Academia vs "the real world"

UnixGuy

I believe most of the members are here working in "the real world" (i.e. IT industry) and not in academia.

So what do you guys think of working in academia? would you go for a PhD ( 6+ yrs degree in the US) and teach at a reputable university of you get a chance to?

In terms of money, do University Proffs make more money in the long run ? In terms of challenge/fun/job satisfaction, which field is more interesting?

ptilsen

IT professionals with high-level certs, 5-10 years of experience, and a Bachelor's or less can, should, and do hit six figures. Teaching, even at big state university, probably does not pay as much on average as working in the real industry.

I could see a lot fulfillment from teaching, but I can't imagine doing just that. I don't see how someone can effectively teach anything in this industry but CompSci without plenty of recent, relevant real-world experience.

So no, I probably would not get a doctorate just to go teach. But I would get a Master's degree and teach part-time.

erpadmin

That's one of the reasons I am going to graduate school, so that I can be an adjunct professor like a lot of my colleagues.

I am seeing that it is currently difficult to obtain a Ph.D while still working in the "real world." You have to dedicate AT LEAST a year to research and not to mention being published. There is at least one school that I would consider obtaining a doctorate from, and that's Dakota State. You earn a D.Sc and it could land one a full-time professorship at a school down the road when I "retire" from public service. I wouldn't even mind landing a full-time gig at one of the online colleges, but I would still want to earn my 25 years in public service so I can retire with medical. (10-11 years left for me to do that. ) A lot of other schools like Colorado Technical offer a Ph.D but I see no evidence that a doctorate from there or other for-profit schools would be honored at a B&M to teach.

BTW, if anyone here wanted to teach things that are relevant in the IT industry, you're not limited to Comp Sci. IT professionals have to know business, project management, and anything else that's relevant to Information Systems or Business Information Systems. Programming/Operation Systems theory aren't the only kids on the block anymore. Doing hard drive swaps, PC reimages, etc., also isn't going to cut it for IT professionals down the line.

Bl8ckr0uter

Many 2 year schools don't require PhDs to teach. You can teach with a MS.

At any rate, I could not imagine doing a PhD in IT. I see that as a those who can do and those who can't teach type of situation. I have been taught by PhDs and I can tell you that many of them don't know anything about IT at all plus if you don't make tenure then you can forget about making any "real" money. Of course those who would want to teach probably aren't doing it for the money. I am thinking about doing CCSI at the end of next year but not because I have a deep desire to teach. I just want another stream of income. I could help my local college do their Cisco classes.

UnixGuy

ptilsen wrote: »

IT professionals with high-level certs, 5-10 years of experience, and a Bachelor's or less can, should, and do hit six figures. Teaching, even at big state university, probably does not pay as much on average as working in the real industry.

I could see a lot fulfillment from teaching, but I can't imagine doing just that. I don't see how someone can effectively teach anything in this industry but CompSci without plenty of recent, relevant real-world experience.

So no, I probably would not get a doctorate just to go teach. But I would get a Master's degree and teach part-time.

This is a big misconception that I myself had up until very recently!

Having a PhD and working doesn't mean that you teach, teaching is just part of the job. You will have to continuously do research. PhD is all about research, so this is a continuous process and it's very fulfilling. You will also be going to a lot of scientific conference to keep up with the changing trends of scientific research, you will be mentoring and working in projects with grad students. It's not just teaching.

PhD also gives you the chance to work in research labs, that's another good career.

UnixGuy

erpadmin wrote: »

That's one of the reasons I am going to graduate school, so that I can be an adjunct professor like a lot of my colleagues.

...

How do they work as adjunct professors? You mean they work full time in normal jobs, and part time in teaching? I'd be interested in this

UnixGuy

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

Many 2 year schools don't require PhDs to teach. You can teach with a MS.

At any rate, I could not imagine doing a PhD in IT. I see that as a those who can do and those who can't teach type of situation. I have been taught by PhDs and I can tell you that many of them don't know anything about IT at all plus if you don't make tenure then you can forget about making any "real" money. Of course those who would want to teach probably aren't doing it for the money. I am thinking about doing CCSI at the end of next year but not because I have a deep desire to teach. I just want another stream of income. I could help my local college do their Cisco classes.

I think there's a lot of truth in what you said. There's a gap between the IT industry and academia. Those who work in academia rarely knows anything about the industry, and vice versa. The PhD that taught you and me don't ideally have practical experience, but they have significant research and theoretical experience, I think that's where certs come into the picture to fill this gap. a networking class at the university will teach you the OSI model, but a CCNA will teach you how to configure a switch. IT training is a nice option too if you get a good offer.

Slowhand

I'm planning on continuing in academia after I progress through school, I'd love to teach and possibly do some research. I'm studying electrical engineering & computer science (EECS) right now, with a little bit of attention on mechanical engineering as well, but I'm probably going to dive into physics or applied mathematics for my graduate-degree. After about ten years in IT now, plus the few more years I plan to work in order to fund college, I think I'll I've had just about enough of this "real world" stuff. I'll be very happy if I can blow stuff up. . . I mean, "do research" for a living.

Whether the pay is higher or lower, I have no idea. That's something I'm going to have to find out for myself. I do know that I will probably feel a bit more fulfilled. I love working in IT, and this is a career that's been good to me, but it's not "what I wanted to do when I grew up". I've wanted to work in physics/engineering for a while, that's always been the siren-song for me.

NinjaBoy

It's a bit different for me, I'm a full time IT Manager in the IT field. However I am also a part-time lecturer at one of the largest Universities in the UK (the Open University) and before that I was a part-time college lecturer for 3 years.

I do have to say that working in the "real world" does give an added edge when it comes to teaching, as you can give real world example of problems and different solutions without reading or working from a "script" or from theory. And vice versa, the knowledge gained from teaching helps in the real world.

It shouldn't be "vs", imo they compliment each other.

BTW, I don't have a Phd or my Masters, however I am looking at doing that soon (finances permitted). I do have quite alot of professional certifications, a BSc (as well as working towards my "second" degree level qualification, a Graduateship diploma) and a basic teaching qualification (the PTLLS and the MCT).

UnixGuy

Slowhand wrote: »

I'm planning on continuing in academia after I progress through school, I'd love to teach and possibly do some research. I'm studying electrical engineering & computer science (EECS) right now, with a little bit of attention on mechanical engineering as well, but I'm probably going to dive into physics or applied mathematics for my graduate-degree. After about ten years in IT now, plus the few more years I plan to work in order to fund college, I think I'll I've had just about enough of this "real world" stuff. I'll be very happy if I can blow stuff up. . . I mean, "do research" for a living.

Whether the pay is higher or lower, I have no idea. That's something I'm going to have to find out for myself. I do know that I will probably feel a bit more fulfilled. I love working in IT, and this is a career that's been good to me, but it's not "what I wanted to do when I grew up". I've wanted to work in physics/engineering for a while, that's always been the siren-song for me.

I did Computer Engineering (pretty much EECS) for undergrad, and it is much more fun than the "real world" to be honest, even though it is really more difficult than the regular IT stuff. Are you doing it full time or part time? I'd like to do full time PhD but money will be a problem for me at the moment. I'm a part time research assistant now, so I get to do some fun stuff

UnixGuy

NinjaBoy wrote: »

It's a bit different for me, I'm a full time IT Manager in the IT field. However I am also a part-time lecturer at one of the largest Universities in the UK (the Open University) and before that I was a part-time college lecturer for 3 years.

I do have to say that working in the "real world" does give an added edge when it comes to teaching, as you can give real world example of problems and different solutions without reading or working from a "script" or from theory. And vice versa, the knowledge gained from teaching helps in the real world.

It shouldn't be "vs", imo they compliment each other.

BTW, I don't have a Phd or my Masters, however I am looking at doing that soon (finances permitted). I do have quite alot of professional certifications, a BSc (as well as working towards my "second" degree level qualification, a Graduateship diploma) and a basic teaching qualification (the PTLLS and the MCT).

Good point. The best instructors are those with real hands-on experience.

Haven't you considered doing a part-time PhD in the UK? it's research based, so you can do it while working full time(no classes needed).

NinjaBoy

UnixGuy wrote: »

Good point. The best instructors are those with real hands-on experience.

Haven't you considered doing a part-time PhD in the UK? it's research based, so you can do it while working full time(no classes needed).

Not yet, anyway. Was thinking about a funded Phd student place, however with a young family, financially it would not be possible.

However I just got my line manager's approval for my first module for my Masters (so that will be funded). E-mailed this morning and got the answer this morning

UnixGuy

NinjaBoy wrote: »

Not yet, anyway. Was thinking about a funded Phd student place, however with a young family, financially it would not be possible.

However I just got my line manager's approval for my first module for my Masters (so that will be funded). E-mailed this morning and got the answer this morning

congrats

funded PhD is obtainable, you will get some sort of fund anyway, but with family it is difficult, you will live have to live with less money. I'm in the same boat, that's why I'm thinking Part time PhD is the best option.

What masters are you doing? which uni? if I may ask

GAngel

Unless you plan on teaching at a college getting a job in a university without getting a phd from a top ranked school "full time" the odds of becoming a professor are some of the lowest in any field. The over supply of PHDs is massive and unless you're constantly publishing stuff that can attract major funding all I can say is good luck.

Odds are you'll end up doing research for less than if you'd just gone the IT "real world" route. I say this with 2 masters and finishing my third in a year then off to do a doctorate. I've no plans to be in academia and they could never pay me what i'm earning privately.

cxzar20

I once considered going that path too. Make sure you do your research because the job prospects to get a tenure position are not very good:

100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

tpatt100

My "goal" eventually when I get older is to teach at a community college. I don't have dreams of being in a big university but would prefer CC because I think I would have a bigger impact on students especially working adults teaching night classes. I feel teaching would have a positive impact on me because seeing aspiring students would motivate me to keep current on technology.

Everyone

UnixGuy wrote: »

How do they work as adjunct professors? You mean they work full time in normal jobs, and part time in teaching? I'd be interested in this

Yes... A friend of mine does this, he's not in IT, and not a PhD either. He's an MBA, and a manager of a local Walgreens. He also teaches a class in the evenings 1 or 2 nights a week at the college he got his MBA from. Can't remember what the class is that he teaches though.

erpadmin

UnixGuy wrote: »

How do they work as adjunct professors? You mean they work full time in normal jobs, and part time in teaching? I'd be interested in this

Exactly. An adjunct professor is another way of saying part-time professor. You make like $2k-$4k a course a semester.

It's beer money, for sure, but the benefits far outweigh the pay. It counts as experience if one were ever wishing to go a full-time route in academia (especially if down the road you want to pursue a doctorate, as one of the components is teaching.)

erpadmin

GAngel wrote: »

Unless you plan on teaching at a college getting a job in a university without getting a phd from a top ranked school "full time" the odds of becoming a professor are some of the lowest in any field. The over supply of PHDs is massive and unless you're constantly publishing stuff that can attract major funding all I can say is good luck.

Odds are you'll end up doing research for less than if you'd just gone the IT "real world" route. I say this with 2 masters and finishing my third in a year then off to do a doctorate. I've no plans to be in academia and they could never pay me what i'm earning privately.

As with anything and everything else....it's all about who you know.

NinjaBoy

UnixGuy wrote: »

...What masters are you doing? which uni? if I may ask

I'll be doing it with the Open University. As the studying is modular, I'm aiming for the Postgraduate Certificate in Computing. This will lead to the following Masters:

Computing for Commerce and Industry

Management of Software Projects

Software Development

Depending on what modules are deemed to contribute to my professional development (so work will pay for it) or those modules that I can afford will dictate which one I end up with.

veritas_libertas

cxzar20 wrote: »

I once considered going that path too. Make sure you do your research because the job prospects to get a tenure position are not very good:

100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

Ouch. Talk about being slapped across the face with reality.

UnixGuy

GAngel wrote: »

Unless you plan on teaching at a college getting a job in a university without getting a phd from a top ranked school "full time" the odds of becoming a professor are some of the lowest in any field. The over supply of PHDs is massive and unless you're constantly publishing stuff that can attract major funding all I can say is good luck.

Odds are you'll end up doing research for less than if you'd just gone the IT "real world" route. I say this with 2 masters and finishing my third in a year then off to do a doctorate. I've no plans to be in academia and they could never pay me what i'm earning privately.

Good points. So what did the masters degree add to your career? and what's your plans for the PhD ? Are you going full time or part time? How do you think the PhD is going to help you?

UnixGuy

cxzar20 wrote: »

I once considered going that path too. Make sure you do your research because the job prospects to get a tenure position are not very good:

100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

Interesting points in the link, I actually went and read most of them. While there's truth in what he claim, the same arguments can be made about the "real world" too. We've witnessed here on this forum many people quitting IT because the system is 'unfair'. People invest time, money and effort getting certified all while working 8-5 jobs, and yet they still have hard time because the competition is fierce and the economy is bad. I really understand that the IT job market is tough, but I don't expect academia to be forgiving either.

UnixGuy

NinjaBoy wrote: »

I'll be doing it with the Open University. As the studying is modular, I'm aiming for the Postgraduate Certificate in Computing. This will lead to the following Masters:

Computing for Commerce and Industry

Management of Software Projects

Software Development

Depending on what modules are deemed to contribute to my professional development (so work will pay for it) or those modules that I can afford will dictate which one I end up with.

Sounds like a good plan, good luck

erpadmin

UnixGuy wrote: »

Interesting points in the link, I actually went and read most of them. While there's truth in what he claim, the same arguments can be made about the "real world" too. We've witnessed here on this forum many people quitting IT because the system is 'unfair'. People invest time, money and effort getting certified all while working 8-5 jobs, and yet they still have hard time because the competition is fierce and the economy is bad. I really understand that the IT job market is tough, but I don't expect academia to be forgiving either.

I have an actual friend (my old fraternity advisor) who would complain about life in academia. He's a Ph.D washout (that story in itself is a very long one) but he is an adjunct at the place where he (still) advises the fraternity and is a professor at our state's flagship (Rutgers) with just a Master's in English. He's been doing it for well over 20 years.

There is a huge amount of politics involved with academia, just like elsewhere. Between that and having to find time to get published (which is a big part of why he washed out and is discussed in that blog that's in this thread), he's just satisfied with doing what he's doing.

Couple that with the fact (according to him) that even with a Ph.D you have to be open to going to some other part of the country you'd want no business being in JUST to find a tenure-track position.

I'm not trying to make myself that crazy...I'd be perfectly fine with doing non-tenure tracks/adjuncting at a couple of places.

I'm also betting on the fact that by the time I want to pursue a doctorate, Dakota State University won't be the only cheaper option to earn a doctorate in the field I want through distance learning. (Though I don't object to doing a small residency/in-person dissertation defense.) The options that are currently available are either too expensive, offered at for-profits, or just require taking off from work for too long a time. Writing that book (or two) isn't even that bad, as there are a lot of options one can do for copy-editing.

But breaking into academia with a MS is doable. Just like with anything else, it's all about knowing the right people.

demonfurbie

now ive done some teaching and ive found that for time work its not near as much pay or satisfaction you would expect.

ive found a nice balance for me is teaching at a 2 year school and/or teaching cert classes at one. Right now im getting ready to setup a sec+ class over 2 weeks at night, the extra income is nice and you never know when it can turn into a full time job.

you may ask your local testing center if they are looking for teachers to teach a cert class, kinda get your feet wet see if you even like teaching

Slowhand

UnixGuy wrote: »

I did Computer Engineering (pretty much EECS) for undergrad, and it is much more fun than the "real world" to be honest, even though it is really more difficult than the regular IT stuff. Are you doing it full time or part time? I'd like to do full time PhD but money will be a problem for me at the moment. I'm a part time research assistant now, so I get to do some fun stuff

I'm doing school full-time, I've got a ways to go as an undergrad before I can make the jump to being under-appreciated and over-worked, (to become a grad-student.) For now, though, I'm enjoying the academic life. The real irony is, I'll probably end up teaching IT-related courses at one of the local community-colleges in the area after I finally apply for an Associate's from my old school, since that, (along with six years+ industry experience,) is what they look for to teach networking and sysadmin type of classes.

cxzar20 wrote: »

100 Reasons NOT to Go to Graduate School

I don't know, this list really just strikes me as the usual, "I didn't get much out of school so you won't either" kind of rants. The points are valid, but the reality is that everyone should know these things before going into a graduate program and still be willing to do it. A lot of the entries on the list are just "it's really hard" type of complaints, and the "your degree won't get you anywhere but possibly a job teaching" comments are a little bit trite and more than a bit cynical. Honestly, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the same song and dance I see from people who spend four or five years partying at a state school only to take a B.A. in some humanities subject they don't care about, then are bitter because it doesn't open all the doors they were expecting it would.

At the end of the day, your academic journey is like every other endeavor in life: you get as much out of it as you are willing to put into it. . . and doing it for the wrong reasons - like thinking you're going to get rich - will almost always leave you disappointed and jaded.

the_Grinch

Funny that this thread has popped up as I am heading to academia. Got lucky and was hired by my college to work in IT Support with the added bonus that I can complete my Masters/PhD for free (free being relative since due to the tax code, I have to claim the graduate education as income for Federal taxes). One big advantage is it just so happens that my college is #3 on Newsweeks Top 20 Graduate Schools for Information Systems. I am also considering doing two Masters prior to going for the PhD. One would be in Information Systems and the other in Science, Technology, and Society. Why STS you might ask? STS covers the history and social impact of Science/Technology, with a focus on public policy. Seems a lot of companies (in my opinion) are soon going to want to understand the impact of their technology and as we already know they lobby for public policy in their various technologies. Once I have those completed (at the very least, I will complete the MSIS) then it will be onto the part time PhD program. This will allow me to continue to work and while it will take longer, I will not rack up any debt in the process. Of course, this all hinges on me being accepted. I don't doubt that I will be accepted for the Masters (I was actually accepted to a Masters program shortly after graduating, but due to lack of funding I could not start), but the PhD acceptance is a whole different animal.

I got a chance to speak with one of my professors extensively on the subject of teaching and level of education. As others have said, a Masters will allow you to teach pretty much anywhere. A lot of schools have moved to using people with Masters degrees as teaching faculty. As teaching faculty, you aren't expected to publish (they'd like you too, but it usually isn't written into the contract) and you will solely teach. That being said, full time teaching positions with a Masters will be harder to come by. Most schools now really want their PhD's doing research, publishing, and writing grants. You'll do your 12 hours a week of teaching, but the rest of the time you will focus on those other tasks. The more you publish/bring in grants, the better your chances of making tenure.

I am always interested in people opinions on IT/IS professors and their sometimes lack of real world knowledge. While I can understand wanting the step by step on setting something up, if you get the right foundation, you should be able to learn the new technology when it comes out. The basics tend not to change too drastically so if you have them down, then jumping to a vendor specific setup should be a small one. Also, I think most colleges attempt to not vendor lock you. How can one justify teaching Cisco and not Juniper? Or vice versa? That is my opinion of course...

Ultimately, I look at teaching/research as an escape to the everyday IT world. How long can you continue to deal with end users and their issues? How awesome might it be to be on the forefront of a new technology that no one has done before? Or how often have you had found a fix that the vendor hasn't? Recently, I read an article that spoke about how DARPA was basically giving cash away to small companies/researchers to work on various security issues. The big companies don't see profit in it, but for small teams/companies/researchers it offers a good amount of cash and a chance to work on serious problems others refuse to try. Darpa’s New ‘Fast Track’ Okays Hacker Projects in Just Seven Days | Danger Room | Wired.com

UnixGuy

erpadmin wrote: »

I have an actual friend (my old fraternity advisor) who would complain about life in academia. He's a Ph.D washout (that story in itself is a very long one) but he is an adjunct at the place where he (still) advises the fraternity and is a professor at our state's flagship (Rutgers) with just a Master's in English. He's been doing it for well over 20 years.

There is a huge amount of politics involved with academia, just like elsewhere. Between that and having to find time to get published (which is a big part of why he washed out and is discussed in that blog that's in this thread), he's just satisfied with doing what he's doing.

Couple that with the fact (according to him) that even with a Ph.D you have to be open to going to some other part of the country you'd want no business being in JUST to find a tenure-track position.

I'm not trying to make myself that crazy...I'd be perfectly fine with doing non-tenure tracks/adjuncting at a couple of places.

I'm also betting on the fact that by the time I want to pursue a doctorate, Dakota State University won't be the only cheaper option to earn a doctorate in the field I want through distance learning. (Though I don't object to doing a small residency/in-person dissertation defense.) The options that are currently available are either too expensive, offered at for-profits, or just require taking off from work for too long a time. Writing that book (or two) isn't even that bad, as there are a lot of options one can do for copy-editing.

But breaking into academia with a MS is doable. Just like with anything else, it's all about knowing the right people.

I definitely agree with all your points here, good luck with your conquest. Do you mind having a doctorate from a non US university? There are cheaper options in UK, Australia, South Africa and Malaysia. It's not distance learning, but a dissertation-only PhD, where you need to agree with a faculty member on how the research will be conducted. Usually you will need certain visits to the campus, but you don't have to relocate. Those universities are B&M university with regional accreditation and some with a world class high ranking.

UnixGuy

demonfurbie wrote: »

now ive done some teaching and ive found that for time work its not near as much pay or satisfaction you would expect.

ive found a nice balance for me is teaching at a 2 year school and/or teaching cert classes at one. Right now im getting ready to setup a sec+ class over 2 weeks at night, the extra income is nice and you never know when it can turn into a full time job.

you may ask your local testing center if they are looking for teachers to teach a cert class, kinda get your feet wet see if you even like teaching

Honestly speaking, I'm more interested in the research aspect of the job rather than the teaching aspect. I'm a certified SUN instructor, and I occasionally train our customer on UNIX (beginner to advanced, featuring Solaris). It's an ok fun, but my real intention would be cutting-edge research, and original contribution to knowledge.

UnixGuy

Slowhand wrote: »

I don't know, this list really just strikes me as the usual, "I didn't get much out of school so you won't either" kind of rants. The points are valid, but the reality is that everyone should know these things before going into a graduate program and still be willing to do it. A lot of the entries on the list are just "it's really hard" type of complaints, and the "your degree won't get you anywhere but possibly a job teaching" comments are a little bit trite and more than a bit cynical. Honestly, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the same song and dance I see from people who spend four or five years partying at a state school only to take a B.A. in some humanities subject they don't care about, then are bitter because it doesn't open all the doors they were expecting it would.

At the end of the day, your academic journey is like every other endeavor in life: you get as much out of it as you are willing to put into it. . . and doing it for the wrong reasons - like thinking you're going to get rich - will almost always leave you disappointed and jaded.

I agree. Also, I think everything mentioned in the "100 reason why NOT to go to grad school" applies to almost any other job. "It's stressful", "it's hard", "it's unfair", "brutal job", "politics"...this is just everywhere. The author of that blog needs some real world experience...