Academia vs "the real world"

UnixGuy

the_Grinch wrote: »

Funny that this thread has popped up as I am heading to academia. Got lucky and was hired by my college to work in IT Support with the added bonus that I can complete my Masters/PhD for free (free being relative since due to the tax code, I have to claim the graduate education as income for Federal taxes). One big advantage is it just so happens that my college is #3 on Newsweeks Top 20 Graduate Schools for Information Systems. I am also considering doing two Masters prior to going for the PhD. One would be in Information Systems and the other in Science, Technology, and Society. Why STS you might ask? STS covers the history and social impact of Science/Technology, with a focus on public policy. Seems a lot of companies (in my opinion) are soon going to want to understand the impact of their technology and as we already know they lobby for public policy in their various technologies. Once I have those completed (at the very least, I will complete the MSIS) then it will be onto the part time PhD program. This will allow me to continue to work and while it will take longer, I will not rack up any debt in the process. Of course, this all hinges on me being accepted. I don't doubt that I will be accepted for the Masters (I was actually accepted to a Masters program shortly after graduating, but due to lack of funding I could not start), but the PhD acceptance is a whole different animal.

I got a chance to speak with one of my professors extensively on the subject of teaching and level of education. As others have said, a Masters will allow you to teach pretty much anywhere. A lot of schools have moved to using people with Masters degrees as teaching faculty. As teaching faculty, you aren't expected to publish (they'd like you too, but it usually isn't written into the contract) and you will solely teach. That being said, full time teaching positions with a Masters will be harder to come by. Most schools now really want their PhD's doing research, publishing, and writing grants. You'll do your 12 hours a week of teaching, but the rest of the time you will focus on those other tasks. The more you publish/bring in grants, the better your chances of making tenure.

I am always interested in people opinions on IT/IS professors and their sometimes lack of real world knowledge. While I can understand wanting the step by step on setting something up, if you get the right foundation, you should be able to learn the new technology when it comes out. The basics tend not to change too drastically so if you have them down, then jumping to a vendor specific setup should be a small one. Also, I think most colleges attempt to not vendor lock you. How can one justify teaching Cisco and not Juniper? Or vice versa? That is my opinion of course...

Ultimately, I look at teaching/research as an escape to the everyday IT world. How long can you continue to deal with end users and their issues? How awesome might it be to be on the forefront of a new technology that no one has done before? Or how often have you had found a fix that the vendor hasn't? Recently, I read an article that spoke about how DARPA was basically giving cash away to small companies/researchers to work on various security issues. The big companies don't see profit in it, but for small teams/companies/researchers it offers a good amount of cash and a chance to work on serious problems others refuse to try. Darpa’s New ‘Fast Track’ Okays Hacker Projects in Just Seven Days | Danger Room | Wired.com

Lucky you! now I'm very jealous will you be working in Princeton by any chance?


As for the 2 x masters degree, I have a different point of view. It's interesting to learn about STS, but for that *I think* a full-fledged degree isn't required, you can just take additional classes (in STS) while you do your PhD, that might be sufficient and it will save you enormous time since the PhD alone might take 5+ yrs. You can always do research on STS as well.

I agree that universities shouldn't teach vendor specific classes. However, I think a prof with real world experience would do a better job in teaching theory.

Good luck!

the_Grinch

LOL nah, I'm not quite Princeton material! Real world experience is always nice and I think for the most part most professors have it, but in varying degrees. I know a lot of my professors would consult on the side since a lot of times that was really the only way they could stay real world. Philosophically, we could all ask whether we have real world experience.....lol

UnixGuy

the_Grinch wrote: »

LOL nah, I'm not quite Princeton material! Real world experience is always nice and I think for the most part most professors have it, but in varying degrees. I know a lot of my professors would consult on the side since a lot of times that was really the only way they could stay real world. Philosophically, we could all ask whether we have real world experience.....lol

even if it's not Princeton, I'm still jealous

ohh, check this out:
Computer Science and Philosophy - Computer Science at OxfordHow interesting is this!!

the_Grinch

That is awesome! I wish they have something like this at the graduate level in the US. I was going to go for a BA in Philosophy, but after speaking with one of my professors it just made more sense to go onto the Masters. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have majored in Philosophy. But if my individual studies of Philosophy has taught be anything, it is there is no use in dwelling on the past. Thanks for that though!

UnixGuy

the_Grinch wrote: »

That is awesome! I wish they have something like this at the graduate level in the US. I was going to go for a BA in Philosophy, but after speaking with one of my professors it just made more sense to go onto the Masters. If I could go back and do it all over again, I would have majored in Philosophy. But if my individual studies of Philosophy has taught be anything, it is there is no use in dwelling on the past. Thanks for that though!

Next year I will probably start BA Philosophy (distance learning), you can take as little as one class per semester. It would be a nice change, as I'll probably be doing a MSc at the same time.

cxzar20

Slowhand wrote: »

I'm doing school full-time, I've got a ways to go as an undergrad before I can make the jump to being under-appreciated and over-worked, (to become a grad-student.) For now, though, I'm enjoying the academic life. The real irony is, I'll probably end up teaching IT-related courses at one of the local community-colleges in the area after I finally apply for an Associate's from my old school, since that, (along with six years+ industry experience,) is what they look for to teach networking and sysadmin type of classes.


I don't know, this list really just strikes me as the usual, "I didn't get much out of school so you won't either" kind of rants. The points are valid, but the reality is that everyone should know these things before going into a graduate program and still be willing to do it. A lot of the entries on the list are just "it's really hard" type of complaints, and the "your degree won't get you anywhere but possibly a job teaching" comments are a little bit trite and more than a bit cynical. Honestly, it doesn't sound a whole lot different than the same song and dance I see from people who spend four or five years partying at a state school only to take a B.A. in some humanities subject they don't care about, then are bitter because it doesn't open all the doors they were expecting it would.

At the end of the day, your academic journey is like every other endeavor in life: you get as much out of it as you are willing to put into it. . . and doing it for the wrong reasons - like thinking you're going to get rich - will almost always leave you disappointed and jaded.

I somewhat agree with that, came across that blog about six months ago and follow it about once a week. I just wanted to let the OP know that there is another side to trying to break into academia. This would also apply to those trying to break into the law field. The main points that I took away from that blog pertain to the crazy competitiveness and oversupply of PhDs for the scarce open positions.

Turgon

UnixGuy wrote: »

even if it's not Princeton, I'm still jealous

ohh, check this out:
Computer Science and Philosophy - Computer Science at OxfordHow interesting is this!!

Marvellous course.

Before you get too excited getting accepted to do a degree at Oxford requires outstanding academic background, unless you are a son of a beneficary or going on to row a boat. Also studying at Oxford costs a lot of money.

The average annual salary of Computing Laboratory graduates who finished their studies in the 2007/8 academic year was $48,000

GAngel

UnixGuy wrote: »

Good points. So what did the masters degree add to your career? and what's your plans for the PhD ? Are you going full time or part time? How do you think the PhD is going to help you?

Nothing really the first was paid for by the firm I worked at. The second was because it was a great opportunity to branch out if i ever left IT. The current is to prep for a doctorate. The doctorate is just a personal goal as it will give me time to write the book I've wanted to do and publish a few papers.

Im undecided at the moment i wont have to decide for a year+. Depends on the schools programs reputations and what they offer. Who I study under is more important than where I do it at this point. It wont help besides putting a huge dent into my lifestyle for 5-6 years. I'd be a terrible academic as my fields of study have been too broad.

UnixGuy

Turgon wrote: »

Marvellous course.

Before you get too excited getting accepted to do a degree at Oxford requires outstanding academic background, unless you are a son of a beneficary or going on to row a boat. Also studying at Oxford costs a lot of money.

The average annual salary of Computing Laboratory graduates who finished their studies in the 2007/8 academic year was $48,000

my father doesn't own anything, so that's not a good option for me now I'm gonna do BA philosophy (cheap and through distance learning) but that's it. I love Oxbridge, maybe If I manage to build a better academic/research track I might get a chance.


What's "Computing Laboratory" ? Is it a research company ? the average salary is too bad...but I guess those who work full time in academia and part time in labs do better don't you think?

UnixGuy

GAngel wrote: »

Nothing really the first was paid for by the firm I worked at. The second was because it was a great opportunity to branch out if i ever left IT. The current is to prep for a doctorate. The doctorate is just a personal goal as it will give me time to write the book I've wanted to do and publish a few papers.

Im undecided at the moment i wont have to decide for a year+. Depends on the schools programs reputations and what they offer. Who I study under is more important than where I do it at this point. It wont help besides putting a huge dent into my lifestyle for 5-6 years. I'd be a terrible academic as my fields of study have been too broad.

You will do a dissertation-only PhD only right? Do you have to go full time for that?

erpadmin

UnixGuy wrote: »

I definitely agree with all your points here, good luck with your conquest. Do you mind having a doctorate from a non US university? There are cheaper options in UK, Australia, South Africa and Malaysia. It's not distance learning, but a dissertation-only PhD, where you need to agree with a faculty member on how the research will be conducted. Usually you will need certain visits to the campus, but you don't have to relocate. Those universities are B&M university with regional accreditation and some with a world class high ranking.

Out of the options you listed, I wouldn't mind one from the UK. I'd have to do some homework on this, but I'm neither for it or against it at this time. Right now, I would rather focus on getting a Master's and see what options I have later. It is my hope that there will be more US-based distance-learning options to obtain a doctorate that does not break the bank. But if I found getting a doctorate in either of the countries you mentioned acceptable, I would not be opposed to it.

All of those countries you mentioned (after the UK) are part of the British Commonwealth. I wonder if there are American to British primers for paper writing.

GAngel

UnixGuy wrote: »

You will do a dissertation-only PhD only right? Do you have to go full time for that?

No I don't think so I plan to do most of the masters courses anyways as refreshers.

N2IT

demonfurbie wrote: »

now ive done some teaching and ive found that for time work its not near as much pay or satisfaction you would expect.

ive found a nice balance for me is teaching at a 2 year school and/or teaching cert classes at one. Right now im getting ready to setup a sec+ class over 2 weeks at night, the extra income is nice and you never know when it can turn into a full time job.

you may ask your local testing center if they are looking for teachers to teach a cert class, kinda get your feet wet see if you even like teaching

This is what I have heard from my colleagues who attempted this. One generally loves doing it, but says it's a drain. The others flat out thought it was a waste of time. The two biggest grips I heard about teaching part time is
A. The pay flat out stinks
B. You are forced to rewrite your curriculum everytime there is a version change or a class change. This leads to a lot of effort that is not justified in their eyes.

FYI those are their opinions not my own.

However it's not for me, but some people are convicted by this. Personally it sounds like you could deliver pizza's and make the same amount of cash. [At least if you are teaching at a community college].

erpadmin

N2IT wrote: »

This is what I have heard from my colleagues who attempted this. One generally loves doing it, but says it's a drain. The others flat out thought it was a waste of time. The two biggest grips I heard about teaching part time is
A. The pay flat out stinks
B. You are forced to rewrite your curriculum everytime there is a version change or a class change. This leads to a lot of effort that is not justified in their eyes.

It's not for me, but some people are convicted by this. Personally it sounds like you could deliver pizza's and make the same amount of cash. [At least if you are teaching at a community college].

As I stated earlier, the pay is generally beer money if you are adjunct teaching. Most adjuncts have either a real full-time job OR are retired from their real jobs and do it to stay busy.

The benefits DO outweigh the pay...even if you are doing it for altruistic reasons ("to make a difference in a student's life...")

[None of my colleagues have such altruistic notions...deep down in my heart, I might...but I'm smart enough to know it wouldn't last...]

N2IT

erpadmin wrote: »

As I stated earlier, the pay is generally beer money if you are adjunct teaching. Most adjuncts have either a real full-time job OR are retired from their real jobs and do it to stay busy.

The benefits DO outweigh the pay...even if you are doing it for altruistic reasons ("to make a difference in a student's life...")

[None of my colleagues have such altruistic notions...deep down in my heart, I might...but I'm smart enough to know it wouldn't last...]

You make some really good points. The beer money statement is classic FYI. I was on a call with my boss and started laughing. He was confused to say the least, I explained I was reading a funny blog and he understood. (Of course I mentioned it was IT related).

UnixGuy

erpadmin wrote: »

Out of the options you listed, I wouldn't mind one from the UK. I'd have to do some homework on this, but I'm neither for it or against it at this time. Right now, I would rather focus on getting a Master's and see what options I have later. It is my hope that there will be more US-based distance-learning options to obtain a doctorate that does not break the bank. But if I found getting a doctorate in either of the countries you mentioned acceptable, I would not be opposed to it.

All of those countries you mentioned (after the UK) are part of the British Commonwealth. I wonder if there are American to British primers for paper writing.

I have been digging this for long time now, so I can brief you whenever you want I choose the UK too. All universities offer PhD this way, and the rankings of the universities vary. Your best bet is to get involved with research, the more research you have in your resume, the better your chance will be in a reputable university. MSc is a plus, but research is the deciding factor here. Good luck

UnixGuy

N2IT wrote: »

This is what I have heard from my colleagues who attempted this. One generally loves doing it, but says it's a drain. The others flat out thought it was a waste of time. The two biggest grips I heard about teaching part time is
A. The pay flat out stinks
B. You are forced to rewrite your curriculum everytime there is a version change or a class change. This leads to a lot of effort that is not justified in their eyes.

FYI those are their opinions not my own.

However it's not for me, but some people are convicted by this. Personally it sounds like you could deliver pizza's and make the same amount of cash. [At least if you are teaching at a community college].

I kind of agree with your colleagues. I do teaching, and I built a life-time relationship with some students because they enjoyed my UNIX classes, I gave my heart in those classes and made sure that they learned something. They were really happy, but that wasn't my goal, I was just working as per my personal standard.

My interest in academia or PhD is kind of personal. like @GAngel, I'd like to get involved in cutting-edge research, I'd like to do something with a "value". I make enough money with my current job, so I hope this wont be an issue

N2IT

UnixGuy wrote: »

I kind of agree with your colleagues. I do teaching, and I built a life-time relationship with some students because they enjoyed my UNIX classes, I gave my heart in those classes and made sure that they learned something. They were really happy, but that wasn't my goal, I was just working as per my personal standard.

My interest in academia or PhD is kind of personal. like @GAngel, I'd like to get involved in cutting-edge research, I'd like to do something with a "value". I make enough money with my current job, so I hope this wont be an issue

That sounds exciting, doing cutting edge research. I hope you achieve your goals.

erpadmin

UnixGuy wrote: »

I have been digging this for long time now, so I can brief you whenever you want I choose the UK too. All universities offer PhD this way, and the rankings of the universities vary. Your best bet is to get involved with research, the more research you have in your resume, the better your chance will be in a reputable university. MSc is a plus, but research is the deciding factor here. Good luck

Likewise, sir. I am very interested in hearing how you (or anyone else) fare on the path to academia.

I will no doubt do the same. I would rather discuss this topic here, than on degreeinfo.com because we're all like-minded folks and we speak the same language. A bulk of this information is over there, but I don't care much for their discussions.

UnixGuy

erpadmin wrote: »

Likewise, sir. I am very interested in hearing how you (or anyone else) fare on the path to academia.

I will no doubt do the same. I would rather discuss this topic here, than on degreeinfo.com because we're all like-minded folks and we speak the same language. A bulk of this information is over there, but I don't care much for their discussions.

As far as UK concerned, I'm looking at the universities in this world ranking system:
Academic Ranking of World Universities - 2011| Top 500 universities | Shanghai Ranking - 2011 | World University Ranking - 2011

In UK, you need to be aware of the League table here:
University guide 2012: University league table | Education | guardian.co.uk

Keep those two rankings in mind when choosing a university:

Search uni by uni, they ALL have "part time" PhD. you need to check the staff of the uni and find a prof with mutual interest who's willing to agree with you to take up a research and arrange your periodical visits to the UK (usually 2 months a year on average). However, you really need to show good research experience and academic track to prove that you can take up a research on your own.

erpadmin

UnixGuy wrote: »

Search uni by uni, they ALL have "part time" PhD. you need to check the staff of the uni and find a prof with mutual interest who's willing to agree with you to take up a research and arrange your periodical visits to the UK (usually 2 months a year on average). However, you really need to show good research experience and academic track to prove that you can take up a research on your own.

When you say 2 months a year, on average, is that a month's visit at a clip (twice)?

A lot of jobs (mine in particular) have heart attacks when you want to take more than two weeks off (at a time.)

How would this work if one wanted to keep "real-world" employment?

UnixGuy

erpadmin wrote: »

When you say 2 months a year, on average, is that a month's visit at a clip (twice)?

A lot of jobs (mine in particular) have heart attacks when you want to take more than two weeks off (at a time.)

How would this work if one wanted to keep "real-world" employment?

Mmm, It's a case by case agreement, so it depends on how you and your supervisor agree on that. It shouldn't be a problem, if you get admission by a good university, these things can be managed later

Slowhand

UnixGuy wrote: »

I agree. Also, I think everything mentioned in the "100 reason why NOT to go to grad school" applies to almost any other job. "It's stressful", "it's hard", "it's unfair", "brutal job", "politics"...this is just everywhere. The author of that blog needs some real world experience...

Most definitely, or perhaps the author shouldn't have gone through grad-school to begin with (if he did at all.) College isn't for everyone, and grad-school certainly isn't the path for more than the dedicated few that truly want to be there.

cxzar20 wrote: »

I somewhat agree with that, came across that blog about six months ago and follow it about once a week. I just wanted to let the OP know that there is another side to trying to break into academia. This would also apply to those trying to break into the law field. The main points that I took away from that blog pertain to the crazy competitiveness and oversupply of PhDs for the scarce open positions.

Indeed, that's a fair point. It's also true for some fields moreso than others, and something that people really have to think about before jumping into a grad-school. If you want to study physics, chances are your career - academic or professional - won't be hurt one bit by a PhD. (That's not to say there aren't out-of-work physicists out there.) If you're studying something like humanities or a more generalized liberal arts focus, then it's probably more important to ask yourself, "Do I need a PhD? What are the actual benefits? Is it worth it?", because the reasons for doing the full-on thesis-journey might not be as apparent, and in the end they may end up being much more about your own personal growth and not your career.

(Broad examples, I know, but you get the idea. )

the_Grinch

I love the beer money/you could make more delivering pizzas. If given the two options, teaching or delivering pies, I'd take teaching any day. More work sure, but people are cheap and when the economy blows so does your tip. Plus weekends/holidays off, nice in door conditions, it really can't be beat. Besides, nice to have something to fall back on if you get laid off or retire...

erpadmin

the_Grinch wrote: »

I love the beer money/you could make more delivering pizzas.

You understand that my point of mentioning beer money was only to state facts about pay, right? I never cared about the pay; but the other benefits that come with being an adjunct (such as...teaching experience.)

Adjuncting is definitely easier than delivering pies or working at McDonald's. No one does it to get rich; but rather give them something to do for a little bit of cash.

Trust me, in this economy....beer money definitely helps. Plus, you're not adding wear and tear on your car or asking if you want fries with that (or...for the 21st century, saying "Welcome to Wallmart...")

the_Grinch

erpadmin wrote: »

You understand that my point of mentioning beer money was only to state facts about pay, right? I never cared about the pay; but the other benefits that come with being an adjunct (such as...teaching experience.)

Adjuncting is definitely easier than delivering pies or working at McDonald's. No one does it to get rich; but rather give them something to do for a little bit of cash.

Trust me, in this economy....beer money definitely helps. Plus, you're not adding wear and tear on your car or asking if you want fries with that (or...for the 21st century, saying "Welcome to Wallmart...")

I understand, I was merely replying to those who scoff at teaching as an adjunct since the pay was low. Extra cash is extra cash, right about now I would kill for a teaching position In two years, I should be able to start....

erpadmin

Unixguy, or perhaps others who might be considering a Ph.D, what is your opinion of this program?

Indiana State University: College of Technology: Ph.D. in Technology Management

You have to choose one specialization from the following:

Construction Management
Digital Communication Systems
HRD and Industrial Training
Manufacturing Systems
Quality Systems

Personally, I'm more inclined between Digital Communications Systems, followed by HRD and Industrial Training and then Quality Systems. The rest is a bit outside my scope.

Two things I liked about this program are that

A) They do prepare you for academia...folks are able to get into tenure-track positions with this Ph.D
You do not have to give up your day job to pursue this Ph.D

It has a residency requirement, but none of this quit work for a year nonsense. And it's geared to be done online when not in residence, from what I gathered. I'm not sure how long this program has been available, but I'm hoping that the initial information will be more streamlined by the time I'm done with my Master's. I'm also hoping that other B&Ms will offer similar product.

I welcome any opinion on this.

GAngel

Looks like a money grab to me as is any other doctorate you have to pay for. Don't fall in love with the title it will be one of those things you regret for years to come. You should know exactly what you want to study then find a unis with a well respected SME who will pick you up. That looks far more like a professional doctorate than something that would put you on the tenured track.

paul78

UnixGuy wrote: »

I believe most of the members are here working in "the real world" (i.e. IT industry) and not in academia.

So what do you guys think of working in academia? would you go for a PhD ( 6+ yrs degree in the US) and teach at a reputable university of you get a chance to?

In terms of money, do University Proffs make more money in the long run ? In terms of challenge/fun/job satisfaction, which field is more interesting?

BTW - one other option as far as working for a university doesn't have anything with being a professor.

I worked for a university in the northeast US for a few years very early in my career. I worked in the Computer Services group that supported the university. And I still look back very fondly at those times. As you indicated, the base salary was not great but the benefits were very good - including flex time, generous vacation, free classes. The atmosphere could not be beat.

The work was also extremely satisfying which included working on early supercomputers, developing secure systems applications, and supporting various research problems. One of my more gratifying projects was to support systems that taught new doctors about brain cancer research for the medical school.

erpadmin

GAngel wrote: »

Looks like a money grab to me as is any other doctorate you have to pay for. Don't fall in love with the title it will be one of those things you regret for years to come. You should know exactly what you want to study then find a unis with a well respected SME who will pick you up. That looks far more like a professional doctorate than something that would put you on the tenured track.

I don't really have enough information to agree or disagree with this. However, I would rather do this program than one offered by Uni. of Phoenix, Capella, Walden, or any other for-profit school, all of which offer Ph.D programs that, to my knowledge have little respect among real academics. At least this one is from a respected brick and mortar school. Most professional doctorates that I've seen offered were DBAs, D.Sc., etc. This one, at least, is a Ph.D and one that can be done in a distance learning format, with little time spent for residency. A more traditional Ph.D format would require one to quit their job or otherwise take a long leave of abscence (likely without pay).

Also, not even mentioning this as a counter-arugment; just something to note that this school is boasting that their graduates are teaching at universities throughout the US. In their one powerpoint presentation, the last slide shows a lady who's a professor at James Madison University, which is the only one I've personally heard of.

I'm not trying to defend this degree, as I know very little about it. But this could be evidence that B&Ms are starting to slowly make their Ph.D programs available to folks who can't quit their jobs to pursue academia, but yet would like to be called "Doctor."