Did not get sys admin job again...what am I not doing right?

JockVSJock

Ok, so I'm still working the help desk hell and going on more then 5 years now.

This is the 3rd time that I have interviewed and not gotten the internal position. I am very frustrated now. I am not sure what to do.

rogue2shadow

It might be time to start looking outside your job. When making the move, I would consider your family situation (kids, married or not) and how much you have saved up (incase they find out your looking/if relocation is a factor). I feel like after three times, it doesn't look like things are going to change soon (it could be a number of factors; budget, politics, who knows).

With your experience and masters, you will definitely prove to be a great candidate at most place IMO.

Ryan82

I agree maybe looking elsewhere is a good idea. I am a firm believer that if things aren't working out the way you think they should and your not getting the respect you deserve, then you should move on.

mikej412

JockVSJock wrote: »

This is the 3rd time that I have interviewed and not gotten the internal position.

Who did get the position(s)? Someone internal? Or did they go external? Any idea of their qualifications compared to yours?

What feedback/feeling did you get during the interview?

What were the requirements for the job(s) and how closely did you match them?

N2IT

JockVSJock wrote: »

Ok, so I'm still working the help desk hell and going on more then 5 years now.

This is the 3rd time that I have interviewed and not gotten the internal position. I am very frustrated now. I am not sure what to do.

Master in information technology and some nice certifications and quite a bit of job experience, you have done your time. Do something nice for yourself like finding a new job. You deserve it.

And as far as the internal thing goes, I find if you don't get it the first time your chances drop heavily. I don't have any stats to prove it, but the last 3 system admins we had get promoted were there for 3 months, 6 months, and 9 months. (All fast tracked for their personality and schooling). None had certifications. The job before that was similiar, a 10 year guy was skipped who actually had 3 server certs for Windows 2000 and some server experience, that was stopped about half way through his career for one reason or another, but he did active directory accounts experience etc and some rookies jumped right over him. I have no idea why, probably because he interviewed well, but who really knows.

I find if you make it to through your second year you are pretty much done and destined to serve that company in the help desk. You might be promoted in the help desk in some capacity, like a team lead, supervisor maybe even a low level manage or a specialized position in the help desk. But not with the other groups.

This is just the way I have seen it recently.

JockVSJock

mikej412 wrote: »

Who did get the position(s)? Someone internal? Or did they go external? Any idea of their qualifications compared to yours?

All internal. Way less qualifications then me. The 1st two had their Bachelors and the third only had a Associates. None of them have any certs.

mikej412 wrote: »

What feedback/feeling did you get during the interview?

Feedback seems good, however you never can tell.

mikej412 wrote: »

What were the requirements for the job(s) and how closely did you match them?

Requirements of job:
-Knowledge of Windows Server
-Knowledge of Windows AD, MS SMS and MS Exchange
-Knowledge of VMWare and Citrix XenApp
-Knowledge of hardware

JockVSJock

N2IT wrote: »

You might be promoted in the help desk in some capacity, like a team lead, supervisor maybe even a low level manage or a specialized position in the help desk. But not with the other groups.

This is just the way I have seen it recently.

Right, my manager wants me to become a Team Lead. Why? All I want to do is move beyond the Help Desk, not continue to work in it.

cisco_certs

i think they want you to have MCITP or MCSE or MCSA certs.

RobertKaucher

N2IT wrote: »

And as far as the internal thing goes, I find if you don't get it the first time your chances drop heavily. I don't have any stats to prove it, but the last 3 system admins we had get promoted were there for 3 months, 6 months, and 9 months. (All fast tracked for their personality and schooling). None had certifications. The job before that was similiar, a 10 year guy was skipped who actually had 3 server certs for Windows 2000 and some server experience, that was stopped about half way through his career for one reason or another, but he did active directory accounts experience etc and some rookies jumped right over him. I have no idea why, probably because he interviewed well, but who really knows.

I just wanted to comment on this. I think in nearly every instance personality will trump most paper based qualifications for internal positions. Meaning, if I have worked with you and like you, you are far more likely to get the job than any one else (regardless of degrees or certs).

N2IT wrote: »

I find if you make it to through your second year you are pretty much done and destined to serve that company in the help desk. You might be promoted in the help desk in some capacity, like a team lead, supervisor maybe even a low level manage or a specialized position in the help desk. But not with the other groups.

This is just the way I have seen it recently.

I agree with this and have seen this pattern as well.

My suggestion to JockVSJock is that for the next 6 months be as friendly, helpful, and productive as you can be. If you regularly handle x number of tickets per day strive to handle y number. Be as positive as you can while at work. While not at work, strive just as hard to find a new job. When you do get a new job, if you get an exit interview, stay positive and make them hate that they didn't promote you.

N2IT

Robert I totally agree with the part about taking the high road. It can only help and not hurt. The fact that you are so educated could also hurt in some regards, but then we start going down the road of spectulation.

I think you should keep doing the work you are doing and when you aren't look for another gig. You didn't do all of studying and learning to be a help desk tech.


***Not to derail the conversation, but lately I have found it hard to study the network+, because of these type of issues.

JockVSJock

RobertKaucher wrote: »

My suggestion to JockVSJock is that for the next 6 months be as friendly, helpful, and productive as you can be. If you regularly handle x number of tickets per day strive to handle y number. Be as positive as you can while at work. While not at work, strive just as hard to find a new job. When you do get a new job, if you get an exit interview, stay positive and make them hate that they didn't promote you.

Let me know if you agree or not with how I'm trying to figure out where I'm going wrong.

The 2nd time this happened, I met with my manager and asked what am I doing wrong. I also asked is there anything I can improve on.

My manager wasn't able to answer either question.

I'll be meeting again with the manager shortly and wanted to know if there are any other questions I can ask to see how I can advance.

My job is ok, however I would like to move on to the next level. My manager knows that.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

Zartanasaurus

After three tries and getting passed over for people less qualified on paper, you have to accept that it's either you or someone there who doesn't feel like you're a good fit in that role/doesn't like you. They know you want to advance and won't advance you. I would start looking elsewhere.

eansdad

Maybe over qualified? or they like you where you are at or the people hired have friends/family in the right place. Where I am I see people being promoted for everything but skill, education and experience.

slinuxuzer

I agree sounds like it might be time to move on, before you move away from the stable income you have you need to think about how qualified you are as a systems admin.

How well do you know MS Server, AD, GPO's, DNS, DHCP, WSUS, Backup and restore packages, Storage systems, Vmware / Virtualization, Exchange, SMS / SCCM ?

These are likely to be some of the top things any potential employer is going to look at, it really sucks that you can't move up internally because when trying to get a Sys admin job at a large company it's going to be pretty hard with no on the job experience.

My best suggestion is this.

1. Setup a lab with Vmware workstation / server, utilize cbt's if possible and LAB LAB LAB until you know these technologies, at the very least the core stuff like Server, AD, GPO, DNS, DHCP.

Once I felt like I was past solid and close to hardcore with these I would have a "come to Jesus meeting" with my current employer and ask why am I not being moved up, next step is to "hit the bricks"

Just my 2 cents.

Give us some info on where your Sys admin skills are currently and what your doing to mitigate any short comings, also tell us what you think your interpersonal relationship's are like with the managers holding you back.

RobertKaucher

JockVSJock wrote: »

Let me know if you agree or not with how I'm trying to figure out where I'm going wrong.

The 2nd time this happened, I met with my manager and asked what am I doing wrong. I also asked is there anything I can improve on.

My manager wasn't able to answer either question.

I'll be meeting again with the manager shortly and wanted to know if there are any other questions I can ask to see how I can advance.

My job is ok, however I would like to move on to the next level. My manager knows that.

Thanks everyone for the feedback.

I replied to this last night but must have not submitted the post... The point to my message was that you may not be doing anything wrong at all. It may not even be that they don't like you or they have any doubts about your abilities. I believe introspectiuon and seeking feedback as you have been are both very good traits. But at this point I think you need to couple that with looking at what these people have in common. What is the sys admin team like? What do they have in common with these guys who got the job that you did not?

It may not be anything you are doing, it may be what you are not doing. It may also be something like background. The team is hiring people who have similar interests and personal lives. There could be any number of things contributing to this. It comes down to the fact that after three strikes you need to consider a new place. If you really like your company, great. Keep doing a good job. But if there is no chance on you getting what you want out of your education, experience, and certifications why should you stay? Employment is a two way street. If you are not getting what you want out of the deal, you ned to start looking at places that will allow you to expand in the way you want to.

Chris:/*

You have the formal education but your certifications are not equal to most System Admins I know HOWEVER, we all know those are just check marks to compare for most HR goons.

Since it is an internal competition my guess would be either:
1. Favoritism for your competitors
2. Your interview skills or personality does not comply with the position they want you in
3. They do not want to pay you what you are worth in the position
4. Your actual technical ability does not match the position (happens sometimes)
5. Your boss wants to keep you because it makes him look good and his life easy

I suggest to start looking for a new location and position past 5 years and no true progression will stagnate your resume and experience, move on. If you choose to stay there bust your butt and apply again the next year.

Best of luck.

billyr

I wouldn't take the rejection personally, it may even be a compliment to you in a round about way.
It's not uncommon for managers to want to hold on to their best personnel in existing roles. I imagine after the amount of time you have spent in that position, that you are pretty much the go to guy, losing you could cause a bit of a headache to your manager and he/she may be reluctant to let you go.
Whatever the outcome it's probably time to update your skills in preparation for a sit down with management or a future job search.
You find when you get into these situations that this is the time you start to dislike your job and to resent those you work for, normally under the mistaken belief that they know how you feel. Better not to let things fester for too long.

powerfool

I was in a similar situation at my last job.

I was hired on as the Systems/Network Administrator. The IT Director that hired me on was neither strong technically nor strong managerially; he was the biggest roadblock to our success, so much so that the entire IT department was invited to the management meetings to discuss the IT department. I developed all of our strategic goals and successfully implemented upgrades to our critical systems, developing and implementing a successfully tested disaster recovery strategy, and performed project management for applications development projects. I applied for the job, as I essentially filled the gap for the six months the position was not filled. I did not get the job.

During the time that the next IT Director was employed, I worked hard to smooth over relations with her as she walked in and wanted to fire everyone and bring in employees that she had dragged with her for the previous three jobs. She ended up getting one of them on to fill an open position, and it worked out well. She worked with me to develop myself for the move. I received a new title of Senior Infrastructure Architect and I continued on with the responsibilities that I had. She ended up leaving after about nine months for a better position elsewhere.

I applied for the job again, having great confidence. I did more to work with departments to find solutions to their needs. In the end, the CFO hired a grossly underqualified buddy he had from high school. The person had worked in three positions that were highly process driven (meaning someone else made processes, and he simply performed the processes). The recession hit and he fired all of of except our ERP programmer. Not only did he do that, but he tried to get us to use up our vacation and sick time so it wouldn't be paid out... all immediately following Christmas.

So, that was the best thing. I grew a lot at that company, so I am grateful for the opportunity... but he was probably the worst manager I have ever worked for, and it was only for about four months. If I had not been let go, I would not have began looking for a job so thoroughly. I had previously began looking for work, but the position that I ultimately gained would not have been sought by me otherwise.

I guess, what that all says is that it is probably time for you to move on. Since you are in a good position, ensure that you do not accept a lateral move. Make sure you are moving into a position that is better and will allow you to grow. In fact, see some jobs that you feel you may not be ready;if you get this sort of position, you may surprise yourself.

rsutton

JockVSJock wrote: »

The 2nd time this happened, I met with my manager and asked what am I doing wrong. I also asked is there anything I can improve on.

My manager wasn't able to answer either question.

Unacceptable. Your manager wouldn't let you off the hook very easily if you just decided to not do your job. Don't let him off the hook either, a capable manager should be able to answer these questions and provide direction.

Chris:/*

rsutton wrote: »

Unacceptable. Your manager wouldn't let you off the hook very easily if you just decided to not do your job. Don't let him off the hook either, a capable manager should be able to answer these questions and provide direction.

Agreed, but there are a lot of managers that scoff at the idea of providing constructive criticism. Though rsutton is correct information should be provided back to you so you can learn your weak areas.

RobertKaucher

rsutton wrote: »

Unacceptable. Your manager wouldn't let you off the hook very easily if you just decided to not do your job. Don't let him off the hook either, a capable manager should be able to answer these questions and provide direction.

I have worked at places where hiring managers could not discuss the interview process with candidates after the fact. It was an HR pollicy. Only the HR rep could say something genric like "ultimately we chose to go with a person who had more years of experience" or blah, blah, blah...

However, in all of these places there were clear mentoring plans for helping workers train for other positions within the company. You did not simply work with your manager on this but you worked directly with someone who was in the type of function or position you wished to attain.

earweed

You mentioned earlier that your boss wants you to be the team lead. If it means a raise in pay then take it but still start looking elsewhere. Having team lead on your resume can't hurt. Just a thought.

NinjaBoy

JockVSJock wrote: »

Right, my manager wants me to become a Team Lead. Why? All I want to do is move beyond the Help Desk, not continue to work in it.

It could be that in the eyes of your manager/employer, your working habits and your soft skills base that they believe that for business needs you're better suited/utilised for the team leader position and don't want to lose that asset.

IMO if I was in your position, I would take the team leader position gain that experience, then move on up. But that's just me.

-ken

it_consultant

I have only recently been promoted from within. The problem I had was that I would make a mistake that was remembered (either totally my fault or not) and that would haunt me when I tried to become upwardly mobile. In every case there was a bit of personality conflict as well.

It sounds like you are in a similar position, the only way you are going to move up is to take risk and find another job. Look at consulting, even if you get hired on as desktop support the demands of consulting will often put you in a position to get experience normally reserved for sys and net admins.

powerfool

NinjaBoy wrote: »

It could be that in the eyes of your manager/employer, your working habits and your soft skills base that they believe that for business needs you're better suited/utilised for the team leader position and don't want to lose that asset.

IMO if I was in your position, I would take the team leader position gain that experience, then move on up. But that's just me.

-ken

Yes, definitely a good move. You get that title, and potentially a better salary base from which to negotiate. The key thing you will have to be prepared for, however is "why are you seeking another position after just getting a promotion." I don't know what the best answer is, but I can see downsides to many of them.

colemic

Have you considered the possibility of discrimination? (I assume you are female from your pic) If the managers won't give you any kind of feedback, then I would think about a trip to HR.

...of course, this is a much better option if you already have something else lined up.

N2IT

powerfool wrote: »

Yes, definitely a good move. You get that title, and potentially a better salary base from which to negotiate. The key thing you will have to be prepared for, however is "why are you seeking another position after just getting a promotion." I don't know what the best answer is, but I can see downsides to many of them.

This I agree with however the only one that can make this decision is you JvsJ.

I would jump at the chance of being a team lead, maybe you can negotiation the title to supervisor. That to me is a much better title and could lead to more opportunities. We all know how those HR goons are

If you are strictly interested in moving up the food chain from a technology standpoint I would start looking for a new job. From the way you described it, you have little future left at your current company.

Forsaken_GA

billyr wrote: »

I wouldn't take the rejection personally, it may even be a compliment to you in a round about way.
It's not uncommon for managers to want to hold on to their best personnel in existing roles.

compliment or not, if this is the case, he needs to start looking elsewhere. If you're viewed as irreplaceable in your current role, you can't be promoted out of it

tomahawkeer

Ask your manager what is up, etc, like you have in the past, but know in the back of your head, that unless they promote you, in the near future, that you are going to be working somewhere else in the not too distant future! I think I would have started after the first or second time personally.

Sabalo

My initial thought is that since they're willing to promote you within the help desk but they're not allowing you to move beyond the help desk, you're probably seen (by someone) as too valuable to replace where you are. Being mercenary-minded, I suggest looking for a new job if you feel that it is hindering your growth.

Chris:/*

It could also be they want you to attain some leadership experience before you move on.