Education... at this point should I bother?

millworx

So I've been working professionally for 10 years, I start my Network Engineer IV job at Cisco in a week. When I am out if they chose not to renew the contract I will have almost 12 years experience. That will mean I will have almost 8 years of experience in Network Engineering, and 4 years of Systems / Network Administration.

Now I've only got a CCNA, and almost 2 semesters of college (no degree). Should I even bother going back to college? My lack of certs and a degree has never been a burden on me before in my job search as I have a proven record of success and knowledge.

I'm thinking about just forgetting about college and applying my efforts into getting the CCNP then CCIE. I might just skip the CCNP and go straight to CCIE R&S + CCIE Security considering the role I will be doing in my new job is designing and troubleshooting enterprise routing and switching environments, and working very heavily with ASA/PIX.

phantasm

First off I'm glad you got the job!!

Secondly I'm a big education guy, mostly because people told I was too dumb to ever earn my B.S. degree but I digress. Anyway, If you plan to stay in the tech side of the business then a B.S. may not be needed. However, if you decide to go for managment some day then a B.S. is almost required. In some organizations it would be an M.S. for managment.

With that said, do what you think is best for your situation. The CCNP or CCIE R&S is a good goal. If it were me I would do the CCNP but I don't have as much experience as you so that point is null and void.

Best of luck at Cisco and in your future endeavors.

eansdad

If it was anyone else I'd say you can't go wrong with a degree but seeing where you are at with what you have then I'd go the upper Cisco cert route. I'm going to go out on a limb and say if someone looking at your resume sees Network Admin 4 at Cisco then your going to get an interview.

Congrats again on the new job...

NinjaBoy

Why not go for both? You never know what the future holds

-ken

networker050184

I'm kind of in the same boat. I really don't know if it will be worth the time and effort from a strictly financial point of view, but I'd like to get my degree eventually. When time permits (if it ever does?) I'll get some classes lined up. Probably won't have anything to do with IT though. Maybe history.

snokerpoker

More education is never a bad thing. I would do both.

undomiel

Depends upon your reasoning for going back to college. It looks like it would be more for self-improvement rather than for career advancement. If you can do it without the student loans then I'd say sure why not.

Daniel333

Define education?

The return on formal education falls quickly after the age of 25. And currently in the USA the changing face of what education is, is also changing it's value. (but costs much less sometimes, community college, WGU)

Anyhow, if you are already an engineer for Cisco you should be going strong toward a CCIE. You have access to resources most of DREAM about. I've seen pix of tac LABS. Not saying it couldn't hurt to take a class a semester at the local community college. But considering anything higher end than that, probably won't pay itself off in your lifetime.

Working 5 years as a CCIE, you will make more money than some people will earn in a life time in the USA. Pull a 10 year career, invest wisely. Snatch up low cost properties. Establish a small real estate empire and you'll be set for life assuming you live humbly.

One final note, doing it for yourself is a good reason to consider school. Do YOU want to know calculus? Do YOU want to know Physics? Do you want the recognition of a institute? That is a great motive, capitalism aside.

sambuca69

You have 10 years of proven hands-on "education". Plus, you work for Cisco now... I don't think anyone will question what you know later on down the road.

millworx

Daniel333 wrote: »

Define education?

The return on formal education falls quickly after the age of 25. And currently in the USA the changing face of what education is, is also changing it's value. (but costs much less sometimes, community college, WGU)

Anyhow, if you are already an engineer for Cisco you should be going strong toward a CCIE. You have access to resources most of DREAM about. I've seen pix of tac LABS. Not saying it couldn't hurt to take a class a semester at the local community college. But considering anything higher end than that, probably won't pay itself off in your lifetime.

Working 5 years as a CCIE, you will make more money than some people will earn in a life time in the USA. Pull a 10 year career, invest wisely. Snatch up low cost properties. Establish a small real estate empire and you'll be set for life assuming you live humbly.

One final note, doing it for yourself is a good reason to consider school. Do YOU want to know calculus? Do YOU want to know Physics? Do you want the recognition of a institute? That is a great motive, capitalism aside.

Thanks for the insight Daniel, I gave this a lot of thought, I already know if I go back to college to wrap up a CS degree it will do me almost no good towards my career. After all I need no programming knowledge for my job, nor calculus or physics. And honestly I suck at math above Algebra. I was considering something along to the lines of WGU with the hope of maybe someday it would allow me to move from engineer to engineering management.

I live a very VERY humble life. Being homeless at one moment of my life for 6 months gave me a great appreciation for the simple things in life. I always read investment books, and money management books, one of my favorite books was "The millionaire next door" and that's what I aspire to. The guy with the simple house, the simple car, no debt, no loans. I don't need to impress anyone.

I've already walked through 3 Cisco campus labs, it is a dream come true. And while contracting I wont get the benefit of having my certs paid for me, I will have unlimited access to internal training and seminars. So I'm definitely going to aim for a Dual CCIE. Which both of my direct teammates possess.

Mike-Mike

I would say working at Cisco the CCIE would be a bigger deal than a degree

erpadmin

First of all, let me congratulate you again (I guess this time publicly instead of rep) for getting the Cisco gig.

I'm in a similar boat as you are, and my salary is nothing to cry about, but I have hit my glass ceiling. At some point in your career, you very well may as well. As well liked as I may be at my current employer, if it comes down to getting a promotion, all things being equal with another candidate, I'm going to lose because I don't have a BS. My performance reviews are excellent, but that's neither here nor there.

Point being, there may come a point in your career where a BS in necessary, especially if you want a supervisory role. Yes, you could find a job that may not require one, but it's getting rare. A BS gives you a better shot at one, and a Masters (if you ever want to go that route) can only help in that regard.

It's just something you want to personally consider if you want to break the glass ceiling. For now though, enjoy your new gig and soak up everything you can to stay there or move on to next gig. But try to factor in a degree at some point in your career.

Aldur

When looking back at my CSBS degree I really wonder how much value I received from it. It was necessary for me because having no experience at the time and trying to break into the IT field is tough to do. It also helped me when I took a job with Juniper that required me to move to Canada. The Canadian gov't would not have allowed me to get a work permit if I didn't have a BS in the field that I'd be working in. So in my situation it worked out quiet well. Although staring down the 40k in student loans I need to pay back is somewhat painful.

If I had the experience and the choice to starting/finishing a BS degree, I'd think twice about it, as I'm sure you are. I've never had an interview were my BS degree was pointed out, but every interview I've had my JNCIE(s) pointed out.

If your goal is strictly to learn and gain knowledge, then finishing your degree would be good. But I don't see much career advancement opportunity from it.

Pursuing high level certs, as others have mentioned, would be very beneficial IMO. There's nothing like great work experience combined with high level certifications.

N2IT

Daniel333 wrote: »

Define education?

The return on formal education falls quickly after the age of 25. And currently in the USA the changing face of what education is, is also changing it's value. (but costs much less sometimes, community college, WGU)

Anyhow, if you are already an engineer for Cisco you should be going strong toward a CCIE. You have access to resources most of DREAM about. I've seen pix of tac LABS. Not saying it couldn't hurt to take a class a semester at the local community college. But considering anything higher end than that, probably won't pay itself off in your lifetime.

Working 5 years as a CCIE, you will make more money than some people will earn in a life time in the USA. Pull a 10 year career, invest wisely. Snatch up low cost properties. Establish a small real estate empire and you'll be set for life assuming you live humbly.

One final note, doing it for yourself is a good reason to consider school. Do YOU want to know calculus? Do YOU want to know Physics? Do you want the recognition of a institute? That is a great motive, capitalism aside.

Awesome Post!

I personally think degrees are losing their value in Information Technology. Schools are popping up more and more. The wave of the on line movement of Universities has killed the value. If you are coming out of school, then I still think it's a great idea. Ship off to a brick and mortar and learn a degree that is specialized, you'll also learn life skills as well. Another example is ERPadmin's reasoning. He has a promotion waiting if he gets his. But if you are in your 30's or higher in a technical craft like networking or sys admin I wouldn't waste the coin. Go for the gold and get the platinum certs like CISSP, CCIE, etc. Of course if your employer is encouraging it and willing to pay and allocate some time for the studies, DO IT.

millworx

Aldur wrote: »

When looking back at my CSBS degree I really wonder how much value I received from it. It was necessary for me because having no experience at the time and trying to break into the IT field is tough to do. It also helped me when I took a job with Juniper that required me to move to Canada. The Canadian gov't would not have allowed me to get a work permit if I didn't have a BS in the field that I'd be working in. So in my situation it worked out quiet well. Although staring down the 40k in student loans I need to pay back is somewhat painful.

If I had the experience and the choice to starting/finishing a BS degree, I'd think twice about it, as I'm sure you are. I've never had an interview were my BS degree was pointed out, but every interview I've had my JNCIE(s) pointed out.

If your goal is strictly to learn and gain knowledge, then finishing your degree would be good. But I don't see much career advancement opportunity from it.

Pursuing high level certs, as others have mentioned, would be very beneficial IMO. There's nothing like great work experience combined with high level certifications.

Thanks for the input. I'm really starting to lean towards certifications at the moment. I may eventually complete my degree to allow me the opportunity to be in management, but that's a ways down the road. I do think it would be good for me to take advantage of my position and get the CCIE out of the way. I figure if I go for that and throw in a Juniper Cert like JNCIE I would be a pretty prime candidate for Sr Network Engineering positions.

Although I will admit other than the Netscreen OS I have almost no Juniper Experience. I have played around a bit with Olive, and it's not really that hard IMO, just a different syntax and commands.

Chris:/*

I disagree about a degree loosing its value, I personally see that the degree's purpose is better defined in other careers. In IT you can get a position and do work if you have experience and certifications that would normally require a degree.

Again a undergraduate degree gives you a broad brush of knowledge instead of a focused area. There will come a point in which you have to earn a degree for some lateral position. The experience of earning a degree has taught me a lot that I did not pick up in my years of experience preceding it.

N2IT

Chris:/* wrote: »

I disagree about a degree loosing its value, I personally see that the degree's purpose is better defined in other careers. In IT you can get a position and do work if you have experience and certifications that would normally require a degree.

Again a undergraduate degree gives you a broad brush of knowledge instead of a focused area. There will come a point in which you have to earn a degree for some lateral position. The experience of earning a degree has taught me a lot that I did not pick up in my years of experience preceding it.

IMO the people who are making a true difference are way too busy to sit around and chase paper. I think modeling after them would be the wise idea.

I have a BS and it's unlocked some doors, but most of what I have learned has been in the work place. In all honesty I think it comes down to the individual. I think you would be naive to think one way of thinking for all is the correct answer. You may find getting several degrees a great way to learn while others prefer certifications and yet others might learn on the job. It really comes down to the individual.

One other point I would like to make. Where you get your degree is almost as important if not more important than what you get your degree in. eMeS brought that to my attention a while back and I have to agree with that.

An engineering degree from Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, or MIT would crush 10 degrees from Kaplan or any for profit school. That is something to keep in mind too. I graduated from Missouri State with a Management degree. That's not going to wow a whole hell of a lot. lol

Cisco Inferno

i say of course get your ccnp->ccie... youre in cisco's hands now... youre like their little golden adopted child now. soak in that experience and take advantage of their training resources.

also, dont worry about computer science. i would suggest maybe part time, to work on a bachelors in IT Management then maybe masters. but then again thats your choice. it probably would be better in the future.

Chris:/*

N2IT wrote: »

An engineering degree from Georgia Tech, Virginia Tech, or MIT would crush 10 degrees from Kaplan or any for profit school. That is something to keep in mind too. I graduated from Missouri State with a Management degree. That's not going to wow a whole hell of a lot. lol

Where a degree is from only makes a difference for getting through the door not after you are already there. At that point it is what you make of your education. Chasing paper is what people do to fill check marks, people should look at doing degrees an certs as gaining knowledge.

It can be said that people can be very successful without a degree and there are many of examples of that. There are also many examples of people who cannot move forward anymore without a degree. I say prepare yourself as best you can for either situation.

rsutton

If you are planning on staying tech you will be fine, keep pursuing certs. If you think you ever want to get in to managerial positions you may then need a degree.

QHalo

I'm finishing my degree because in Chicago, it's a big deal or at least it seems like one. Lots of places won't touch you without one and the place I currently work at most likely docked me some pay because I didn't have one. I have almost 11 years now of IT experience and I want to break out into another larger company, and it's a sense of accomplishment in my life. In reality though, it's just an HR check box and to some companies, one that will mean the difference between getting in and not.

As for what the others said, you're at Cisco now. Take advantage. Cisco is a place you can retire from if you want to and you're already in the door. If anything the degree will just open up further opportunities inside. There's plenty of time to come back and get your degree. I've found finishing mine has been significantly easier later in life when I have more experience and can relate the information I'm learning to my everyday work life.

eansdad

This is turning into a "what is better" thread instead of a what about Millworx thread. Like I stated before a degree is never a waste BUT for Millworx going after the CCNP and CCIE will be of better value for him since he has already reached the promised land (working for Cisco). Since obtaining a degree wouldn't have as big as an effect on his future job prospects as a high end Cisco cert or two the obvious answer is to concentrate on the certs.

Look at it this way...Put yourself in Millworx shoes and think aout what you would do at that point.

Cisco Inferno

yea you reached the promise land. i would only work towards anything cisco at this point.

imagine you gain your ccnp and ccie... or even dual ccie at cisco. and it was much easier than someplace else or by your own because they pampered and trained you.

now imagine leaving cisco (sure hope you dont), someones gonna see on your resume, "CCIE" and "Network Engineer IV at Cisco Systems"! I think most network engineers would die for those two on their resumes. You're only halfway there.

once again congrats

ltgenspecific

What almost everyone else has said is good advice. Esp. the part about soaking in where you are and what you've just earned.

A side note: If you do become concerned about $$$, get a Masters in Project Management, etc. Cisco (and some of the other proprietary manufacturers) are infamous for paying talent well and doubling it for managers.

Grats on the job though!

Turgon

millworx wrote: »

So I've been working professionally for 10 years, I start my Network Engineer IV job at Cisco in a week. When I am out if they chose not to renew the contract I will have almost 12 years experience. That will mean I will have almost 8 years of experience in Network Engineering, and 4 years of Systems / Network Administration.

Now I've only got a CCNA, and almost 2 semesters of college (no degree). Should I even bother going back to college? My lack of certs and a degree has never been a burden on me before in my job search as I have a proven record of success and knowledge.

I'm thinking about just forgetting about college and applying my efforts into getting the CCNP then CCIE. I might just skip the CCNP and go straight to CCIE R&S + CCIE Security considering the role I will be doing in my new job is designing and troubleshooting enterprise routing and switching environments, and working very heavily with ASA/PIX.

I have two degrees and my wife is a Associate Professor in English. It's not just about landing jobs. The process of education is far more complex than simply attending classes, doing homework and sitting exams. It's about being educated and being around people in and out of class who are on the same path. Some people leave University with rather uninspiring grades but they have still received an education that broadens their horizons in life. Education and certification are different. I advocate that everyone trys to get the best education they can because a more educated population has to be a good thing, not only for the individual but also society at large.

Turgon

millworx wrote: »

Thanks for the insight Daniel, I gave this a lot of thought, I already know if I go back to college to wrap up a CS degree it will do me almost no good towards my career. After all I need no programming knowledge for my job, nor calculus or physics. And honestly I suck at math above Algebra. I was considering something along to the lines of WGU with the hope of maybe someday it would allow me to move from engineer to engineering management.

I live a very VERY humble life. Being homeless at one moment of my life for 6 months gave me a great appreciation for the simple things in life. I always read investment books, and money management books, one of my favorite books was "The millionaire next door" and that's what I aspire to. The guy with the simple house, the simple car, no debt, no loans. I don't need to impress anyone.

I've already walked through 3 Cisco campus labs, it is a dream come true. And while contracting I wont get the benefit of having my certs paid for me, I will have unlimited access to internal training and seminars. So I'm definitely going to aim for a Dual CCIE. Which both of my direct teammates possess.

A good place to aim for at Cisco is Advanced Services. Be aware that Cisco offer lots of internal resources to prepare for the lab exam and three paid shots to clear it. So you have a lot going for you there. At the same time, if you intend to do it get it done because if after two years at Cisco you haven't made CCIE you are regarded as low hanging fruit. At least that's what someone told me who worked for Advanced Services.

Turgon

millworx wrote: »

Thanks for the input. I'm really starting to lean towards certifications at the moment. I may eventually complete my degree to allow me the opportunity to be in management, but that's a ways down the road. I do think it would be good for me to take advantage of my position and get the CCIE out of the way. I figure if I go for that and throw in a Juniper Cert like JNCIE I would be a pretty prime candidate for Sr Network Engineering positions.

Although I will admit other than the Netscreen OS I have almost no Juniper Experience. I have played around a bit with Olive, and it's not really that hard IMO, just a different syntax and commands.

I think you should make your ambitions known to Cisco straight off. They expect engineers to become certified. At the same time try to avoid the trap of getting hung up on the cert track once you start this new job. I would advise you back off on the hours you spend on certs for three months and concentrate solely on knuckling down on the job you are handed. Spend any free time evenings and weekends on work related stuff. You want your first pieces of work to pass through smoothly and you want to be demonstrating to your peers and boss that you are picking things up. Getting all that right will demand 100% focus. Once you have earned a few stripes then approach the boss in 3 months time and get a study schedule agreed.

ccie15672

Also keep in mind there is somewhat of a de-emphasis on CCIE right now, Cisco is *really* pushing their folks to get the CCDE. Or so I hear. Grain of salt, grapevines and all that.

People at Cisco did say they envisioned a CCDE working with 5-7 implementation CCIEs guiding them. I've heard first hand a Cisco person actually say that "anyone can get a CCIE."

Which is total crap of course.

Turgon

ccie15672 wrote: »

Also keep in mind there is somewhat of a de-emphasis on CCIE right now, Cisco is *really* pushing their folks to get the CCDE. Or so I hear. Grain of salt, grapevines and all that.

People at Cisco did say they envisioned a CCDE working with 5-7 implementation CCIEs guiding them. I've heard first hand a Cisco person actually say that "anyone can get a CCIE."

Which is total crap of course.

Almost anyone can get a CCIE if they **** Derek. There is also the CCIE world of those who work for Cisco, and the CCIE world of those who dont. They are different. Most of the world's CCIE's are Cisco employees. There is a reason.

videguy

Your background and certifications are great. However you will have a tough time breaking in without a BS. I finish mine next month, I should have finished it 20 years ago. I look forward to the day that I can say yes when they ask if I have a degree.
More and more employers are requiring them for even the lowest level jobs.
I've never heard anyone say I regret getting that degree.

aldous

Turg's right about Advanced Services its an awesome team i joined as part of the graduate program 2010 spending 4 months in Brussels (on the same floor as the CCIE lab!)training before being rotated into the NCE position.

I would say from what i've picked up at Cisco that CCIE is everything yo would be surprised the amount of people that are CCIE (for example managers/account execs etc) and you get three paid shots (and i think you can push for more if your close/job demands it). Also other certs you do will be paid for so you can work your way to IE (with your experience you'll probably breeze through NP)

That being said its always good to continue education even if its for educations sake. i was all set to go to a masters degree untill i got offered the job and will be taking one part time alongside my work even though the CCIE i will hopefully pass this year will be worth way more