Night Shift...Weekends... how do you feel about it?

JohnnyBiggles

One thing I've come to understand is that a lot of network/IT jobs are done during non-production hours and days. My ideal job is 9-5 or somewhere close to it but I have some concerns that you seasoned folks might be able to shed some light on:

What is the consensus of NOC/admin-type jobs out there: Just how common is it to actually do daytime NOC/admin/support work vs. non-peak hours? How many of you folks here who are already working actually work at night? If you do, does it suck that you work during the opposite times most people work/live? Are you happy with it? How do you deal? [I claim to be "nocturnal", which is probably limited to about 2-3am, but my goal right now is to live a more "normal" lifestyle... I guess that of a M-F, 9-5er.] Is the nighttime differential pay worthwhile?

I used to work in IT a long time ago (well, I still sort of do at my other part-time job, but it is not OFFICIALLY an IT job) and took for granted that situation at that time. It was 9-5 (flexible, but min. was 40 hrs.), I had basic benefits, paid holidays, vacations, etc. Weekends flew by too quick & somehow I never got much done anyway or so it seemed. The big catch was that the pay sucked... and it was that that made me leave there to go elsewhere which ultimately turned disastrous, forcing me to exit IT life and leaving me continuously struggling (and debating if I should or not) to get back in, now more so than ever (horrible timing with economic catastrophes ).

My current main job (non-IT) is busiest on weekends and I work 6-7 days on that job while the other consumes the rest of my time during the weekdays... I miss the hell out of weekends and would love to get home at a decent hour during the week so I can get SOME things done and live like "normal people" do: actual occasional relaxation (not crashes), dating, preparing/cooking dinner, beach weekends, house chores, hanging out with friends, other recreational and necessary maintenance/advancement tasks, etc. I kind of envy my former self in the aforementioned capacities because although it seemed to suck then, it would be awesome now that I'm older and wiser and more appreciative, just, hopefully, with a better salary so that I can actually partake in these "normal people" activities comfortably and not like a cheap-ass I was once forced to be. Not that I would go nuts with better money now, I just would not accept a pay-shaft like I did and know how to better place my hard earned money (it was actually supposed to be a foot-in-the-door job, which it certainly was - I learned the most there but had to move on because there was no growth after a certain point). I just don't know if I would accept a night job or something with mandatory weekends because of this position I'm in... but the way things are now it might be worthwhile and even necessary to at least give it thought.

Thoughts on this?

pham0329

how do I feel about it? It SUCKS!!!

Once you get up to any sort of "admin" position in I.T, off-hour support comes with the job. Since 4 jobs ago, I've been carrying around 2 cell phones wherever I go, 1 personal, 1 for work. However, outside of planned maintenance or weekend deployments, I've never really had a call on my work cell in the off-hours or had any emergencies where I had to drive back in.

Usually, there's an on-call rotation so you probably wouldn't be on-call every weekend unless you're the only IT person there. Like I said above, unless you have a really crappy network or a really big one, you're unlikely to get called in on the weekends.

JohnnyBiggles

pham0329 wrote: »

how do I feel about it? It SUCKS!!!

Once you get up to any sort of "admin" position in I.T, off-hour support comes with the job. Since 4 jobs ago, I've been carrying around 2 cell phones wherever I go, 1 personal, 1 for work. However, outside of planned maintenance or weekend deployments, I've never really had a call on my work cell in the off-hours or had any emergencies where I had to drive back in.

Usually, there's an on-call rotation so you probably wouldn't be on-call every weekend unless you're the only IT person there. Like I said above, unless you have a really crappy network or a really big one, you're unlikely to get called in on the weekends.

Does the pay make up for it at least?

demonfurbie

i prefer it

you get soo much more done on a network with less users on it

also usally the dress code is just make sure your wearing pants, rarely anyone breathing down your neck about a "huge issue" aka why is farmville slow. and during down time you can do school work ... or at least i do

the_Grinch

I recently switched to nights (no pay increase, but I work four 10 hour shifts, 8pm to 6 am) and I am liking it. I work Monday thru Thursday (technically Friday morning) and then have the whole weekend to myself. I don't get calls on my days off, other then if I can cover a shift when the weekend guy calls out. Lots of advantages to working at night: no one calls (I get more calls my my bosses checking in, then from any customers), usually not a ton of work to do (when it rains, it pours though), and who can argue with a three day weekend every weekend? My job is pretty simple: respond to NOC alerts (down circuits, failed drives, filling drives, etc), open support tickets that come in via phone/email, and monitor backups. I also perform the night time server work such as reboots, software installs, antivirus deployments, etc.

I will say there are some disadvantages. I switched with the engineer who use to be on this shift and have more technical knowledged then he had. With that switch, they decided to put more on at night (not a terrible thing), but I feel they take advantage. You'll find out quickly how terrible notes are in tickets as they lack information you need to complete your work. Also, often people are exact with what they want done so something doesn't get done or isn't done as expected because you have no one to contact with questions. The final thing is people tend to forget the procedure when it comes to night time people. We have a system where a hand off is sent each night listing outages, failed backups, and work needing to be done at night. On top of that, if work needs to be completed they are suppose to send me an email and place a ticket on my board. Twice thus far tickets haven't been created and emails not sent. So far I have caught it, reviewing the report, but I did contact my various managers to let them know. Not great to be held responisible when details are overlooked.

Overall, I like the nights as it is more chill and most nights I can study (though not recently). Little difficult being off hours, but you get use to it. Plus I am young and everything I do happens late night on weekends

Forsaken_GA

I don't mind working nights so much as I mind working overnights. My sleep schedule just gets all screwed up. Weekends only bother me during football season. I prefer working 2nd shift (which is what I work) because I get to maintain something resembling a normal sleep schedule, and my commute doesn't hit much traffic going in the same direction that I am (and when you live in the Atlanta burbs, but work in/near the city, that's a big deal)

JohnnyBiggles

the_Grinch wrote: »

I recently switched to nights (no pay increase, but I work four 10 hour shifts, 8pm to 6 am) and I am liking it. I work Monday thru Thursday (technically Friday morning) and then have the whole weekend to myself. I don't get calls on my days off, other then if I can cover a shift when the weekend guy calls out. Lots of advantages to working at night: no one calls (I get more calls my my bosses checking in, then from any customers), usually not a ton of work to do (when it rains, it pours though), and who can argue with a three day weekend every weekend? My job is pretty simple: respond to NOC alerts (down circuits, failed drives, filling drives, etc), open support tickets that come in via phone/email, and monitor backups. I also perform the night time server work such as reboots, software installs, antivirus deployments, etc.

I will say there are some disadvantages. I switched with the engineer who use to be on this shift and have more technical knowledged then he had. With that switch, they decided to put more on at night (not a terrible thing), but I feel they take advantage. You'll find out quickly how terrible notes are in tickets as they lack information you need to complete your work. Also, often people are exact with what they want done so something doesn't get done or isn't done as expected because you have no one to contact with questions. The final thing is people tend to forget the procedure when it comes to night time people. We have a system where a hand off is sent each night listing outages, failed backups, and work needing to be done at night. On top of that, if work needs to be completed they are suppose to send me an email and place a ticket on my board. Twice thus far tickets haven't been created and emails not sent. So far I have caught it, reviewing the report, but I did contact my various managers to let them know. Not great to be held responisible when details are overlooked.

Overall, I like the nights as it is more chill and most nights I can study (though not recently). Little difficult being off hours, but you get use to it. Plus I am young and everything I do happens late night on weekends

Are you able to enjoy a normal weekend? In other words, because 4 days a week you work at night, shouldn't your weekday sleep habits affect how your weekend goes too? I mean, I would be afraid my body would try to shut down at a peak hour or something during the weekend when all the fun takes place! I work kinda late (as late as 10:30-11pm on friday and saturday) but going out I have no problem falling asleep at a bar or club (loud music and all)...lol. I go out on probably my 3rd wind and usually make it through enough to sleep it off Sunday but unlike in my younger days when I could enjoy a buzz from a drink or two, I'd sooner pass out...more from fatigue but of course it doesn't appear that way...LOL. I guess working a long day is probably worse for hanging out late than working nights since you're used to being up. You'd probably outlast everyone else and end up designated driver...lol.

JohnnyBiggles

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

I don't mind working nights so much as I mind working overnights. My sleep schedule just gets all screwed up. Weekends only bother me during football season. I prefer working 2nd shift (which is what I work) because I get to maintain something resembling a normal sleep schedule, and my commute doesn't hit much traffic going in the same direction that I am (and when you live in the Atlanta burbs, but work in/near the city, that's a big deal)

I can relate a bit on this since I started working from 8-4... then it became 10-6 and occasionally 11-7. It worked out and I didn't get flack for it because they understood my argument quickly and the jobs got done. I only needed to clarify what time I was coming in so they could plan around it when necessary. It was beautiful since traffic was light going in and leaving, the bulk of the time overlapped with the rest of the team so we could work things out, and since from 3pm on when everyone else started going home, I could use 5 computers instead of one to get projects done with the cherry on top being peace and quiet while the computers did most of the work. I was occasionally envious of people going home much earlier but I dread the idea of coming in so early as I'm not really a morning person and I hate traffic with a passion!

the_Grinch

Really depends on what you do on the weekend. Normally, nothing is happening for me until after 4 pm. I normally sleep till 4 or 5 PM (was getting up at 3 PM for awhile, but I stopped that for now) so I am ok. If I have earlier plans on Saturday (hasn't happen yet) I could go home Friday morning and not go to bed until say 9 pm or so. Might suck staying up, but an energy drink or two should do the trick. For the most part, I get less sleep on nights then I did during the day. I make adjustments as needed and for the more part it works out. The real trick is getting back on the night schedule after making those adjustments. Say I get up early Saturday morning, now I have to stay up late into early Sunday so I don't wake up too early on Monday. The time I save on my commute and the amount of freetime at night more then make up for the schedule.

nel

i hated it. Got in the way of my personal life so much. i would prefer not go go that route again. Although i do have to carry out alot of work out of hours, which i dont get paid for, just Lieu time. Great experience though so i know its the best thing to do.

phantasm

In my experience the NOC guys work shift work while the Engineers work a standard work week.

CodeBlox

At my job, the NOC works 4 ten hour days. It's all day too. I would rather work in the day. Currently I work 8:30 - 5 and I like the schedule. Traffic really sucks though.

Forsaken_GA

phantasm wrote: »

In my experience the NOC guys work shift work while the Engineers work a standard work week.

It all depends. Our engineers tend to have diverse schedules, since alot of our work can't be done during first shift. Which is another reason I volunteer for 2nd. I normally can't start any maintenances before 9pm EST, so I could work first shift, then have to come back for the maint, or I can do it as part of my regular workload. The peace and quiet of only having to endure people in the office for a couple of hours is pretty nice too.

-DeXteR-

Well we have three shifts per day . And we are entitled to do certain number of Night shifts a month . I guess it's the same with everyone , if you dream of working in networking domain you are expected to do night shifts !!

MrAgent

I wish I could find a weekend shift in addition to my normal 9-5 job. I get plenty of calls from recruiters, then they tell me its for regular working hours.

Everyone

It's called scripting. A long time ago I learned to script out all the tasks that would need to be done after hours, so that I could work regular day time hours.

Devilry

I think it would be extremely difficult with a family, but for a single guy: probably a decent gig.

TLeTourneau

Everyone wrote: »

It's called scripting. A long time ago I learned to script out all the tasks that would need to be done after hours, so that I could work regular day time hours.

Scripting is nice but sometimes you want or need "butts in the seats". We average about 100 servers a day for patching and need 24/7 staffing to ensure everything is OK.

To the OP: I do 2nd shift (3:00 to midnight) and I like it. My weekends are Monday/Tuesday but that's OK.

Mike-Mike

JohnnyBiggles wrote: »

My current main job (non-IT) is busiest on weekends and I work 6-7 days on that job while the other consumes the rest of my time during the weekdays...

So you aren't currently in an IT role? Is that by choice?

Everyone

TLeTourneau wrote: »

Scripting is nice but sometimes you want or need "butts in the seats". We average about 100 servers a day for patching and need 24/7 staffing to ensure everything is OK.

To the OP: I do 2nd shift (3:00 to midnight) and I like it. My weekends are Monday/Tuesday but that's OK.

No you don't, you're doing it wrong. The only shop that needs to be 24/7 is the Help Desk or whatever you call your equivelent (NOC Technicians if that's what you have going on). Your server team(s) can work regular business hours, with an on call rotation. If something goes wrong after hours, the lower level support that is there 24/7 pages the on call person from the appropriate team. The only exception here would be for hardware maintenance, then whoever is responsible for the hardware will of course need to work after hours.

I'm patching 33 Exchange 2003 servers, most of them geographically separated cluster pairs, 7 OCS 2007 R2 servers, and 15 Blackberry Enterprise Servers (I'm on the Enterprise Messaging team), this weekend. All of it completely automated with PowerShell scripts that I wrote. These servers support over 70,000 users worldwide. 99% of the users will have no idea anything went down for maintenance, the 1% that does will only have a short blip for a cluster failover. As soon as we get migrated to 2010, no one will ever notice at all.

I've set this up in many different types of environments over the past few years and never had a single call for something going wrong, but the process is always in place for that "just in case" it ever does.

Don't tell your boss there's no need to have so many people working all these after hours shifts though, you might lose your job.

TLeTourneau

Everyone wrote: »

No you don't, you're doing it wrong...<SNIP>

No, we are not doing it wrong, we're doing it differently. We are patching thousands of servers every month. Our downtime doesn't just cost in $ but can also adversely affect peoples life's, we do not take chances. We are staffed 24/7 and have an on-call rotation, hardware R&R is done on all three shifts.

Forsaken_GA

Everyone wrote: »

No you don't, you're doing it wrong. The only shop that needs to be 24/7 is the Help Desk or whatever you call your equivelent (NOC Technicians if that's what you have going on). Your server team(s) can work regular business hours, with an on call rotation. If something goes wrong after hours, the lower level support that is there 24/7 pages the on call person from the appropriate team. The only exception here would be for hardware maintenance, then whoever is responsible for the hardware will of course need to work after hours.

That may work alright for server patching, but not all of it can scripted, and sometimes you need people on site to handle it.

You also really don't want to automate your network maintenance. You want that done by an awake and aware human being, because if something is wrong, it can have a drastic impact on your entire business. You don't necessarily have to be on site unless you have other reasons for doing so (for us, for example, due to our security policy, very few people have datacenter access, so we're pretty much mandated to be on-site in case something goes wrong).

I agree with your general premise, however. Good system administrators are lazy and find ways to automate repetitive work, instead of just continuing to bang their head against a wall. The trick is in knowing what's low enough risk to automate, and what's worthy of your personal attention.

Dakinggamer87

I use to work nights/weekends and it wasn't bad but I prefer my weekday schedule so I can enjoy my weekends!!

JohnnyBiggles

Mike-Mike wrote: »

So you aren't currently in an IT role? Is that by choice?

Choice? Well, not exactly...

I work part-time at a school so I'm off from the "IT" job (not really actual IT, though) for a few more weeks and my other job is certainly not IT, it's in the service sector. I've had some bad luck the last several years and I'm trying to get back to where I once was professionally. Well, beyond that actually, since I wasn't in a prime spot then either.. I was just a much better candidate for advancement with all the experience I picked up, I just didn't have much paperwork to back it up back then... those were the glory days when you were hired fairly easily and didn't need to be a PhD to work at a damn call center for 10 bucks an hour like it is nowadays. Unfortunately, I didn't have my Bachelor's then so that may have been why, despite my experience, it was so difficult to excel a bit elsewhere. I did manage to get a better paying job after searching for over a year, but it SUPER-sucked for 5 painful months and I quit 3 days before waking up to a gaping hole in WTC-1 on my TV screen... then the big IT "hiatus" came for me.

BUT, every time I make an advancement, almost like clockwork it seems, some catastrophic uncontrollable event occurs at the same time that jams up my career progress (ie: freed myself from the crappy job with even more experience - then 9/11 happens along with its follow-up economic downturn; college graduation - then the economic meltdown in '07/'08; now the credit downgrade/"double dip"/global recession poses the newest threat JUST IN TIME for me to complete my CCNA ...and frankly, we've never really completely recovered from the dot-com's & 9/11's economic busts overall). In fact, Cisco itself laid off 734695873629 people about 3 days before I took & passed my CCENT exam. How encouraging . God forbid I should ever go for the CCIE... earth might explode

So, now that I've got a few letters after my name & documented proof I'm capable of doing actual IT work (my only fear now is that my experience is kind of old), getting back into the IT environment is harder than ever, so I'm trying to get a feel for just how many more steps sideways or backwards I'll need to take to get something decent enough to re-stabilize, lead SOME kind of normal lifestyle, and maybe.. just MAYBE.. actually ADVANCE with a career in this crazy economy without going crazy first. I need to finally live a little now cuz surviving SUX. It is time.

Mike-Mike

With your degree and cert list I found it odd you would be working outside of IT. I took a massive pay cut to get into IT at the helpdesk level, but I feel it will pay off at some point.

Danny boy

Well I thought I had avoided this. When I accepted this job I was told it was a 9-5 with weekend work only in the case of the odd emergencies which I was happy to agree with. The job itself is great experience wise but is very stressful as we have far too much to do at the moment and I have important non IT roles to do as well but I was coping just about with it.

Two weeks ago I was told that we would have on call weekend working, in return for an extra day's pay which I reluctantly agreed with. The idea being that we would only deal with very urgent issues and it would be done remotely from home. I was assured that most likely my first on call weekend I probably wouldn't even have any calls. So I thought I would be okay.

Until I experienced the hell of today and most likely tomorrow as well. I was called first thing in the morning and tried to resolve a site down issue over the phone but was unable to do so. Despite not being in the on call agreement I was pressured by the onsite management into attending the site. Was able to solve the internet connection problem but was unable to resolve another one there as well.

I spoke to my manager on the phone about this and went through it with him, who advised me that we couldn't resolve the issue and to leave it until Monday. I then had the staff at the site shouting in my face and practically threatening me because of this. Also insisting that I and my colleagues should be on call 7 days a week ready to attend the site from 6AM in the morning. I explained to them that these things were completely beyond my control but they still had none of it.

They insisted that I should be answering the phone from 6AM tomorrow morning and be ready to attend the site - this is after having worked a very stressful Monday-Friday (+Saturday) this week as well. The idea of working 12 days in a row for 11 days pay seems completely unacceptable to me. I have been an utter miserable bastard to my poor girlfriend and mum today just because I am so furious at being put in this position.

At the moment I am so angry and upset that I'm on the verge of quitting my job, if anybody could provide me with some guidance that would be really appreciated. I realise I am completely emotional and irrational at the moment so my apologies for the rant.

jamesleecoleman

Don't quit your job just because people are mad that you are doing what you're supposed to do. Seriously, they need to chill out. It looks like they're trying to get away with more than they are allowed. Such as pressuring you to come onsite when you're supposed to take care of problems remotely. Everything that they've done to you sounds like harassment and I suggest that you talk to your manager about the harassment. You don't want them to possibly push you over the edge and for you to possibly make a major mistake because you're upset. They should be happy that you even went on site to help them out. From what I've read, it looks like you went above your jobs duties to get the jobs done. If those staff members are unhappy then forget them. Just do what you're supposed to do.

Danny boy

Thanks Jamesleecoleman for your advice. Now that I've calmed down a bit what you suggested seems sensible. I will take it up with my manager on Monday and fingers crossed won't happen again.

Forsaken_GA

Danny boy wrote: »

I then had the staff at the site shouting in my face and practically threatening me because of this. Also insisting that I and my colleagues should be on call 7 days a week ready to attend the site from 6AM in the morning. I explained to them that these things were completely beyond my control but they still had none of it.

They insisted that I should be answering the phone from 6AM tomorrow morning and be ready to attend the site

Unless they actually hold some kind of authority over you, politely thank them for their viewpoint and explain to them that any complaints should be registered with your manager. If they keep ranting at you and it's a phone call, hang up. If it's in person, walk away.

One of my favorite things to do to quiet them down is to stop them mid-rant, inform them that I will be recording the conversation for my own protection, and then actually start doing so. That tends to sober up angry folks really quick.

Anonymouse

I worked graveyard at my last job, the only weekend day I worked was Sunday night. That sorta sucked but I at least enjoyed my Saturdays.

Turgon

Danny boy wrote: »

Well I thought I had avoided this. When I accepted this job I was told it was a 9-5 with weekend work only in the case of the odd emergencies which I was happy to agree with. The job itself is great experience wise but is very stressful as we have far too much to do at the moment and I have important non IT roles to do as well but I was coping just about with it.

Two weeks ago I was told that we would have on call weekend working, in return for an extra day's pay which I reluctantly agreed with. The idea being that we would only deal with very urgent issues and it would be done remotely from home. I was assured that most likely my first on call weekend I probably wouldn't even have any calls. So I thought I would be okay.

Until I experienced the hell of today and most likely tomorrow as well. I was called first thing in the morning and tried to resolve a site down issue over the phone but was unable to do so. Despite not being in the on call agreement I was pressured by the onsite management into attending the site. Was able to solve the internet connection problem but was unable to resolve another one there as well.

I spoke to my manager on the phone about this and went through it with him, who advised me that we couldn't resolve the issue and to leave it until Monday. I then had the staff at the site shouting in my face and practically threatening me because of this. Also insisting that I and my colleagues should be on call 7 days a week ready to attend the site from 6AM in the morning. I explained to them that these things were completely beyond my control but they still had none of it.

They insisted that I should be answering the phone from 6AM tomorrow morning and be ready to attend the site - this is after having worked a very stressful Monday-Friday (+Saturday) this week as well. The idea of working 12 days in a row for 11 days pay seems completely unacceptable to me. I have been an utter miserable bastard to my poor girlfriend and mum today just because I am so furious at being put in this position.

At the moment I am so angry and upset that I'm on the verge of quitting my job, if anybody could provide me with some guidance that would be really appreciated. I realise I am completely emotional and irrational at the moment so my apologies for the rant.

Sounds like bad culture to me and you cant change that. You have agreed to do the on call weekend work so you either continue to do it or approach your line manager and explain you need to do a U turn. You can do that on the grounds that the people you are dealing with are unreasonable. You can do that on the grounds that as you put it, working 11 days out of 12 isn't realistic for you on a personal level. In fact you can actually do it for both reasons.

In terms of complaints from end users you would do well to take the advice of referring anyone being really difficult to your line manager. I should caution you that you must have an upfront conversation about doing this with him first before you start resorting to this when the need arises. Otherwise the complaints from unreasonable people will become a regular occurance and your boss will likely assume you are simply being difficult and want to have 'a chat with you'. If people are unreasonable stay polite and ask them to escalate to your line manager. If people are obnoxious on the phone refer to the line manager and hang up.

When people insist this or that, they cannot insist that *you* do this or that. It is an expectation that a customer has on the *company* you work for and it may be outside whatever SLA they have signed up to. It is a matter for the company to resolve with the client so point the customer fairly and squarely at your boss and have them take the matter up with him. It's his job to deal with all that.

As I say, this could be bad culture so it may be time to look for another job. I had one such experience about 8 years ago and while I didn't have people shouting at me like you have and demanding 24/7, the company I worked for simply had too many problems to solve, inept management structures, and no prospect of doing anything different going forwards, so it was a mess. After hammering myself for 3 months working long hours trying to hold the shambles together I decided it was pointless. So I left and worked as a contract network designer on much better money for the largest ISP in the country for 4.5 years. My previous employer folded inside 18 months.

Postscript. If you dont speak to your boss expect every weekend to be like this for as long as you work for this company.