My view on IT/CS degrees

WilliamK99

hex_omega wrote: »

Whaaaa? umad, breh?

With applicable experience of course... Like I mentioned in my followup post, 9 times out of 10 when 2 people apply for a job, one with an AA and minimal experience and another with no degree and some experience, the experience will win out... In the IT field especially, an AA doesn't account for much....

themagicone

Well let me tell a story... I'm 27. I've worked almost full time since I've been 14. Did some time in the Air Force, ran my own business and managed service for huge areas. But here I am... 14 years of field work, field engineering, etc and I can't get a damn job. Why? I don't have a degree. I can basically fix anything from car washes to small lab equipment and anything in between. My mind work in weird ways, I'm able to see things - how they are suppose to work and what their suppose to do - visually in my head. This gives me crazy abilities when it comes to repair, installing, etc of various equipment. At my last job I had a base pay of around $42k/year but with overtime I pushing $60k to $70k. Will I ever see that again? Probably not. Everyplace wants a degree now. That is why I'm getting my IT degree. I'm tired of being looked down upon even though I have 14 years of experience and can easily school people twice my age in electrical and electronics. I'd get my BSEE but I just can't do the math so my next best idea is the IT degree then getting a MBA after. Plus I can shove my degree in my sisters face who also looks down on me cause she when and got her masters (and ultimately thinks she's better than everyone else).

My biggest push for the degree is I'm planning on starting a family and want to provide for them. I want to be able to let my wife stay home for the first year after we have our child. There was no way without a degree that was going to happen. I couldn't care less what people think about the BSIT, WGU or anything for that matter - what does matter is that I will have a BSIT and can say I finished something.

Psoasman

WilliamK99 wrote: »

... In the IT field especially, an AA doesn't account for much....

Why not? Working on my AAS degree has only benefited me at my current position. When your employer notices you going out of your way to further your education, that can only be a good thing.
How would you feel about a person with an AAS degree, some certs, and experience?

Psoasman

themagicone wrote: »

My biggest push for the degree is I'm planning on starting a family and want to provide for them. I want to be able to let my wife stay home for the first year after we have our child. There was no way without a degree that was going to happen. I couldn't care less what people think about the BSIT, WGU or anything for that matter - what does matter is that I will have a BSIT and can say I finished something.

Good for you! I am doing the same thing. I have quite a few certs, but no degree. I wanted to at least get my AAS degree, so my resume would be a little more rounded out. I would hate to apply for a job and have my resume get tossed in the trash simply because the HR rep didn't see a degree listed.

Bl8ckr0uter

WilliamK99 wrote: »

1) Bachelors
2) experience
3) Certifications
4) Associates

I think your list is off too. I think it would be more like this for most jobs:

1:Experience
2:Certifications
3: Degrees

For some jobs, the degree holds more weight (abet type jobs, research jobs, jobs in certain environments, etc). I think that the guy got passed over because experience is King, not because he had an associates. I think your logic is severely flawed if "Associates= not a degree" was what you gathered from that exchange. It also becomes personality and individual specific as well.

Two people going for the same job: All things equal but one of them is a douche, obviously the douche isn't going to get the job. Personality plays a big role as well. Presentation comes into play as well. Hell EOE and AA could come into play as well.

WilliamK99

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I think your list is off too. I think it would be more like this for most jobs:

1:Experience
2:Certifications
3: Degrees

For some jobs, the degree holds more weight (abet type jobs, research jobs, jobs in certain environments, etc). I think that the guy got passed over because experience is King, not because he had an associates. I think your logic is severely flawed if "Associates= not a degree" was what you gathered from that exchange. It also becomes personality and individual specific as well.

Two people going for the same job: All things equal but one of them is a douche, obviously the douche isn't going to get the job. Personality plays a big role as well. Presentation comes into play as well. Hell EOE and AA could come into play as well.

I've seen the douche get the job many a times

jmasterj206

WilliamK99 wrote: »

In the United States I have seen a guy with an Associates, some certs and no experience get passed over for a guy with no degree, some certs and some experience. I just don't think an associates matters right now. I look at an Associates as a stepping stone to a Bachelors but too many times like the OP, they stop at the Associates and wonder why they cant get a good job.

In my experience companies consider the following factors

1) Bachelors
2) experience
3) Certifications
4) Associates

So basically out of all 4 things employers look for in the IT industry, an Associates ranks on the bottom IMO...

I have to disagree with you here. My first job I got my job over people with Bachelor's degrees. I had an AAS in IT. Even in their job description they required a Bachelor's. The people with the Bachelor's couldn't answer the technical questions because they didn't get their hands on the equipment. Now if you are talking about an AA degree I may somewhat agree with you.

More companies now are asking for bachelor's degree with the economy and can get away with it. This is also why you are seeing more people go back to school. Regardless, experience trumps all.

azjag

I felt like chiming in here. Getting my Bachelors degree opened up more doors for larger corporations than my Associates. In fact, I have seen the Bachelors degree used by HR to filter out candidates who will make it to the next stage of the interview process. Based solely on whether or not they have one. Past that, the decision was based on experience first and foremost, then certifications. It is easier for an HR person to identify a degree, especially since there are only 4 levels of degrees: Associates, Bachelors, Masters and Doctoral (talking US only). But with all the different certifications out there it is less likely for a HR generalist to know the difference between them all. Just my 2 cents.

tango3065

See what I mean, all these posts about I have seen guys without degrees getting the job over someone with one!!! That's the problem with IT/CS, there is no set standards and a degree in IT/CS might help might not .

erpadmin

jmasterj206 wrote: »

Regardless, experience trumps all.

+1 on this.

In order, this is what I (would) look for:

1) Experience
2) Degree (from the AAS to a post-graduate)
3) Certifications

I will say this though about that list...if the person is like me and has no degree, then his experience and certs are looked at hardcore. The lack of a degree won't disqualify him...especially if (like me) he had some college.

Remember guys, this is all opinion-based and depending on our status in this field, this may/may not hold any water when all is said and done. It is always going to be what the hiring manager finds important. There are so many other things that go into account as well:

1) Organizational Fit
2) Personality (if you are a certain hygienic product, the job will probably not be yours...lmao)
3) Self-starting attitude (IT is not a place where your hand is to be held 8 hours of the day...if this is you, look elsewhere)

ibcritn

azjag wrote: »

Bachelors degree used by HR to filter out candidates

+1 on this. Most companies that have their act together (Successful) get a lot of applicants....and this is how they commonly filter those applicants.

erpadmin

tango3065 wrote: »

That's the problem with IT/CS, there is no set standards and a degree in IT/CS might help might not .

Oh I promise you...it'll help me. [At least I hope so...won't know until after 2012 though...but if you pm me your email address, I'd love to let you know, personally.]

BTW, it's not everyday a new guy on the forums starts a very lively and spirited discussion. Thanks for that and welcome to TE.

azjag

erpadmin wrote: »

+1 on this.

In order, this is what I (would) look for:

1) Experience
2) Degree (from the AAS to a post-graduate)
3) Certifications

I will say this though about that list...if the person is like me and has no degree, then his experience and certs are looked at hardcore. The lack of a degree won't disqualify him...especially if (like me) he had some college.

Remember guys, this is all opinion-based and depending on our status in this field, this may/may not hold any water when all is said and done. It is always going to be what the hiring manager finds important. There are so many other things that go into account as well:

1) Organizational Fit
2) Personality (if you are a certain hygienic product, the job will probably not be yours...lmao)
3) Self-starting attitude (IT is not a place where your hand is to be held 8 hours of the day...if this is you, look elsewhere)

I agree 100% with what ERPadmin is saying here. However, companies like Boeing and Intel, where I have been a contractor before, your resume won't make it to the hiring manager desk if you don't have a 4 yr degree. I asked HR about this policy and was told very matter of factly that if they have a choice between somebody with less experience and a degree and somebody with more experience and no degree, they will hire the person with the degree. They can pay the person less to gain the experience, and they have the ability to say they maintain a minimum level of college experience for all employees. Keeps everybody on the same "level" playing field and eliminates the "I have a degree but the other person doesn't and we do the same job" complaint. Everybody else without a 4 yr degree is a contractor.

azjag

erpadmin wrote: »

BTW, it's not everyday a new guy on the forums starts a very lively and spirited discussion. Thanks for that and welcome to TE.

I didn't realize this was your first thread. Welcome to TE

SteveLord

azjag wrote: »

I asked HR about this policy and was told very matter of factly that if they have a choice between somebody with less experience and a degree and somebody with more experience and no degree, they will hire the person with the degree. They can pay the person less to gain the experience, and they have the ability to say they maintain a minimum level of college experience for all employees. Keeps everybody on the same "level" playing field and eliminates the "I have a degree but the other person doesn't and we do the same job" complaint. Everybody else without a 4 yr degree is a contractor.

Interesting. Thanks for sharing that.

Met44

tango3065 wrote: »

IT/CS

IT and CS are very different areas of study, though the definition of Computer Science seems to be getting fuzzier and fuzzier. Messing around with code is great, but this is not the same as learning advanced applied math skills and creating efficient algorithms. As far as work in these fields goes, unless you mean "web developer" when you say "computer scientist", to lump IT and CS together in an analysis seems to be a mistake.

tango3065

Yeah I have been a long time lurker and used this forum to help me complete my certs, I was currently working on MY CCNA also but ended up throwing the book away when I figured out I wanted to go back to school for something that requires a degree. I will always value IT and might continue to do some work on the side as I do now but I do feel that I wasted a degree on a field that don't require it and I just hope that someone thinking of doing the same takes a look at my thoughts and first hand experience and decides to get a degree in a field that it requires the paper.

TrainingDaze

tango3065 wrote: »

...I do feel that I wasted a degree on a field that don't require it and I just hope that someone thinking of doing the same takes a look at my thoughts and first hand experience and decides to get a degree in a field that it requires the paper.

This is horrible advice and I advise that any high schooler or person interested in higher education reading this should lookup the enormous difference a person's education has on their salary and decide for themselves (Job Salary Earnings Comparison - College Degrees and High School Diploma)

CS and IT degrees rank consistently among the highest paying degrees straight out of college as well (Computer Science Degree Salary - Computer Science Salaries - PayScale)

In the DC area a bachelor's degree is pretty much equivalent to a high school diploma now in that everyone has one/is expected to have one if you want to make a good living.

tango3065

REALLY, HUH? How is it bad advise to tell someone to get a degree in something that requires you to have a degree?

ibcritn

tango3065 wrote: »

REALLY, HUH? How is it bad advise to tell someone to get a degree in something that requires you to have a degree?

I think its due to the fact that people should follow their passion. They should also realize that getting a degree in IT/IS/CS these days is still very helpful to their career.

I wouldn't have my job if it weren't for my degree.

erpadmin

tango3065 wrote: »

REALLY, HUH? How is it bad advise to tell someone to get a degree in something that requires you to have a degree?

Tango, what degree are you going for now or plan on going for that isn't CS or IT related? That bit of information may help in strengthening your argument.

TrainingDaze

tango3065 wrote: »

REALLY, HUH? How is it bad advise to tell someone to get a degree in something that requires you to have a degree?

The danger with this is that that some high school kid might stumble upon this thread and get the impression that an IT/CS degree isn't necessary. Now you may believe this to be true and that's fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinion.

However the data and figures that I have posted say otherwise. IT and CS degrees are in high demand and not only does it get you a piece of paper that opens doors and lifts ceilings, but the degree also builds your network, exposes you to public speaking, sharpens your writing ability etc.... If I see a posting that I strongly feel is wrong and could be detrimental to others then I feel obligated to counterbalance that with facts and figures.

Now if you have any actual data or figures that back up your statement of an IT/CS degree not holding value in the job market (other than "I've seen at my work that so-and-so doesn't") then please share.

NinjaBoy

I left the US in my Teen's so my further/higher education knowledge isn't as good as my knowledge for the UK.

Aren't there alternatives to degree out there in the US? If there are, how are they viewed?

As for degree alternatives, we have over here the:

Vocational route: NVQ 4 (comparable to a BA/BSc) and NVQ 5 (comparable to a Masters)

Further Education route: Level 6 is comparable to a BA/BSc level and Level 7 comparable to a Master level

The degree alternatives are not available for all areas, eg Yes for Law, IT, Teaching, etc... But No for Medicine. But for the fields that the alternatives are available in, they are viewed well.

By the sounds of it, most IT jobs in the States require you to have a degree, why is that? (I mean I remember when I grew up there, it was almost like it was drumed into me: Elementary -> High School -> College/Uni to get a degree)

Whereas in the UK, it's different. Most IT jobs, unless it's a graduate job, list degrees as a desirable rather than an essential (if they list them). Approx 50% of IT manager jobs that I've seen list degrees (or equivalent) as a requirement.

Not so sure about our version of the AA/AS, the Foundation Degree (FdA and FdSc) as they are relatively new. We do have Higher National Diplomas (HND), which the seems to be replaced by the Foundation Degrees - and they were viewed well (especially when they could do a top-up year to get the full degree when they wanted to).

-Ken

Turgon

NinjaBoy wrote: »

I left the US in my Teen's so my further/higher education knowledge isn't as good as my knowledge for the UK.

Aren't there alternatives to degree out there in the US? If there are, how are they viewed?

As for degree alternatives, we have over here the:

Vocational route: NVQ 4 (comparable to a BA/BSc) and NVQ 5 (comparable to a Masters)

Further Education route: Level 6 is comparable to a BA/BSc level and Level 7 comparable to a Master level

The degree alternatives are not available for all areas, eg Yes for Law, IT, Teaching, etc... But No for Medicine. But for the fields that the alternatives are available in, they are viewed well.

By the sounds of it, most IT jobs in the States require you to have a degree, why is that? (I mean I remember when I grew up there, it was almost like it was drumed into me: Elementary -> High School -> College/Uni to get a degree)

Whereas in the UK, it's different. Most IT jobs, unless it's a graduate job, list degrees as a desirable rather than an essential (if they list them). Approx 50% of IT manager jobs that I've seen list degrees (or equivalent) as a requirement.

Not so sure about our version of the AA/AS, the Foundation Degree (FdA and FdSc) as they are relatively new. We do have Higher National Diplomas (HND), which the seems to be replaced by the Foundation Degrees - and they were viewed well (especially when they could do a top-up year to get the full degree when they wanted to).

-Ken

There are employers who like degreed people in the UK. Occasionally you see it advertised although generally these tend to be for banking jobs. In this case they are usually looking for a 2.1 or higher. Other than these and other exceptions experience is often seen as more valuable than University education. This tends to hold true in Europe as well.

While University is often looked for in entry level jobs in the large firms, the lack of a degree does not necessarily preclude candidates from landing many senior management jobs.

eansdad

Is it possible to get a job without a degree? Yes - Anything is possible, you won't see a lot of upper level jobs given without one or without years of experience and high level certs unless if you know the right people. Our shop just hired someone without a degree or certs and very little experience over someone with a degree (none IT) and an A+ with the same amount of experience. The difference ... the 1st guy knew the people doing the hiring. This was for a desktop support type job that also requires some admin level work. Out of our shop of 10 people we have 2 with a BS with 1 that is IT related 7 people with certs but nothing higher then Net+. We have 5 people that have been here 10yrs+, 2 more that are 7yrs+, myself at 5yrs and 2 new hires. And what does it all spell....This place is a mess....

Does a piece of paper mean know something? NO, but it does help you stand out from the crowd of others. I have 10 years in the field and just this past 2-3 months sat for my 1st exams. IT is no longer the have a cert get a job and work your way up type of career. Sure the cert can get you in but you'll either be pigeon holed into a certain job or have to do a majority or IT work that used to be several different people. A lot of us with experience are now going back to school for our BS and MS degrees along with mid/higher level certifications. Why?? Because new jobs are demanding it. Without a degree AND certs you typically will not advance any higher then desktop support. Why would anyone want to hire a network admin without a degree if they have 100 qualified applicants with one?

Times are tough and that makes companies able to be picker about what they deem a requirement for an applicant. 5 years ago I had my choice of jobs including a network admin position because I had/have the ability/experience...Now I don't get a lot of calls for the jobs I would like to move to because the HR people tell me I do not have the right certs and a degree. The calls I do get are for helpdesk even though I have admin experience and even managed a few teams on various projects.

So to sum it up you will never go wrong with a degree but don't stop there. I've seen people graduate thinking they could get top jobs with just a BS only to find themselves at the same starting point as everyone else. If you get the degree and the certs the experience will follow. If you get just the certs or degree the experience will follow slower. If you start with nothing it will still get the experience but not always in what you want.

The more education (includes certs and experience) you have the more doors that will be open to you. Remain stubborn and do nothing and you will stay where you are. No one wants to invest in someone who doesn't want to invest in themselves.

networker050184

At the end of the day all that matters is if you can get the job done or not. Some people spend four years in school learning and some spend those four years on the job learning. Which one is valued more is all a matter of opinion. We can all state our arguments and experience on the matter until we are blue in the face, but the only opinion that matters is the one reading your resume.

joshmadakor

WilliamK99 wrote: »

having no degree is better than an Associates....

Lol, you sure about that champ?

Sounds Good

IT is a relatively new profession. IT degrees were not around 10-20 years ago loosely speaking. Now that they are available, people are going to be expected to have it if they want to even make it past the resume pile. As time goes on, there will be more of a demand for people with IT degrees as the profession becomes more popular as it is expected to be.

petedude

tango3065 wrote: »

. . .
IT/CS is not a professional field in my opinion, if it where it would have educational requirements and not hire someone that is just good at working on PC's, or writing some code that they learned by messing around.

Sounds like:
a) a chip on someone's shoulder;
b) the professionalism issue is more with your coworkers than with the field itself.

it_consultant

Professionalism is a problem in our field and I regularly rail on it in these forums. People who are really naturally good at IT (highly detailed, ordered, focused) can have personality traits that people who are not in IT find strange. I am seriously generalizing with this, so please don't be offended. My cousin is one such example, he is a brilliant UNIX guy, but he needs to be told that wearing ironed clothes is almost as important to perception as keeping the servers up.

Think of your coworkers in the field and think how many of them fit traits found in people with Asperger's Syndrome.

Asperger's syndrome - MayoClinic.com