College degrees are worthless

tokhss

There are a lot of Govt/state jobs that require Min BS or Masters, even a lot of private/technical jobs do when you're first starting out. its only at a certain point in your career when experience trumps over technical degree's/certs. its true that earning a degree is $$ and to pay it off can be very difficult, specially in this economy..Prior to dot.com bust, payoff would have been cake! Notice, there are a lot of grads from top notch schools that cant even land a job once their done..

I remember the year of my grad back in 2003. In 2001 i realized simply having a degree wouldn't land me the job. I started working @ min wage in my field, at the cost of getting great academic scores. The result, half of my class didn't find a single job, some for a full year.. however, my experience landed me a job right before grad.. full time gig ..

looking back, was my education loan worth it.. I would say yes and no.. in one hand, im still paying off this ridiculous loan and on another hand going to school taught me discipline on a different level. I dont think i would have learned this had I not gone to school .. I admit, i was a poor student in high school, at least up till 9th grade.. but i changed my act and did well towards the end, finally stepping up my game afterwards... What i am saying is, had i not gone to a university and simply tried to study technical material on my own time, that discipline would have tanked.

Degree's arent worth the cost in my book..even when you're connected and making $$$$$$. Education in America sucks ass compared to other countries. I believe Japan and some middle eastern countries produce some major talent and have a much more in depth and thorough curriculum. I think students attend a 6 day school week!!

At the end, what counts is what you do. I never had the guidance I wish i had, but I can only TG now and move forward.

networker050184

Any mark you can get on the resume has some worth. Are degrees over priced? Sure, but so are a lot of things in this country.

I will say one thing, I have interviewed quite a few people in the last few weeks and I can't tell you whether any of them had a degree or not. I'm sure they had it listed on their resume, but its just not something that is even remotely important that I look for in someone to fill a technical role. On the other hand, I'm sure some people will not even look at your resume without a degree. I say go for it if you have the means.

CodeBlox

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

I agree that college degree are worthless. If i can turn back time, I would spend my money somewhere else.

But would you be where you are without it?

tpatt100

Every case is different and you need to break things down and examine it closely rather than studies that show income+degree. I said it a million times before but every job I have had was due to college in some way or another. My first IT job was due to sitting next to a guy in class who I made friends with who remembered me and referred me for a defense contractor this happened over a decade ago.

My second IT job was because the City chucked all the resumes that did not have a four year degree and only chose who to interview from the pile. They showed me a few months after I was hired and we were moving offices and there were several boxes of papers we were shredding.

My third IT job when I got back from Iraq I received an extra 15K a year because due to my degree I qualified for a senior position vs mid level.

My IT jobs after that none of them were advertised, the HR departments browsed LinkedIn and Monster and sifted through them. At my current job they said they did not call anybody without a four year degree. (I was told this recently when I tried referring a buddy of mine)

Ignoring the salary issue I focused on placing a value on "what ifs" meaning what if I didn't get a call for some of these hidden jobs? I was unemployed for six months so I went from making 620 dollars every two weeks after taxes from unemployment back to the upper 80's in salary which to me is a heck of a lot better. If I did not have a four year degree the past couple of years means I would NOT have had those opportunities so instead look at what is the value of missed opportunities vs actual opportunities?

Everybody is different and each case is unique, what works for John might not work for Sue but I realized a LONG time ago that aiming for the least amount of effort because "so and so" did not have certs or a degree or he/she watched Sailor Moon all day and makes 100K a year is just increasing your chances of failure. It might make you feel better but sorry from my personal experience education and certs did help me a lot. WGU and making me study/take the GIAC G2700 helped me dazzle the crap out of my current employer during the interview. The CISSP I took the week before my interview with a large defense contractor helped me ace the technical/managerial question portion of the interview.

p.s. You need to have realistic expectations also. Just because it did not work for you NOW doesn't mean it won't help you later.

powerfool

I will just add... my current company, which is listed on Forbes latest 100 best companies to work for... they have a policy of not hiring anyone without a bachelors degree. Their only exceptions: 1) When they take over a contract from an incumbent and client wants existing contractors retained and they potentially do not have a degree, or 2) they are in a pinch to fill a position, so they open it up to associate degree holders and hire them under the contingency that they will complete their bachelors degree within two years or be terminated.

My finances are in their best shape of my life, currently, despite weakened buying power due to the economy. I could have gone cheaper on my degree, but to say that I would have been where I am without one entirely is folly.

Also, completing my masters degree will merely put me up there with the top 40% of my coworkers... as that many already have graduate degrees.

erpadmin

tokhss wrote: »

There are a lot of Govt/state jobs that require Min BS or Masters, even a lot of private/technical jobs do when you're first starting out. its only at a certain point in your career when experience trumps over technical degree's/certs. its true that earning a degree is $$ and to pay it off can be very difficult, specially in this economy..Prior to dot.com bust, payoff would have been cake! Notice, there are a lot of grads from top notch schools that cant even land a job once their done..

As a state employee for over 14 and a half years throughout three places of employment (both local and state), I can tell you that "experience" can be used in lieu of degree. I found it a hoot, personally, that I would end up making the same as folks with a Master's while being in the same job title. However, that came at a cost. I had to start at a lower salary in my title, and then go up in salary only due to union-mandated steps/raises in COL increases to get to the salary I enjoy today (a bit shy of six figures.) I had some college, and that was in part, why I got the job. (That, and each year of experience can be used to substitute for 30 credit hours) At the time, that would have meant I had a Master's already by that logic, since I had broke into IT at the age of 19. Fast forward to today, and thanks in large part to TE and WGU, I'm now officially a college graduate. I only bothered with that so that I can get my Master's and hopefully leverage my experience to get into IT management; be it at my current gig (doubtful, because someone has to retire) OR elsewhere, hopefully in higher ed or government.

Seriously, no one is going to disagree that degrees are expensive. I didn't even have to get a degree...I could have just did what I was told for about 11 to 22 years more and done a deferred retirement OR an early retirement (I'm leaning toward the latter, but in case I can't because of the powers that be, a deferred will be fine.) However, I didn't want to feel stuck doing the same thing all day...I want to be a decision maker, not merely an implementer with some input. That's why some people will get an MS...it's just another checkbox. Everything you will do in your career is a checkbox. (Getting degrees, getting certs, being at a certain shop for x amount of years, etc., etc.)

An education, IMO, is simply another cost of doing business.

NetworkingStudent

LucasMN wrote: »

Watched the video on lunch. Many good points, very one sided though. The one guy throughout the video is very sarcastic and made me laugh.

25.8% of my monthly take home goes towards paying off student loans, and that's only the minimum payment. I'm looking at paying for another 8 years, been paying for just over 1. Unless my income changes drastically, I cannot afford a house, car payment, marriage or child until I get them paid off. Right now, the raises I get barely cover inflation of rent and food.

It sucks and I wish someone had told me when I was 17 that the private college I signed up for was extremely expensive compared to a local community college.

….I wish someone told me the following:
If your degree isn’t regionally accredited, good luck transferring to another college.
When I was in school I never knew about accreditation, in fact I always thought that all colleges were pretty much the same with the exception of the big universities.

I could have taken fewer classes and received my degree faster at a community /technical college.
I still remember my A.A.S degree having credit requirements of 90 something, while the local community college and technical colleges have degree requirements of 60 credits.


For what I paid in tution at a for profit school I could have obtained two A.A.S degree's

GAngel

powerfool wrote: »

The problem isn't whether college degrees are worthless or not... because they certainly have great value. Anyone that would claim otherwise is either bitter because of their choice of a degree, being defensive because of their lack of a degree, or just plain naive. I can't be anything but blunt, and if that is offensive, I have far more important things on my list of GaS.

Just because it is within the realm of the possible to get a job without a degree doesn't invalidate their value. One would easily be able to get a better job with one. And just because some people have been wildly successful without a degree doesn't, either... they are called outliers... and if you went to college and took elementary statistics, you would completely understand that... if you didn't, you still may understand but the chances are remote.

The problem is people doing more than necessary or choosing a ridiculously expensive degree from an Ivy League or similarly priced school and going after a major that is rather limited in terms of earning potential.... like going to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, or Stanford and majoring in elementary education. There is no way you are going to be able to afford your student loans on the salary you will get.

Instead, there are plenty of value options out there that will give you the same earning potential for those fields.

Getting an undergrad does not have to be expensive at all. We discuss this all of the time on this forum. There are options like local community colleges and WGU. You can go to school part-time. You can take courses from home or work. You can get tuition reimbursement. They exist.

If this is worthy of locking the thread, then I am sorry to those that want to seriously discuss the subject. Beyond that, have fun.

I have said it many times... if you value yourself, then you will invest in yourself... a big part of that is education. Unless you are working non-stop and earning so much money that picking up a dollar on the street causes you a net loss, there is no sense in being so pompous about not having a college degree.

Without getting into an argument the value of ivy school has nothing to do with what you study. Pretty much your entire first two years you will hear your profs mentioning it. If nothing else the alumni jobs network is worth the cost of the degree alone. The real big F100 jobs you think you see don't get advertised they move via word of mouth always have always will. These are the best and the brightest kids we're talking about they start the companies you work for and hire the people they know and worked with for the top jobs.

Iif someone was going to major in "elementary education" I would assume they would be looking to do a ms/doctorate along those lines to become a prof if I was the alumni recruiter. Those are the kinds of things you would be grilled on during the interview sessions. If they wern't they would probably be advised to pick another school.That career path is worth 6 figures 5 years after grad and near 200k 10 years after grad if we're talking ROI. All along the way he/she would be getting assistance/references/associates from people already at the top of the field. That is the true power of an ivy degree.

---

Regardless of degree or no degree the top 20% will do well.

it_consultant

There are a sad number of people that have degrees who are severely under employed and who are (rightfully so) questioning the value of their degrees. Blanket statements like "degrees are worthless" and "degrees are the way to a better future" are misleading because there isn't enough qualifying information to draw a serious conclusion. There is a serious problem with college and ROI when you compare it to training you could get for the same or less money. Many of us on these boards are in this boat. We are not what I would call traditionally educated but when you pack in the time spent becoming competent we don't look that much different than a college educated professional.

Someone said it before and it bears repeating - if you don't have a degree you will probably start lower on the totem pole. Some times not that much lower, but you will start lower. Is the opportunity cost of having a degree (time and debt) worth it? Sometimes it might be. Either way you have to pay your dues.

it_consultant

GAngel wrote: »

Without getting into an argument the value of ivy school has nothing to do with what you study. Pretty much your entire first two years you will hear your profs mentioning it. If nothing else the alumni jobs network is worth the cost of the degree alone. The real big F100 jobs you think you see don't get advertised they move via word of mouth always have always will. These are the best and the brightest kids we're talking about they start the companies you work for and hire the people they know and worked with for the top jobs.

Iif someone was going to major in "elementary education" I would assume they would be looking to do a ms/doctorate along those lines to become a prof if I was the alumni recruiter. Those are the kinds of things you would be grilled on during the interview sessions. If they wern't they would probably be advised to pick another school.That career path is worth 6 figures 5 years after grad and near 200k 10 years after grad if we're talking ROI. All along the way he/she would be getting assistance/references/associates from people already at the top of the field. That is the true power of an ivy degree.

---

Regardless of degree or no degree the top 20% will do well.

Using the example of the ivy leagues is the same as using the example of medical doctors. Most college students are neither ivy league nor studying to be a doctor. Using them as examples of the mean skews perception and should not be used.

GAngel

it_consultant wrote: »

Using the example of the ivy leagues is the same as using the example of medical doctors. Most college students are neither ivy league nor studying to be a doctor. Using them as examples of the mean skews perception and should not be used.

You did look at what i was replying to right? I have no intention of arguing the merits of degree or no degree with anyone. I spent a year listening to a mate write his thesis to statistically show both sides and the answer was still it depends. He's a pure mathematician and if he cant figure it out I don't expect to find the answer on a forum.

swild

XiaoTech wrote: »

...I dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and got my GED. Test was sooo easy back in 2001. I should have taken it after I finished the 8th grade.

I was d**n near dropping out in 10th grade and everyone told me I would regret it. Now I regret not doing it. College can be a worthy investment if you realize which disciplines are lucrative and which are gonna get you a nice job at Wendy's with hopes of being a manager one day.

Public high school is a complete waste of time. If you don't have it by then, you probably aren't gonna get it. Drop out and spend your high school years in college.

Psoasman

swild wrote: »

Public high school is a complete waste of time. If you don't have it by then, you probably aren't gonna get it. Drop out and spend your high school years in college.

Or better yet, do running start while in high school.. Several of my nieces have done this. Graduated at 18 from HS, with their AA degree. Saves time and money.

As far as whether degrees are worthless - they are not worthless. If there is a job you want and it requires a degree, which you don't have, then you are out of luck. Degrees can round out your education and can be your foot in the door for employment.
I think a lot of people went into school with stars in their eyes and had expectations that are / were too high and are are disappointed because they are unable to find a job after graduating. Or, they get a job that is not in line with what they thought they could get.

shodown

One other thing that was touched on a tad bit is the person. If your a person who is complacent with how the game is played you maybe best off without a degree as you just want to live the 9-5 life. If your the type that believes "Nine to five is how to survive, I ain't tryin' to survive
I'm tryin' to live it to the limit and love it a lot. I think you will be better ff without a degree and using that money for whatever hustle it is your working on at the moment.

Turgon

JDMurray wrote: »

Please keep all inter-member bickering to PMs. I'd hate to disappear a perfectly decent thread because of the threat of flames.

Echo that. Over the five years I have been on TE I have been neg repped only twice, so perhaps I got off lightly. On each occasion it was because my point of view either ran counter to that held by the entire thread or that held by the neg repper. Please do not neg rep individuals simply because you do not agree with them or incorrectly assume the poster is a spoiler. It's lame. Counter points of view stimulate thinking and debate which is a very positive thing for all following a thread. Terror by way of neg rep threat stifles debate, discourse and avenues to develop.

Turgon

Psoasman wrote: »

Or better yet, do running start while in high school.. Several of my nieces have done this. Graduated at 18 from HS, with their AA degree. Saves time and money.

As far as whether degrees are worthless - they are not worthless. If there is a job you want and it requires a degree, which you don't have, then you are out of luck. Degrees can round out your education and can be your foot in the door for employment.
I think a lot of people went into school with stars in their eyes and had expectations that are / were too high and are are disappointed because they are unable to find a job after graduating. Or, they get a job that is not in line with what they thought they could get.

I think far too many people are equating the value and merits of higher education on the $$$ value said education will lead to in the job stakes. This is the main reason why so many people are unhappy and wind up with loans they begrudge.

eserfeliz

Tell my boss with a GED that a college degree is worthless.

The two mid-level managers that are his peers have fewer functional areas to manage (although, some might argue, greater technical expertise is needed to manage them), get more respect from their bosses, and make $14k/year more than he does, even though he's been a manager and been employed by our organization longer.

Like money, a college degree is just a piece of paper. HOWEVER, what's important is not what it's made of, but how it is perceived by others within the organization. Some companies couldn't give a fig about your college degree. Perhaps certifications are seen as more valuable. For others, college degrees are essential.

Passing off an analysis of the value of college degrees as an objective pursuit is a little silly, in my opinion. Perhaps it's because I'm in my last semester of school and got my promotion early.

it_consultant

We who say that college degrees are worthless, or at least, not having one has not held use back, are not trying to belittle those who have gotten one or who are getting one right now. If I had a bachelor's degree in anything I would flaunt that for all that it could get me. Whether or not college is a worthwhile investment is totally up to the individual.

N2IT

I don't know about college degrees being worthless but I know that blanket statements are worthless.

davidboy

A lot of people lower-income students have the chance to go to college for free with financial aid here in the US. If I did not receive financial aid from the government, I would not have bothered with college. Those in the military also have this opportunity.

Also I remember reading on NACE that computer science majors had the lowest unemployment rate out right out of college compared to all other majors. That is with very good pay.

If you have the opportunity to go college for free, it would not be a bad idea even if you dont know what to do.

ptilsen

N2IT wrote: »

I don't know about college degrees being worthless but I know that blanket statements are worthless.

I see what you did there.

NOC-Ninja

CodeBlox wrote: »

But would you be where you are without it?

Probably better. If I knew CCIE back then, I wouldve not spend money on school after highschool. I would have got myself a INE/ipexpert/narbik/cisco WB, a CCIE lab and lab on my own.

An example is Scott Morris and Rick Mur. Scott finish photography or journalism (something non IT) and Rick Mur is 3x CCIE and JNCIE. I believe Rick Mur didnt finish any BS in Eng or IT. If i followed their footsteps then ill be making more than 100k with 10yrs experience in Networking and a great resume by now.

Management would be a different story. However, I have bumped into Manager that only have a BS in biology and a manager for IT in a well known biomedical company.

N2IT

I think the main idea is find what works for you. Some people are better at certifications and technology than others. Some people really struggle with the University format but really do well hands on. Some like me a pretty average at most things. The key is to understand your own strengths and leverage those. Remember cost is more than financial it's time as well. If someone is having to spend 70-80 hours a week just to keep up on one class then maybe that isn't the right path for them. Being honest with yourself and sticking to your plan is critical.

djfunz

I'm really interested in finding more about this so called "College Bubble" If the government just wipes away all the debt students owe from careless spending and so forth, how realistic are the chances of hyperinflation? Quite honestly all this government debt and spending, war, job loss, along with SOPA and new policies has me worried to come back to the States. I mean Europe starts looking better and better by the day. England has a very strong currency along with a good economy from what I hear and no crazy war debt, college debt crisis or bursting housing bubble problems.

Great quote by the way and it's happening here in Germany too.

"There's no value to having a college degree if everyone else has one."

someuser23

You need to go to school, the degree is important but just as important is that college shows focus, those who can go to college for 4 or even 2 years and focus on their degree, work hard and study. I didn't take school seriously and by looking at my posts you see how depressed I am. college isn't about just the degree but it's mostly about focusing on the task and following through with it.

I work dead end jobs and you can see how I am, not a happy camper at all but I don't have any real skills to better my situation and I'm closing in on 40.

That video is just stupid, it's not even worth watching imo. Yes, some colleges are bad and give worthless degrees but the main problem will always be the uneducated not doing research on the school.

Reps will always beat Dems as the blame is usually placed on the people instead of the corporations, usually it's the people who lack the knowledge to plan and research.

School is very important without a doubt, stick with reading a book and studying for 4 years is admirably and not something most people like to do, you show you have a strong work ethic and that you did good in school, you'll most likely come out ahead.

I slacked for years and I regret it.

powerfool

eserfeliz wrote: »

Tell my boss with a GED that a college degree is worthless.

The two mid-level managers that are his peers have fewer functional areas to manage (although, some might argue, greater technical expertise is needed to manage them), get more respect from their bosses, and make $14k/year more than he does, even though he's been a manager and been employed by our organization longer.

Like money, a college degree is just a piece of paper. HOWEVER, what's important is not what it's made of, but how it is perceived by others within the organization. Some companies couldn't give a fig about your college degree. Perhaps certifications are seen as more valuable. For others, college degrees are essential.

Passing off an analysis of the value of college degrees as an objective pursuit is a little silly, in my opinion. Perhaps it's because I'm in my last semester of school and got my promotion early.

That is anecdotal, however, and doesn't represent the vast majority of folks experiences. Good for him, though.

it_consultant

N2IT wrote: »

I think the main idea is find what works for you. Some people are better at certifications and technology than others. Some people really struggle with the University format but really do well hands on. Some like me a pretty average at most things. The key is to understand your own strengths and leverage those. Remember cost is more than financial it's time as well. If someone is having to spend 70-80 hours a week just to keep up on one class then maybe that isn't the right path for them. Being honest with yourself and sticking to your plan is critical.

This is spot on - college is also time and time is money for a lot of us. If not having a college degree is working out for someone, spending a lot of time at a university will look very unappealing. Some people just enjoy going to college too, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As long as you don't complain about your student loans at dinner parties .

N2IT

it_consultant wrote: »

This is spot on - college is also time and time is money for a lot of us. If not having a college degree is working out for someone, spending a lot of time at a university will look very unappealing. Some people just enjoy going to college too, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that. As long as you don't complain about your student loans at dinner parties .

LOL

I was one who went to college for fun. I was 18 years old come on why not! I had a blast and don't regret going for all the wrong reason. I even managed to scrap a degree out of it

snokerpoker

College degrees are not worthless. After finishing WGU, I received over a 10% pay increase.

Jayjett90

College degrees are not worthless, although when i first got into college I thought it was worthless. Bottom line is, especially for IT, certifications can help you out and validate your skills but that degree is what helps you grow in the company and like other people said the limits are much further than without a degree. This is my opinion and what I think of course because currently I am just an intern getting my feet into the door:D but I think it makes sense