CCNA Wireless: When (if ever) will companies start moving away from ethernet?

YuckTheFankees

I'm trying to get "ahead" of the curve...will companies move away from ethernet to wireless any time soon? I think they might so I'm thinking about getting CCNA: wireless all the way up to CCIE: wireless.

I'm new to the network game, so I'm looking for anybody and everybodies opinions. Thanks

hiddenknight821

Never. Can't have wireless without the Ethernet.

themagicone

Never... There is no security in wireless. Yes I know there is WPA/WEP/ETC but those can be cracked with the right know how and time. Also wireless doesn't provide the reliability and speed needed on a full time basis. Not to say wireless isn't good to know, it just will be second to Ethernet.

chrisone

hiddenknight821 wrote: »

Never. Can't have wireless without the Ethernet.

LOL !!!!!!

TLeTourneau

Not to mention the whole dedicated vs shared bandwidth thing. Ethernet wins on that alone for now.

WafflesAndRootbeer

YuckTheFankees wrote: »

I'm trying to get "ahead" of the curve...will companies move away from ethernet to wireless any time soon? I think they might so I'm thinking about getting CCNA: wireless all the way up to CCIE: wireless.

I'm new to the network game, so I'm looking for anybody and everybodies opinions. Thanks

They won't. Some companies will increase or begin to implement wireless to support those damned tablets that everyone wants to play Angry Birds on during meetings, but by and large, Enterprise wireless is a niche thing. I would expect to see the more sensible companies adopting 3G/4G tablets or whatever the heck we're gonna be using in three years because it's easier to implement than Enterprise WiFi and a bit more secure, but I suspect there will be companies who simply buy whatever consumer-grade tablet is cheapest or is coveted by those management folks who make uninformed decisions so they can install a generic WiFi network for largely personal use.

chrisone

how about Ethernet 10gb throughput vs 802.11n 600mb? Can you EtherChannel AP's for more throughput?

Lets not forget you have more than 25 hosts on a single AP and your voice & data take a hit in quality performance and signal range.

higherho

themagicone wrote: »

Never... There is no security in wireless. Yes I know there is WPA/WEP/ETC but those can be cracked with the right know how and time. Also wireless doesn't provide the reliability and speed needed on a full time basis. Not to say wireless isn't good to know, it just will be second to Ethernet.

In some cases companies wireless is more secure than their wired setup. I agree with you on the reliability hence the fact its a connectionless protocol.

As for the main poster. Wireless will always be a secondary / backup situation for most companies. But its not to say you should not learn it. Wireless can improve cell phone coverage in your given area (if you have the correct hardware / setup) and wireless is all over the place. I think if you got a CCIE wireless and a CCNP in R/S you would be better off than most people who just have a CCNP in R/S.


The bandwidth is also not there. Although, for users its more than enough but you will never see a backbone network run off a wireless protocol (unless its stable 10 gig).

EDIT

Never mind on my above statement. Apparently there are wireless backbones with that high of a capacity out their.

Bl8ckr0uter

themagicone wrote: »

Never... There is no security in wireless. Yes I know there is WPA/WEP/ETC but those can be cracked with the right know how and time. Also wireless doesn't provide the reliability and speed needed on a full time basis. Not to say wireless isn't good to know, it just will be second to Ethernet.

I totally disagree with the first point. Not to say the wireless security = wired security but there are some wireless networks with better security than wired ones.

There are a few companies that have wireless branch offices/backbones. There are many small companies who only run off of a linksys router and a firewall (ftw!). I think it will probably happen some day but not for quite a few years.

Oh and I think there are only 30 CCIE:W's in the world, the test is a beast!

higherho wrote: »

The bandwidth is also not there. Although, for users its more than enough but you will never see a backbone network run off a wireless protocol (unless its stable 10 gig).

They are out there. I know of at least 1 company where the backbone was a satellite link.

higherho

chrisone wrote: »

Lets not forget you have more than 25 hosts on a single AP and your voice & data take a hit in quality performance and signal range.

Well lets hope the wireless engineer does a survey first and properly installs correct AP's in busy areas and get full coverage. For example:

Cisco Aironet 1140 Series - Products & Services - Cisco Systems

those Access points are only good for single floor design and typically 20 users per AP. Now if you had these:

Amazon.com: Cisco Aironet 1252AG - Wireless access point - 2 / 2 - 802.11 a/b/g/n (draft 2.0) 802.11A/G/N-D 2.02.4/5GHZ MOD UNIFIED AP 6 RP-TNC Manufacturer Part Number AIR-LAP1252AG-A-K9: Office Products

These are built for more users on a single AP and wider coverage. Not to mention that 3 of the antennas are 5ghz range and the others are 2.4 ghz. This can open up a slew of options in terms of segregation, etc.


I'm not saying wireless is replacing wired. I just wanted to comment on your user statement.

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

I totally disagree with the first point. Not to say the wireless security = wired security but there are some wireless networks with better security than wired ones.

I agree and the options you have for wireless security are mind boggling.

There are a few companies that have wireless branch offices/backbones. There are many small companies who only run off of a linksys router and a firewall (ftw!). I think it will probably happen some day but not for quite a few years.

Oh and I think there are only 30 CCIE:W's in the world, the test is a beast!





They are out there. I know of at least 1 company where the backbone was a satellite link.

I did not know this. Thanks for pointing it out I was only helping out implement AP's across our campus so I was not to well educated on wireless backbones. I guess I should have made my statement differently. Again thanks

Bl8ckr0uter

higherho wrote: »

By far and the options you have for wireless security is mind boggling.

This is so true. Have you seen this? PacketFence: Open Source NAC (Network Access Control) It is a free NAC solution that works with free radius FreeRADIUS: The world's most popular RADIUS Server and SNORT. I plan to deploy it in my house one of these days.

higherho wrote: »

I did not know this. Thanks for pointing it out I was only helping out implement AP's across our campus so I was not to well educated on wireless backbones. I guess I should have made my statement differently. Again thanks

I wouldn't quite call it stable though. OMG when it rained or when cows jump up in the path (don't ask) the amount of errors on the circuits....

To the OP have you looked at CWNA and CWSP (since I know you are into security)? They may have more pull for you in a non cisco shop.
https://www.cwnp.com/certifications/cwna
https://www.cwnp.com/certifications/cwsp

chrisone

Your main security options with NAC are Radius and 802.1x technologies. The security features are great!

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

This is so true. Have you seen this? PacketFence: Open Source NAC (Network Access Control) It is a free NAC solution that works with free radius FreeRADIUS: The world's most popular RADIUS Server and SNORT. I plan to deploy it in my house on of these days.

I plan on using this for my CCNP Secure Lab studies as well! I still need to get a tacacs server for my CCNA security studies, but i think i am just going to take the test without that lab portion, the exam doesnt go that deep on it, plus there are only a few commands to worry about in the IOS. But however i need something to test the 802.1x technologies in the CCNP Secure exam.

it_consultant

From a consulting perspective, I get questions about this almost on a weekly basis. People are trying to get unwired. All major phone systems now support wireless clients, which is fantastic. What they are not prepared for is how much it will cost. Try selling a $700 access point to people who are used to seeing them for $80 at Best Buy.

I have deployed thousands of Aironets and people heart the hell out of them because they are so reliable and quick enough for most applications. I also sell Meraki units which I find superior. I don't have any specific training but after knocking around in it for a while I have gotten sharp on the different kind of antennae, wireless controllers, mesh routing etc.

Honestly, I am not sure if a CCIE in wireless is useful. The science in wireless is incredibly simple, lack coverage, more access points with better antennae. What is most important is securing with RADIUS and IPSec and intelligently explaining the difference in security between WPA2 (enterprise or personal) and doing whole payload encryption with IPsec. Other than the key exchange protocols, this is exactly the same as on a wired network.

People want wireless and they want it secured, big market you can tap.

YuckTheFankees

Thanks to everyone, this is becoming a great thread.

I have looked into CWNA and CWSP, are there any other certs out there for wireless networking? IT_CONSULTANT may be right (CCIE: wireless being worthless), I dont know if CISCO will be king for wireless...so should I stay away from the CCIE: wireless route?

Bl8ckr0uter

YuckTheFankees wrote: »

Thanks to everyone, this is becoming a great thread.

I have looked into CWNA and CWSP, are there any other certs out there for wireless networking? IT_CONSULTANT may be right (CCIE: wireless being worthless), I dont know if CISCO will be king for wireless...so should I stay away from the CCIE: wireless route?

I don't think a CCIE:W would be worthless and I don't think wireless is that simple especially when you start to talk about spectrum analysis and VoWIFI, roaming, WIDS and etc. I don't think he meant it that way. At least not for complex enterprises it. There are a lot of places where it could be said that simply adding more aps will fix the issue but that isn't always the case.

There are other vendor certs, I think aruba has some, so does aerohive (a guy here has one of their certs). There is a SAN GAWN and Offensive Security's OWSP. I think the CWNP certs are going to be the most worthwhile (as far as name recognition).

NOC-Ninja

CWNP's and Cisco's are the only popular certs for wireless out there. CCIE-wireless is very tough. Only 30 plus are CCIE-wireless.

Get an AP, WLC, WCS and start labbing. You will also need a switch, routers, ACS and vowifi.

Cisco is tough to beat. Look at HP right now. Its going down. lol

it_consultant

YuckTheFankees wrote: »

Thanks to everyone, this is becoming a great thread.

I have looked into CWNA and CWSP, are there any other certs out there for wireless networking? IT_CONSULTANT may be right (CCIE: wireless being worthless), I dont know if CISCO will be king for wireless...so should I stay away from the CCIE: wireless route?

A CCIE in ANYTHING is going to be very valuable to you and open a lot of doors. People will ignore anything after CCIE sort of like they basically ignore everything after CCNP. I hope I didn't leave the impression that CCIE: Wireless is worthless. I don't think you need one in order to advance your career though. Maybe CWNP is a more logical route.

NOC-Ninja

There's more into ccie wireless than just wireless. You need to understand that you will have to understand and connect all the dots to wireless. Check out the blueprint to understand what I'm trying to say.

chrisone

CCIE Wireless is not worthless by any means! Great sin to make such a statement! lol

CCIE Wireless involves many topics and complexities. LOL at this information below being worthless!

https://learningnetwork.cisco.com/docs/DOC-11621

YuckTheFankees

Sorry for saying "worthless", that was too strong of a word. What I was trying to say is maybe a vender specific cert is not for me. But I really don't know, Ill have to do some more research. Thanks for the input everyone.

docrice

I sort of regret studying for the CCNA: Wireless ... it felt like an advertisement for Cisco products and I didn't learn much about 802.11 technology in general. That said, I already knew most of the 802.1X stuff that was covered so I had a head start.

If I had to do it over again, I'd go for the CWNP and CWSP. I probably would have learned way more. I've also seen more Aruba deployments than Cisco, but it's not like I've surveyed a ton of businesses.

SteveO86

docrice wrote: »

I sort of regret studying for the CCNA: Wireless ... it felt like an advertisement for Cisco products and I didn't learn much about 802.11 technology in general.

I agree with you a 100% on that. I even left a comment like that on a few of my exam questions for CCNA: W

(Also don't take that as me saying the CCIE: W is useless, merely the CCNA: W is not very technically challenging.)

The CWNP certs are much more worth while if you you are going for knowledge in the 802.11 field. You might want to consider CWNE. CWNP has expanded their professorial level beyond the CWSP (See the CWDP and CWAP)


Also follow you passion if you are interested in wireless then follow wireless, if it's not then follow something else.

Since other people also commented on the WLAN Security I won't add to that.. 802.1X with the right EAP extension & WPA2-Enterprise can be very secure, (give a read through the CWSP book it's awesome).

(Of course wireless is inherently insecure since eavesdropping can never be fully deterred, but the best thing you can do is give encrypted data )

higherho

from what I was told the CCNA wireless just shows you the basics. My friend who Is the wireless engineer for my campus is taking his CCNP wireless and he stated that its ALOT harder than the CCNA wireless because it's more in depth.

it_consultant

docrice wrote: »

I sort of regret studying for the CCNA: Wireless ... it felt like an advertisement for Cisco products and I didn't learn much about 802.11 technology in general. That said, I already knew most of the 802.1X stuff that was covered so I had a head start.

If I had to do it over again, I'd go for the CWNP and CWSP. I probably would have learned way more. I've also seen more Aruba deployments than Cisco, but it's not like I've surveyed a ton of businesses.

Cisco is a tough sell against Aruba and Meraki because even though Aruba and Meraki APs can reach the $1000 mark a piece quickly, the controller costs are much much less. Having said that, I heart the aironet line.

From this thread I have decided to do the CWNA cert because I do a lot of wireless stuff and never bothered to get certified in it. My books should arrive tomorrow.

seansd

It generally sneaks in. Many don't realize it is available unless they happen to look up in a meeting room and see an AP hanging upside-down from ceiling. Problems are generic home-type APs hidden inside computer cases.

Lizano

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

when cows jump up in the path (don't ask)

dude, I cant avoid it, I cant just read that and not ask...

chrisone

Nice choice, i think either path will workout, cisco wireless certs or CWNP certs. I might get the entry level certs CCNA W and CWNA some time in the future. Right now my passion is security and penetration testing. I dont feel like my career goals nor my interests for wireless run CWNP or CCNP Wireless deep. Having the CWNA and CCNA Wireless are enough wireless for my taste buds lol

Bl8ckr0uter

Lizano wrote: »

dude, I cant avoid it, I cant just read that and not ask...

The network was between some farm land in Texas and Mexico. Manufacturing was in Mexico but Design was in Texas. They weren't too far apart but putting down fiber would be extremely expensive and politically difficult. So wireless was the choice. I don't know all the details but there were some hills of some sort and sometimes things would get in the way, (cattle being one of the things). I didn't really believe it up until I saw millions of errors on a cisco controller. Millions. Of. Errors. In one day.

That's not even the craziest thing I saw/heard about/dealt with. Some douche took down a wan link but (wait for it) shooting up the fiber with his shotgun(s). Notice the "s" at the end of shotgun.

chrisone wrote: »

Nice choice, i think either path will workout, cisco wireless certs or CWNP certs. I might get the entry level certs CCNA W and CWNA some time in the future. Right now my passion is security and penetration testing.

CWSP could help make you a bad ass pentester. Have you looked at GAWN? The objectives look pretty awesome.

http://www.giac.org/certification/assessing-auditing-wireless-networks-gawn

It's more than 802.11. I mean imagine owning someones ipad and accessing a citrix client with stored passwords via bluetooth?

YuckTheFankees

My main career goal is to get into security/ pentesting and having my niche in wireless. I opened a thread in the security area asking what I should learn next since I have a decent background in networking. I asked if I should learn html,css, javascript, C, python perl, ASM, the list goes on and on. And the advice I am getting the most is to become an expert in one area besides pentesting (EX. programming, networking, blah, blah)..which I'm thinking about chossing wireless as my area of expertise. So thats what I am shooting for now. I'm looking forward to taking GAWN,GPEN, and OSCP in the future.

chrisone

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

The network was between some farm land in Texas and Mexico. Manufacturing was in Mexico but Design was in Texas. They weren't too far apart but putting down fiber would be extremely expensive and politically difficult. So wireless was the choice. I don't know all the details but there were some hills of some sort and sometimes things would get in the way, (cattle being one of the things). I didn't really believe it up until I saw millions of errors on a cisco controller. Millions. Of. Errors. In one day.

That's not even the craziest thing I saw/heard about/dealt with. Some douche took down a wan link but (wait for it) shooting up the fiber with his shotgun(s). Notice the "s" at the end of shotgun.



CWSP could help make you a bad ass pentester. Have you looked at GAWN? The objectives look pretty awesome.

Information Security Certification - GIAC

It's more than 802.11. I mean imagine owning someones ipad and accessing a citrix client with stored passwords via bluetooth?

Thanks for the tip, But CWSP would only help me in pentest if i were to be a wireless pen tester. I dont plan on going that route either.

Yuckthefankees, i think the OSCP would cover many of the other topics you mentioned that one would need for pentesting. I heard it was a hard test and you need to really focus on many topics. Anyways I want to study CEH v7 as well, but i dont think i will care about taking the exam. I do not see the return on investment for the price of this exam now. After studying the CEH i will read a lot of books on pentesting for the oscp test. Probably spend like 8 to 12 months just studying pen testing and getting ready for the exam.

I want to take my time since i am getting burned out with the CCNP Security track lol i still need to finish that first before i go into pentesting.

YuckTheFankees

Oh I definitely understand about getting burnt out. I'm probably going to start my path towards wireless(while still studying pentesting on the side)..gain experience and hopefully in 5 years or so..move into some sort of wireless pentesting role. I just dont know how far into networking I should go if I dont plan on doing wireless my whole career (but I guess the extra knowledge wouldnt hurt at all)...would CCIE/ CWNE be too much?