Loyalty??? Does it still exists?

willanderson1111

My employer sponsor my Secret Clearance and help me get my foot in the door to my first real I.T job. All is good but they're underpaying me atleast 10k. Where do you draw the line between loyalty and self-interest. I've been with the company for 14 months now. I have enough experience now that I can go to another company and get pay more. What should I do? Also is a little tougher decision because the company is small and I got to know most of the people there. I recently got a 8% raise and now making 50k. Is just sucks b/c I know I can get more now instead of waiting for another year to get another raise.

mikej412

willanderson1111 wrote: »

I have enough experience now that I can go to another company and get pay more.

Have you verified that by interviewing and getting an offer letter? You're only worth what someone is willing to pay you.

powerfool

I feel that you have to do what is necessary. Now, make sure your steps are measured and careful. Do not overstep.

Honestly, see what you can do with your employer.

I am in a similar situation as I feel that I am at least $10k, if not $20k, underpaid. They put me through getting my secret and training for CISSP. However, I feel that there is a lot of opportunity with my organization and plenty I can do to increase my earnings, so long as I am patient enough to wait for my annual review (I have been there for eight months). But, my being underpaid was due to my lack of negotiating at the time (they offered me exactly what I asked for).

If you are looking for another opportunity, send me a PM. Just make sure it is something that you want to do.

willanderson1111

@mikej412

That is what I am trying to get at. Do you think is OK for me to go out and start interviewing? Do you think is appropriate to bring back the offer letter and waive it at my current employer face to see if they can match or beat it?

MentholMoose

willanderson1111 wrote: »

Do you think is OK for me to go out and start interviewing?

Sure, why not? Going on an interview is not remotely close to the same as quitting.

willanderson1111 wrote: »

Do you think is appropriate to bring back the offer letter and waive it at my current employer face to see if they can match or beat it?

I would not recommend doing it like that, rather you should show some tact. But, you can try to use an offer as a point for negotiating a raise. Keep in mind that your employer may say "see ya!", so you should be 100% prepared to accept the offer. There are many, many web sites covering the pros and cons of accepting a counter-offer, so just do a Google search.

I probably wouldn't try it myself, however I have seen it done successfully first hand so I know it's possible. It really comes down to your relationship with management. Since you say you know your coworkers well, maybe you can pull it off.

Sabalo

Look at it from a business point of view.

Your company would not likely continue to employ you if your were not making them money, regardless of how much they might like you personally. Would they stick with you if you were costing them 20K a year in overhead?

You are a business owner too... you own your own skills and talents. If they do not want to pay Fair Market Value and the intangible benefits are not worth it for you, you should look at other opportunities.

UnixGuy

Loyalty still exists of course. 14 months with a comany and in the IT world in general isn't a long time by the way, and you're not alone. A lot of peopl (me included) started with a company and got important trainings and built experience from the ground (I joined with a degree and some exceptional grades/recommendation+ccna+programming background).


What kind of work do you do with your company ? What degree certifications do you have ?

Do you think if you stay in the company you will grow financially and technically ? if yes, then stay for 2 more years and make a plan of certs/experience then leave after you accomplish you plan. I think it's better to leave only if you have 3-5 yrs experience with hot certifications.

You should go for interviews to know your real market value.

Matt27[lt]

Loyalty is nothing, for me... My first 2 companies I worked for, went bankrupt. I stayed till the end because tried to be loyal through hard times and be "understandable" when they cut my pay. Wont' happen again. The companies are here to make money - so are you. Does your company would provide service/goods for free to it's customer just because the company would try "to be loyal" to it's old/dear customers? No money, no service. The same goes for me. And you know - I get more respect for this. My relations with old clients (to whom I refused "cheaper" service because of loyalty) are better than ever. Of course I didn't say "...off if no money" I just explained that my service hours price is bigger then they are willing to pay. The same goes for your company - when you started to work for them, your experience was low,so was the pay. Now - more experience, more money. If they don't agree, don't feel bad or "not-loyal". Go scouting for better positions. And about certifications or security clearance which were paid by the company - in all my contracts was a bold line - "if an employee leaves a company by his will, he will re-pay all the money which were invested in to him within 1 years". or smth like this. It means, I have to repay to my company the money it spend on my certifications and exams 1 year back. That is fair for me.
p.s. If you feel "attached" to this company, you can go for 10 proc. lower pay, than it would be paid in your position. Anything lower - you're getting scr.... just my imho.

earweed

Since they are underpaying you see if they will sweeten the deal by paying for you to get certs and/or go to college for a degree. They obviously like you as they have kept you on this long. I'd advise staying on at least to or even past the 2 year point and see if you can't get a raise to get up to or near your perceived market value.
One of the companys incentives for keeping you on is that they do save that 10K in salary. Actively job hunt and interview but don't be so crass as to wave a job offer in their faces. Talk to your manager about a raise and/or help with certs/school. Help with certs/school will cost the company less as they get tax breaks for offering you training and you are building your earning potential for your next gig.
The loyalty thing is big for some companies and you may get repaid for it eventually. The company has already invested in you and if they invest more then you are more valuable for them to keep. Try to stick it out for a while longer.
Just my opinion.

Bl8ckr0uter

UnixGuy wrote: »

Loyalty still exists of course. 14 months with a comany and in the IT world in general isn't a long time by the way, and you're not alone. A lot of peopl (me included) started with a company and got important trainings and built experience from the ground (I joined with a degree and some exceptional grades/recommendation+ccna+programming background).

I am going to say loyalty is relative. The fact that you show up everyday and the fact that they pay you shows mutual loyalty and respect. I personally feel that your loyalty should run as deep as your perception of the quality of the "ship", the merit of the "captain" and shipmates, your role on the ship and how well it will navigate through the ocean of uncertainty. If the ship is one bad quarter away from layoffs, perhaps you should look elsewhere. If the captain is a douche and there are jobs offers on other ships, perhaps you should look elsewhere. If you will be scrubbing the deck and you want to do more, then perhaps you should look elsewhere.

Personal Example:

I have worked for a fortune 100 company. The job was a help desk position with about 100 people. Many of the people though the job was the bee's knees because of its decent pay, decent benefits and it was thought to be stable (despite the company had laid off many software developers and brought in H1Bs). Well I got restless because I wanted to do more and after trying to get promoted, my perception change and I found a new job. Many people thought I wasn't loyal and I was crazy because they perception of the ship and their role was much different than mine. I made the decision because I am more loyal to myself than to any company. I made a 20k jump (nearly doubling my salary) when I made that decision.

In response to Unix Guy:

14 months is relative to the experience. 14 months in a good company, doing something you like and making a decent wage might seem like a short time. 14 months in a sucky shop being a password ninja might not seem so nice.

za3bour

I don't think loyalty exists anymore, I helped building a company from scratch I was number 4 when they hired me.They grew up to 45 in less than 2 years and after 6 years of working for them they kicked me out in a heartbeat.

"You're only worth what someone is willing to pay you."

I like this phrase, I think every one of us feels a little underpaid, if you can have a better job go for it, it's the money that you make not how many friends do you have.

It's a little harsh but this is our time, the world is not the same "sadly".

UnixGuy

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

...In response to Unix Guy:

14 months is relative to the experience. 14 months in a good company, doing something you like and making a decent wage might seem like a short time. 14 months in a sucky shop being a password ninja might not seem so nice.

I agree with you, and since the OP's market value is increased after his company's investment, then I think It might be worth staying little bit more. and LOL @ "password ninja" !

jmritenour

I really don't think much of loyalty. If it does, it's in small mom and pop consulting organizations. But with this day and age of pretty much EVERY company being publicly traded, everyone's concerned about the bottom line, and if they can increase their margins by shipping a few hundred jobs overseas, they will.

One of the most interesting people I've had the pleasure of knowing my life was recently telling me about all the different jobs over the years. He was ex-Navy, and retired from that, then went to work for the National Archives in the Naval records division. From there, he became an auditor for Housing and Urban Development, and finally retired. He got bored of retirement for a year then went to teach history at a military academy for about 5 years, and just recently retired again. He told me he's not sure yet if he's retired for good, or if he's going to look for something else. But he said something to me that has been stuck in my brain for months - "Everywhere I went, I just wanted to have fun, and make some money. And if I decide to work again, it's going to be because that's what I want to do - have more fun, and make more money."

earweed

@OP be sure to check your employment agreement. Since they got you the clearance and all they may have stipulations about how long you must stay there without paying them back something for it.
By the way where is your location and what is your education/certs level? 50K for someone new to IT is not that bad but that's also relative to your location.

SRTMCSE

Personally, loyalty is nothing. I don't expect it from an employer and I don't give it out. I've seen too many people screwed over for being a "company man", in IT and other fields. Unless you have shareholder or ownership in the company, you're there for yourself just as the company exists for the owners (individuals or shareholders).

With regards to using an offer letter to try to get an increase. I wouldn't do it. Even if they do keep you, it will be temporary. They'll be caught off guard and rather than look for a replacement while you're gone (who knows how many weeks or months it'll take), they'll give you a raise or other incentives to stay, then as soon as they can find someone to replace you or you give them the tiniest excuse, you're on your @$$. I too considered that with my last job and probably would've gotten a raise because it's 6 months later and they STILL haven't found a replacement for my position (not because my unique skillset, but because it's night shift work). Everyone I spoke with, everything I read online said accepting a counter offer was a bad idea.

GAngel

Loyalty .

tpatt100

Loyalty is important but remember a company is not going to just double digit increase your pay for the heck of it.

If you switch companies your going from a "known environment" to an "unknown environment" some people prefer steady pay increases to uncertainty. Companies pay you more when you switch to attract you to give up the comfort of your current position.

The risk in moving now a days is your now the "new guy" and if something bad happens you might be the first to go.

WillTech105

From my own personal experience in IT -- loyality is dead.

I've seen way too many IT guys getting screwd while on the job and myself getting screwed a number of times as well for being the "good guy" and doing my job.

At the end of the day, it doesn't matter how long you've been at a company. If you aren't producing or the job you do becomes obsolete or if its cheaper to outsource/hire someone else your OUT. No one cares at your job about your career goals or feelings. I've personally had to fight at every job to get to where I am today and if I left it to my employer I'd still be a help desk guy instead of an engineer.

This is a business as just like they say -- "this isnt' personal, its just business". I find it funny how employees love giving out 2 weeks notice when the employer will never say "Oh Joe, by the way, we're giving you a 2 weeks notice that we're firing/laying you off, just as a heads up!"

Now tell me this, is it easier for a company to find an employee or an employee to find a job?

Some of the people who get scewed have families, kids, bills, mortgage -- this could potentially mess us up finanicially if we are not prepared for it. At the end of the day, its survival of the fittest.

Sabalo

WillTech105 wrote: »

This is a business as just like they say -- "this isnt' personal, its just business". I find it funny how employees love giving out 2 weeks notice when the employer will never say "Oh Joe, by the way, we're giving you a 2 weeks notice that we're firing/laying you off, just as a heads up!"

Actually the only time I've ever been laid off, the company was great about it. For security reasons they could not keep me active once they'd decided, but they gave me 3 months of full pay and benefits, tripled my pay for any contracting work we agreed on, and wrote me awesome references.

All I expected, honestly, was an apology. Great company, there. And they made a good business decision, which I can respect.

2ndchance

This is my definition of loyalty, based upon only my experiences. I've told this story before, but I think it is worth repeating.

Loyalty is when you take over as the administrator/manager and don't get paid anymore than your previous job. Then you spend the next 5.5 years working on your bachelors degree so that you'll be given the title and the pay for the job you've been doing all along.

You get your degree and are then told that you aren't getting the title or the pay increase. Then your employers tell the person who gets your administrative job that they will be working with a very loyal network administrator! I, therefore, equate loyalty to gullibility. Shame on them! Shame on me even more!

Why am I still there?

1. The person who got my old job treats me with respect and values my experiences. I've also gotten me something of a raise.

2. My work is now paying for all my certs, books, and training.

I've had other job offers, but I feel working under my new boss is like starting over at a new company. I'm getting my training paid for and we'll see where my salary goes in time.

To the OP: There's been a lot of good advice on this thread. Using tact is the KEY! Also, it sounds like they are giving you a lot of help in terms of building your skills and credentials. Sometimes that higher paying job means you'll be working with a bunch of unrealistic jerks. You'll be too exhausted/stressed to work your job and get certs. Not knowing your full situation, I would still say you stick around and make use of the opportunities you have. The longer you are there, the more invaluable you may become.

WillTech105

Sabalo wrote: »

Actually the only time I've ever been laid off, the company was great about it. For security reasons they could not keep me active once they'd decided, but they gave me 3 months of full pay and benefits, tripled my pay for any contracting work we agreed on, and wrote me awesome references.

All I expected, honestly, was an apology. Great company, there. And they made a good business decision, which I can respect.

Of course no all companies are all jerks -- but fromy my experience and from my circle of IT professionals we've always been done dirty. Just like the way you were raised, you could have a positive or negative take on this subject. Unfortuantly I've been burnt one too many times that its left a bad taste in my mouth.

networker050184

Sabalo wrote: »

Look at it from a business point of view.

Your company would not likely continue to employ you if your were not making them money, regardless of how much they might like you personally. Would they stick with you if you were costing them 20K a year in overhead?

You are a business owner too... you own your own skills and talents. If they do not want to pay Fair Market Value and the intangible benefits are not worth it for you, you should look at other opportunities.

That is exactly what I was going t say. They wouldn't keep you if you underperformed at your job, so there is no need to stay if they are under-performing (underpaying) on their part.

Loyalty goes both ways. They show their loyalty by taking care of you (pay, benefits etc.) and you show yours by doing your work.

I also think 14 months is long enough for them to give you a raise if you are making below market value. I'm still in my second year in my current position and have already received two raises. I'd also make sure you have an offer before you try any bold moves. Always have to CYA.

chmorin

earweed wrote: »

@OP be sure to check your employment agreement. Since they got you the clearance and all they may have stipulations about how long you must stay there without paying them back something for it.
By the way where is your location and what is your education/certs level? 50K for someone new to IT is not that bad but that's also relative to your location.

Yup at the above.

A secret clearance are very big investments to company, many thousands of dollars. That in and of itself may be helping your future more than the ten grand less you think you are getting now.

sidsanders

if they can get someone better or cheaper, they will replace folks. cases i have seen its cheaper. the larger the place is, the more it seems loyalty is a 1 way street. you do what you can for where you work, while you should simply be happy to have a job... or so they try to make it seem.

Paul Boz

It completely depends on the company which you work for and how you define loyal. While my last employer paid for certs, had company events, and stuff like that, they did not invest in my future and had a "you're all in or you're all out" mentality. It did not foster a sense of belonging and no one really lasts there longer than 2-3 years.

I would say that if someone is willing to go through the process of getting your security clearance that's a pretty significant investment. you may feel that you're getting hosed on your salary but as others have said, unless you have offer letters stating that you're worth more than you make now its just theoretical. In this case I'd differentiate between loyalty and possible over-expectations. I think that just as frequently as employers are called out for being cheap and not promoting or giving raises, many people feel entitled to more than they make because of self-perceived value. I started my last job at 45k and was bumped to 60k because it was more where I should be. My employer basically adjusted my income to match my value to the company. After that though, raises were few and small. Once they adequately compensated my talent level that was it.

tdean

willanderson1111 wrote: »

My employer sponsor my Secret Clearance and help me get my foot in the door to my first real I.T job. All is good but they're underpaying me atleast 10k. Where do you draw the line between loyalty and self-interest. I've been with the company for 14 months now. I have enough experience now that I can go to another company and get pay more. What should I do? Also is a little tougher decision because the company is small and I got to know most of the people there. I recently got a 8% raise and now making 50k. Is just sucks b/c I know I can get more now instead of waiting for another year to get another raise.

hmmm... an 8% raise during a recession with millions of qualified workers unemployed? that sounds pretty good to me.

Paul Boz

tdean wrote: »

hmmm... an 8% raise during a recession with millions of qualified workers unemployed? that sounds pretty good to me.

Greed and ambition are a blurry line but I have to agree with you. Most people in this economy aren't getting raises at all. In fact, many people are taking deep pay cuts. I have a hard time feeling bad for someone getting a security clearance and an 8% raise. It sounds to me like the employer is being more than generous.

tdean

also the OP must take into consideration the size of the company. i have found out the hard way if you are worth "X" to a small or medium sized company, you are worth significantly less to a large company b/c chances are they will have many people that can do what you can do.

Paul Boz

tdean wrote: »

also the OP must take into consideration the size of the company. i have found out the hard way if you are worth "X" to a small or medium sized company, you are worth significantly less to a large company b/c chances are they will have many people that can do what you can do.

That depends largely on what you do. There are only three dudes that do what I do where I work and we're relatively large (25k employees+).

DoubleD

sounds like they are not being very loyal to you for paying peanuts so dont worry about being loyal to them

colemic

It may be peanuts, but I would like to point out that the OP did agree to the pay, and the company has been quite generous with an 8% raise in today's economy.

That being said, I don't hold much loyalty unless they invest dollars in me, outside of salary, to make me a better asset for the company, and is beneficial to me. (such as tech training, enrichment classes, etc.

...so I don't hold much loyalty - you get what you pay for.