Being asked to do something illegal on the job

forkvoid

Folks,

I've been asked to do something illegal in regards to software licensing. I have confirmed that what he asking is against licensing agreements. My boss has demanded that I perform these software installations anyways, telling me to "get over it" and "this is not a moral or ethical issue, this is the real world". I have refused to comply so far, but as it's kind of critical to continued operations, it's going to come to a head in the near future.

So, folks, what would you do?

rsutton

Don't do it. Your boss does't supersede the law, and however unlikely it may seem, if charges were raised against you, saying that your boss told you to do it wouldn't carry any weight in court. If you feel like your job is in jeopardy, make sure you document everything he asks you to do including times and if there were witnesses.

Plantwiz

It is easier said then done...but that would be something (even back to the days of my youth) I would not do.


And that means tonight, I would get ready to be looking for a new job or begin my own consulting work. Be prepared.


1. Get in writting the activity you are asked to perform along with your refusal to follow that task due to the violation of the license.
2. Cite the license again (in writing) and urge for another solution, including paying for the correct solution if an alternative isn't available.
3. Be ready to be without a work after your meeting until you locate a new job...or create a new job.
4. Forward your documention to the licensing vendor and sit or just let the company think that you will be ratting them out
5. If you have an HR department or better yet legal, you may see if they can assist you...though they may take the side of your boss...it may be worth the effort.

Integrity is the ONE thing you always take with you. Once you blow it...it is gone and is very difficult to repair. I know how difficult it is to do the right thing, but long-term it pays off. Tomorrow night, you may feel alone, but if you did all you could to prevent something that is preventable from happening the problem is no longer on you. Be ready to fight or to walk (or to fight and then be escorted out), but get your ducks in a row and stand your ground.

If your facts are correct, and the company is about to make a large dollar mistake (fines and possibly bad press) then stand your ground.

Are you 100% alone on this one? Or do you have some co-workers who disagree with this course? What about your boss's boss (if there is one)?

See if you can research your State's unemployement laws too.

If you work record is clean up to this point...there is a good chance they may make your work life 4ell but may not be able to fire you. At this point, start looking for something else.

Otherwise, be ready to be looking for something else.


If I was in your place...I'd try to educate them on NOT doing this, then if they pushed, I'd resign (and most will say let them fire you...and legally you have more room if they fire you, but Life is too Short to deal with that stress (for me)).

Best of luck tomorrow. I hope they come around and see the right thing to do!

cyberguypr

If it is critical for operations there should be no problem justifying an expenditure. Although some companies don't care about little details like the LAW. Be ready for some retaliation.

RobertKaucher

I was employed by a firm that had the same attitude in 11/2008. I had quit by 2/2009. Best choice I ever made. I'm not risking my career for a job.

sambuca69

IMO, unless you are some sort of bored millionare, and that's why you show up for work, i would just do it.

just have it documented to cover your ass.

forkvoid

Here's a bit more details about the situation...

The company is a small consulting firm. My boss has a partner, but my boss is the gorilla in the company. His partner is a fantastic guy who will agree with me, but holds very little sway. The boss is on the verge of buying out his partner's portion, just to get rid of him. His partner is the HR guy. There is no legal department. Entire company is ~6 people.

I am the only IT guy on staff. He has two consultants he has asked and they both disagreed with my "interpretation of the license". I know for certain that neither are particularly concerned about licensing either, as a result of working with them over the past year. Their word means about a thousand times more than mine does, as they have more years of experience than I do and several years worth of relationship with the boss.

The licensing in question is nothing at all! ~$2700 total. My boss is not a fan of spending money at all, ever. It took me weeks to convince him to buy me a second monitor($140).

This is not the only time I have been asked to lay my ethics aside--first month of the job, I accidentally bought the wrong memory for a server, costing us $600 with no refund available and haven't been able to resell it. He told me to lie to the vendor that it was broken. I said it wasn't broken. He told me to slice some traces on the sticks. I told him he could take it out of my paycheck if he was that worried about it, because I wasn't going to lie for him. He did something similar later, asking me to lie to one of software vendors to get another software activation(we had hit the cap) by saying we had decommissioned a machine(we hadn't).

Both of those times, I was able to stand up and then ignore it, as nothing ever happened afterwards. This time, it's pretty much required.

I have a Skype chat log saved to my home system as well as printed out, stored at my house. I have audio recording of my discussion with the software vendor and them saying exactly what is legit and what is not(proving that I'm in the right).

Frankly, I have no desire to stay with this company. Unfortunately, there simply seem to be no jobs in my area. If I am fired, as I suspect may happen, I have no idea where I'll go. I've been actively searching for about four months now.

I am especially concerned about the repercussions if I were to do it. In some cases, doing something illegal at the behest of management does not save the employee from legal action. I have not been able to find anything online about specifics.

Thanks for your answers, guys. Especially Plantwiz, very informative.

tiersten

Considering how this guy acts, I'd expect you to be the one in trouble if it ever gets discovered. Your boss will just go "Oh well I had no idea. forkvoid is the IT guy and its all his fault. I had no idea! Sue him!" You don't want anything like that to be linked to you or end up with some kind of criminal record if its even possible to get one from this sort of thing.

I doubt that Skype chat logs will have any weight at all in court since they can be easily faked. Regarding the audio recording of your vendors, were they aware that you were recording it? Some areas have laws which make it illegal to record conversations without both parties being aware. Other areas just need the consent on one party only.

You might be able to ignore it now but its just a ticking bomb until something does happen.

forkvoid

tiersten wrote: »

I doubt that Skype chat logs will have any weight at all in court since they can be easily faked. Regarding the audio recording of your vendors, were they aware that you were recording it? Some areas have laws which make it illegal to record conversations without both parties being aware. Other areas just need the consent on one party only.

Any documentation is better than no documentation. It raises doubt on validity of statements. If he says X and I pull out something that says X is wrong, people are going to start asking a whole lot more questions.

My state is a one-party state. Already checked on those laws prior to the recording.

jtoast

It's easy to say don't do it if it's not your job on the line. I personally would tell the boss that I will do the install but that I am also going to notify the software vendor of the licensing issue. If he and his consultants are confident in their opinion, they should have no problem with that.

If they balk at the notification, then you know they were just setting you up to be the fall guy. In that case I would probably tell them no and start hunting for both a job and an attorney who specialized in wrongful termination cases.

This is assuming that you have actually called the vendor and asked them for clarification on the terms of their license in writing.

nrs

I agree with those who said do not do it.

I would make sure you have some type of written documentation from the vendor stating your understanding of the license is correct (note.. this isn't the license information itself, but a letter or email from them to you or your company outlining the issue and confirming your understanding.)

Then... I wouldn't do it - find anyone else in the company you can talk to. Your bosss's boss .. the owner, someone in HR ... anyone.

The long and short of it is - if they're going to fire you, you're going to file for unemployment. Unemployment is going to want to know the details of why you got fired - and you'll have to give them your documentation.

MattSC

Don't copy that floppy!

networker050184

While I'd like to think I'd do the right thing the reality is I need a job to support my family. I wouldn't risk getting fired, but I'd start looking for something new ASAP.

za3bour

networker050184 wrote: »

While I'd like to think I'd do the right thing the reality is I need a job to support my family. I wouldn't risk getting fired, but I'd start looking for something new ASAP.

I agree, it's easy for us to say do not do it but in reality all of us did something wrong at least once in their career.

WilliamK99

Get it from him in writing. That would help considerably if the crap hit the fan so to speak. Otherwise he will claim he had no idea you were doing something illegal.... Trust me, look after yourself, because your boss sure isn't.

milanchatterjee

Hi Buddy
As I am from India, I am not familiar with the Un-employment benefit or any such issues in USA. But regarding the illegal thing, I know a thing or two.

Please understand, that trust or integrity, in turbulent times like at present, if broken, can NEVER BE GOTTEN BACK, how ever you try.

I can understand that your pressing situation, but what I know slightly of US laws is that, even if the boss gives a written order to you and you do it, you are still WRONG.

So, DO NOT DO IT.

Milan Chatterjee

billyr

Being a fan of being able to pay my mortgage i'd normally advise to go ahead and do it, but to get it in writing on an e-mail etc just in case aything ever came back from it.

Along the lines of a quick e-mail to the boss saying: "I am unsure as to the licensing issues regarding said piece of software to be installed on our customers machine could you just confirm that it will not be a problem to go ahead with the install, i'd like to get started as soon as possible."

To be honest though, if that's the kind of guy he is then you have probably already burned your bridges by turning him down and making an issue of it. I'd say he'll probably get shot of you the first chance he can. You might as well stick to your guns and start searching for a new job, if you get fired go for unfair dismissal.

tpatt100

I would probably make sure you have enough savings set aside and report it. It will take a while anyway (I guess) to get fired.

If you do get fired make sure you save what ever you documented and get a lawyer and sue the company. I figure sue them for wages under the assumption you would stay with the company until the age of 65 plus raises and promotions lol

bertieb

Aside from the good advice, I just wanted to commend your initial reaction and the fact that you simply didn't just 'do it' 'cos your boss said so.

As the others have said, its a difficult situation to be in (I've been there quite some time ago) and like the others, I looked for a way out asap and never looked back. I can appreciate its pretty difficult out there at the moment with regards to jobs, but I can't fault your ethics/morals. IT is a small world, people move in familiar circles and I bet you would have done far more harm in the long run if you would have blindly followed this chumps orders and ruined your reputation. Well done and best of luck!

SephStorm

See if anyone on here is hiring.

briangl

I would consult with a lawyer.

RobertKaucher

The type of people who do this and refuse to acknowledge the immorality of it, are not the types of people you want to work for. There will be other issues along the line (one of which you are already aware of - the cheap factor). The major concern I have is that a person like this will throw you under the bus/stab you in tha back with no hesitation at any point he feels like it will save him a buck.

Daniel333

forkvoid wrote: »

Folks,

I've been asked to do something illegal in regards to software licensing. I have confirmed that what he asking is against licensing agreements. My boss has demanded that I perform these software installations anyways, telling me to "get over it" and "this is not a moral or ethical issue, this is the real world". I have refused to comply so far, but as it's kind of critical to continued operations, it's going to come to a head in the near future.

So, folks, what would you do?

I have reached complete apathy on the subject. This crap happens all the time. What can you do? Deploy Linux and do as your boss tells you? Play dumb if someone starts asking you questions. Have some basic CYA: An invoice from management; Something on file anytime you deploy something without a license.
If you complain you'll just get replaced, or at the very least held back. Remember the squeaky break gets replaced.
What I have learned in recent days is "forgetting" to license something is pretty much how a lot of smaller companies handle things when they need to undercut the competition. They just settle up if they have to do a software audit. Microsoft won't sue partners if you call their piracy line, they will just ask their partners to verify their licensing and pay for anything unlicensed.
I only had to deal with Microsoft one time on behalf of our clients who were all sharing one copy of Microsoft student teacher edition. We knew they needed to legitimize when they took us on, and they “didn’t want to”. They REFUSED to get legit! We tried for months until one day they started getting the “you have 30 days stuff”
Their director (small law firm) got on the line with Microsoft licensing with me and yelled and screamed for an hour. Essentially he accused Microsoft of "issuing the wrong install key and media" 5 years ago and demanding they provide "proof" that it wasn't their error. Long story short, they were issued an apology and given 10 copies of Office Pro free to replace it which I in turn had to install. He even went to try and get money out of them for associated IT costs in deploying the software.

msteinhilber

First thing that comes to mind is it sounds like it's long overdue that your boss's partner who you describe as a nice guy finally grow a pair. If he's seeking to buy out his partner/your boss to get rid of the problems associated with it, he best find the ability within him to not always be the nice guy and man up and take lead and direction because if he can't do that now with a partner who sounds like they are the alpha male, how does he expect to continue the success of his company?

Have you spoken directly to this nice partner of your boss to gather his input even though you mentioned he has little weight in regards to operations of the company? Perhaps it's best he understands the decision your boss has made, it's legal implications for the organization and possibly yourself, the potential damage to your career, etc.

EDIT: Sorry, just re-read and noticed the boss is the one considering buying out the spineless partner. I'd still let the nice guy know whats up though, he's still partner and still has say. And since I didn't cover it in my main post... I'd not do it as well. Job's might be hard to come by and money is a much needed commodity for most gainfully employed individuals and a commodity many don't have enough stashed away of to risk losing one's job... but the moment I bend/twist my morals/values to align with those of the company I work for - especially when it's unlawful... that's the moment I stopped being an employee and volunteered to be a slave to the system - no thanks.

phoeneous

MattSC wrote: »

Don't copy that floppy!

Plantwiz

msteinhilber wrote: »

First thing that comes to mind is it sounds like it's long overdue that your boss's partner who you describe as a nice guy finally grow a pair. If he's seeking to buy out his partner/your boss to get rid of the problems associated with it, he best find the ability within him to not always be the nice guy and man up and take lead and direction because if he can't do that now with a partner who sounds like they are the alpha male, how does he expect to continue the success of his company?

Have you spoken directly to this nice partner of your boss to gather his input even though you mentioned he has little weight in regards to operations of the company? Perhaps it's best he understands the decision your boss has made, it's legal implications for the organization and possibly yourself, the potential damage to your career, etc.

EDIT: Sorry, just re-read and noticed the boss is the one considering buying out the spineless partner. I'd still let the nice guy know whats up though, he's still partner and still has say. And since I didn't cover it in my main post... I'd not do it as well. Job's might be hard to come by and money is a much needed commodity for most gainfully employed individuals and a commodity many don't have enough stashed away of to risk losing one's job... but the moment I bend/twist my morals/values to align with those of the company I work for - especially when it's unlawful... that's the moment I stopped being an employee and volunteered to be a slave to the system - no thanks.

I agree.


If it is wrong. It is wrong.

Despite several comments stating to 'play dumb' or 'do it, but CYA' or 'you need the job, do it, but look for something else'...a few of us has stood by you cannot repair your integrity if you do something you already know is wrong.

It has never been said doing the right thing is easy. It is rarely easy, but that is what separates people you want to hire (or have on your team) from those who you won't do business with because you never can tell when they'll 'cut-a-corner'.

forkvoid, it sounds like you have made a decision on how to handle things. Best of luck to you.

For those who say 'eh...it doesn't matter, just do it', how do you feel about using ****? Or stealing movies (or applications) on-line? Or copyright rights in general? Does your opinion change if YOU were the author and someone stole your intellectual property?

These things do matter. If you are a parent, they matter because you are teaching your children cheating/stealing is 'ok'. If you are not a parent, you are permitting your peers to see you ****/steal or you may allow them to ****/steal (so you can use that as your excuse at a later date or some other reason), but when no one says 'No, that is not ok' then we all lose.
Authorities raid Kentwood Pharmacy locations, accuse it of taking back unused medications and redistributing them | MLive.com

things that may happen:
1. trust is broken
2. prices escalate (as different safeguards and labeling added to the process)
3. more laws added

Take a pharmacy in Michigan for example, for a long time, they followed their own rules. Due to their actions, patients and medical establishments (doctors, etc...) have no idea how much damage if any true damage is done. But trust was broken. Patients don't know if they can trust their doctor's prescription...and Doctor's don't know if they can trust placing an order to certain companies.


If the pills were merely 'recycled' and still non-expired pills were re-issued (and unaltered/contaminated) than perhaps no one was 'harmed' physically, but the integrity of custody was broken and NO ONE can say with 100% certainty that the pills that were repackaged were sterile and or at their full potency.

Since the largest customers were care centers of the elderly, does your opinion of 'it's ok, no one will notice' change when you consider your family may have been affected?

SO does any of this compare to a business that wants to 'steal' licensing? Well, as their customer (or their vendor) can you trust them? How do you know they are 'faking' a claim or cheating you on your product/service? When they do that sort of thing...it really didn't hurt 'you' did it?


Each of us may face this type of situation or similar in our careers, sometimes it comes up several times over a few decades of work...doing the right thing is not easy, but seems to pay off.

Stay true to the person you are. If you are not a thief than do not let someone place you in that situation. Call their bluff (sometimes, they too wouldn't do it, but figure your integrity doesn't matter as much as their own, and will let you risk the consequences rather than take it on for themselves). Be prepared to be looking for a new job.


Back to forkvoid:
Maybe the other partner is ready to leave too and you and he can start a new company?

DevilWAH

My advice is to get it in writing from him that he is taking personability for sorting out the licencing for the software, and has made agreements with the company for you to proceed.

In writting sigined by him and the partner, stating that the software company and your bosses have agreed on this action. And when I say signed I mean signed by all three of you in duplicate all havign your own copy.

And with verbale agreement that he will carry out what he has promised.

With out that stand clear and refuse.

I know I worked in a larger scale, but we used volume licencing and installed new software before we paid, paying in bulk at the end of each month for the software installed.

Now I ahve no idea if the company actuly did pay for ever bit I installed, but the agreement was that I informed the financing department when I installed software and they delt with the money. (I do infact know we paied as we where a govement company and one of my jobs was to compare support calls with licencing costs)

but what I am saying is that if he takes responsibility for the licencing and stats he will / has sorted it out. Then that is not your job to worry about.

However if he is asking you to down load key gens, or licence mutiply coppies under a single user licence key then you should never do it as no matter if he takes responsibility you your self are still breaking the law.

When some one hires a hit man, the person hiring may be found guilty of the crimes. But what you can always be sure of is that the hitman him self will be...

forkvoid

Thanks for your help guys.

I spoke with the partner today and told him everything that transpired, including previous attempts by my boss to get me to lie to benefit him. The partner is aware of problems, but not on this scale. He asked me my purpose for coming to him and what I hoped to gain. I told him to cover my own arse for sake of legal liability, and primarily, my own integrity. I told him if it came down to 'Do it or be fired', I would be walking. As the partner told me, "Then it's my job to make sure you stay, so I'll do my best to get this sorted."

It is now on official record that I have formally refused to perform the software installation, knowing that it isn't legit.

We'll see what happens on Monday when my boss and the partner have their conversation.

Meanwhile... anyone hiring in East TN?

apena7

You did the right thing.

It may not mean much, but I commend you for having character and not being one who will compromise their integrity for something as trivial as a paycheck.

mikedisd2

What with all the self-righteous responses in this thread? We're not discussing drug dealing or people smuggling (comparing this to selling contaminated pills?). Being the boy scout is all fine but is nothing to being unemployed without any prospects. Who would blindly choose a moral stand over the wellbeing of their family and house?

Despite what is being said here, doing this isn't selling your soul to the devil and does not forever stain you as a bad person with no integrity. And yes I resent this type of BS as much as anyone else.

Of course it's absolutely critical to make sure liability can't fall back on you and to be honest I have no idea what I would do in this situation. I sure wouldn't tolerate people telling me I forever have no integrity over it though.

za3bour

mikedisd2 wrote: »

What with all the self-righteous responses in this thread? We're not discussing drug dealing or people smuggling (comparing this to selling contaminated pills?). Being the boy scout is all fine but is nothing to being unemployed without any prospects. Who would blindly choose a moral stand over the wellbeing of their family and house?

Despite what is being said here, doing this isn't selling your soul to the devil and does not forever stain you as a bad person with no integrity. And yes I resent this type of BS as much as anyone else.

Of course it's absolutely critical to make sure liability can't fall back on you and to be honest I have no idea what I would do in this situation. I sure wouldn't tolerate people telling me I forever have no integrity over it though.

Thank you.