasons. Most importantly, the cost of going to a decent University has gotten ridiculous. Even the last couple of years while the economy was hurting, tuition has been rising. Coming out of school with a BA in history or education and $80,000 in debt just isn't going to work in today's economic climate. A master's degree is pretty much required, and that's going to put a lot of people over $100,000 in debt.

The second reason is that a lot of professors, especially the well-respected tenure ones, live in an academic box. Especially in liberal arts. Ideally, learning would be more balanced.

Personally, I love reading about philosphy and science. I read on my own. I jump at the chance to discuss with people who are more knowledgeable and less so than me. I even go to conferences sometimes. That's my way, but there are others.

Like you said, there are plenty of free classes and materials. The important thing is that a person actually wants to learn.

It's very cool that you sit through classes with your wife. I would love to be able to attend my wife's graduate classes. She hates her world religions class, but it's right in my wheelhouse! We've even talked about doing it if I ever take a day off during the week.