When is it okay to get a cert and when is it not?

N2IT

Let me explain. We discussed that most Comptia's certifications are introductory, even though the requirements say they aren't. So in other words you are more than okay to get these with little to no experience. How about Microsoft though and Cisco? Will these certifications bring value without experience. And even higher up, like the CCNP or the MCSE/MCITP SA.

Where I am really trying to get at is that is there a trend here? The higher the level of a certification the more critical it is to have hands on experience in that particular technology.

A+ N+ S+ CIW ITIL V3, MOS, ETC (No to little experience needed)

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

MCITP VA/EA, CCNP on up, RedHat/UNIX, ISACA (At this level you have to have experience that mirrors up to the certification or your credentials are almost deemed worthless). Someone with a CCNP and has never had a IT job would throw a huge fat red flag in my eyes. Same with the EA, I couldn't imagine a guy who 0 or less than 2 years of experience in IT with a VA or EA certification.


Thoughts?

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

Let me explain. We discussed that most Comptia's certifications are introductory, even though the requirements say they aren't. So in other words you are more than okay to get these with little to no experience. How about Microsoft though and Cisco? Will these certifications bring value without experience. And even higher up, like the CCNP or the MCSE/MCITP SA.

Where I am really trying to get at is that is there a trend here. The higher the level of a certification the more critical it is to have hands on experience in that particular technology.

A+ N+ S+ CIW ITIL V3, MOS, ETC (No to little experience needed)

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

MCITP VA/EA, CCNP on up, RedHat/UNIX, ISACA (At this level you have to have experience that mirrors up to the certification or your credentials are almost deemed worthless). Someone with a CCNP and has never had a IT job would throw a huge fat red flag in my eyes. Same with the EA, I couldn't imagine a guy who 0 or less than 2 years of experience in IT with a VA or EA certification.


Thoughts?

People want a job and a chance to prosper and do well for their families. Having experience makes it easier to get that job. Having experience plus a relevant certification makes it more easier. Having not enough experience and a certification to entice someone to give you an opportunity to gain that experience is just fine. The opportunities for people to get significant hands on experience in technical fields have been shrinking since 2001 due to advances in technology, economies of scale, corporate strategy and the outsourcing model and to some degree standards like ITIL, which make sense for organisations and do create some jobs, but remove many others. Many very capable people have abandoned technical roles due to this trend the last 10 years, and many capable people who want technical roles are finding it increasingly hard to obtain them as there are fewer openings that *skill* people. We will pay a price for this in the years ahead, so to those who are technical, hang on in there..you will get calls in 5 years time!

What is happening to IT has happened to every industry once it starts to mature. The technical skills get compressed to a vanishing point as well as the rewards and the management layers move in. We need technical people, but the opportunities to progress within technical ranks, even to get experience in technical ranks are diminshing. Eventually a service manager will run out of anyone who actually knows how to sync a Nokia firewall to save his service.

QHalo

Whether it throws a red flag or not, believing a certification attached to a resume is probably folly to begin with. A simple phone interview would weed that person out fairly quickly if they dumped it and somehow passed your initial "BS" meter. And if you're looking for someone with experience and you were searching for hits on "CCNP", you would immediately discard that resume anyway. I don't think its wrong to cert CCNP if you have no experience. To compete these days even with entry level jobs you have to do whatever you can to get yourself ahead (as long as you actually learn the materials and don't **** the exams). The folly is thinking that just because you have a CCNP you're entitled to an 90k a year job. It might help you over the hump and past someone into an entry NOC position who only has a CCNA but it's not going to land you a senior role with no experience. It's about what you do with the material you learned from the certification rather.

If anything is wrong with IT these days, in my humble opinion, is the severe lack of mentoring of junior staff. It just doesn't as often as it should from what I've seen and that Turgon, is what I think leads a service manager to not having anyone around to sync a Nokia firewall. A lot of the seniors that have that knowledge simply do it because they know how and can't be bothered to show a junior staff member. I've been witness and also subjected to it with other technologies. "Nah, I'll do it myself. It's faster."

Sorry I may have digressed there a bit.

buzzkill

Agree. It's great that entry level certs can help people show initiative, a keenness to learn and assist them with getting their foot in the door.

"Paper certs" on the other hand are not so good, like you say a CCNP or PRO level MS cert without the relevant experience to back it up is not good for anyone. If hiring managers are interested in certs to begin with then they will also expect the higher level ones to be accompanied by the relevant industry experience so it's debatable how advantageous it is for someone with zero experience to go for these types of certs in the first place.

Turgon

QHalo wrote: »

Whether it throws a red flag or not, believing a certification attached to a resume is probably folly to begin with. A simple phone interview would weed that person out fairly quickly if they dumped it and somehow passed your initial "BS" meter. And if you're looking for someone with experience and you were searching for hits on "CCNP", you would immediately discard that resume anyway. I don't think its wrong to cert CCNP if you have no experience. To compete these days even with entry level jobs you have to do whatever you can to get yourself ahead (as long as you actually learn the materials and don't **** the exams). The folly is thinking that just because you have a CCNP you're entitled to an 90k a year job. It might help you over the hump and past someone into an entry NOC position who only has a CCNA but it's not going to land you a senior role with no experience. It's about what you do with the material you learned from the certification rather.

If anything is wrong with IT these days, in my humble opinion, is the severe lack of mentoring of junior staff. It just doesn't as often as it should from what I've seen and that Turgon, is what I think leads a service manager to not having anyone around to sync a Nokia firewall. A lot of the seniors that have that knowledge simply do it because they know how and can't be bothered to show a junior staff member. I've been witness and also subjected to it with other technologies. "Nah, I'll do it myself. It's faster."

Sorry I may have digressed there a bit.

There is a gap, but I dont think it's solely down to grouchy old farts not being prepared to bring junior people through. There just is a gap. It's a cultural problem and a corporate direction problem where technical people are less valued than they used to be. We have lost a lot of capable people in the ipad generation as a consequence. When the ranks of old sweats gets too thin there will be opportunities for young bucks who have the skills. But I agree they are way short on veterans to mentor them.

The management drones are not interested in this situation. They will hang on and toddle off and retire in 10 - 15 years time. Then the skills gap will be dire. The problem is, can the young make a living between now and then so they are useful? In some cases yes, in many no. They have bills to pay the same as the rest of us.

Turgon

buzzkill wrote: »

Agree. It's great that entry level certs can help people show initiative, a keenness to learn and assist them with getting their foot in the door.

"Paper certs" on the other hand are not so good, like you say a CCNP or PRO level MS cert without the relevant experience to back it up is not good for anyone. If hiring managers are interested in certs to begin with then they will also expect the higher level ones to be accompanied by the relevant industry experience so it's debatable how advantageous it is for someone with zero experience to go for these types of certs in the first place.

The problem is getting that experience. It's really difficult these days. The corporate helpdesks are swarming with overqualified people who have never seen a server, never mind built one. The senior IT roles are nailed down by 30/40/50 somethings who are a long way from retiring.

vinbuck

I think sometimes we get so caught up in passing the exam that we forget the purpose of the certification in the first place (at least in the way it benefits the individual) which is to provide a structured training program for a specific area of expertise, product or technology. It is the framework that allows us to become more proficient and discover other areas of knowledge that might be off limits without a solid foundation in which to understand them.

In short, if you do certifications the right way, you should aim to become a master at your craft and the rest of the pieces will fall into place. It is not a quick process and it requires perserverance and patience, however, the results and dividends paid will become evident in time. When you are consistently the "go-to" guy or gal for a project, you will know that you are on the right track.

Job markets are different all around the globe, but if you excel at what you do, there will be a place for you.

bud08

N2IT wrote: »

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

Thoughts?

I am a career changer and I am still waiting for that 1st IT job. I am following this train of thought while job hunting. I won't be getting my CCNA until I have that 1st job. I am still undecided on whether to get my CCENT now or wait for it too.

I feel like not having the CCNA yet really doesn't mean much to me because I can't get those jobs anyway w/o experience and I get a longer time to study. Just sharing.

4_lom

I think it all depends on the person and the situation. To generalize it and say that "in every economy with every corporation, certifications without experience will throw up a "big fat red flag" and have management throw your resume out the window" is wrong. If a person gets a certification just to get a cert and put it on a resume, then they probably deserve a red flag. But if a person gets a cert to prove that they have knowledge in an area, and they go beyond just reading a textbook and then taking the exam, they will probably go far. I know people who have worked in the industry for years and still don't know as much as some people with no experience. Like I said, it all depends on the person, how motivated and passionate they are about the topic, and the situation at the time. Mainly I just wanted to say you're wrong for generalizing it like this:

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

Just my opinion.

4_lom

bud08 wrote: »

I am a career changer and I am still waiting for that 1st IT job. I am following this train of thought while job hunting. I won't be getting my CCNA until I have that 1st job. I am still undecided on whether to get my CCENT now or wait for it too.

I feel like not having the CCNA yet really doesn't mean much to me because I can't get those jobs anyway w/o experience and I get a longer time to study. Just sharing.

CCNA is an entry level cert, and without prior experience, is likely to get you a CCENT level job. Using this theory (which has been proven right more times than not), the CCENT alone will get you nothing. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I would at least get the CCNA before even thinking about trying to start a career in computer networking. Yes, there are people out there who are "all paper", but they can usually be weeded out with a few interview questions. Don't worry about being "all paper", just be passionate and determined about IT... like me.

You will go far, don't ever let anyone tell you that TRYING won't get you anywhere.

4_lom

QHalo wrote: »

Whether it throws a red flag or not, believing a certification attached to a resume is probably folly to begin with. A simple phone interview would weed that person out fairly quickly if they dumped it and somehow passed your initial "BS" meter. And if you're looking for someone with experience and you were searching for hits on "CCNP", you would immediately discard that resume anyway. I don't think its wrong to cert CCNP if you have no experience. To compete these days even with entry level jobs you have to do whatever you can to get yourself ahead (as long as you actually learn the materials and don't **** the exams). The folly is thinking that just because you have a CCNP you're entitled to an 90k a year job. It might help you over the hump and past someone into an entry NOC position who only has a CCNA but it's not going to land you a senior role with no experience. It's about what you do with the material you learned from the certification rather.

If anything is wrong with IT these days, in my humble opinion, is the severe lack of mentoring of junior staff. It just doesn't as often as it should from what I've seen and that Turgon, is what I think leads a service manager to not having anyone around to sync a Nokia firewall. A lot of the seniors that have that knowledge simply do it because they know how and can't be bothered to show a junior staff member. I've been witness and also subjected to it with other technologies. "Nah, I'll do it myself. It's faster."

Sorry I may have digressed there a bit.

Pure genius. Couldn't have said it better myself.

bud08

4_lom wrote: »

CCNA is an entry level cert, and without prior experience, is likely to get you a CCENT level job. Using this theory (which has been proven right more times than not), the CCENT alone will get you nothing. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I would at least get the CCNA before even thinking about trying to start a career in computer networking. Yes, there are people out there who are "all paper", but they can usually be weeded out with a few interview questions. Don't worry about being "all paper", just be passionate and determined about IT... like me.

You will go far, don't ever let anyone tell you that TRYING won't get you anywhere.

N2IT

4_lom wrote: »

I think it all depends on the person and the situation. To generalize it and say that "in every economy with every corporation, certifications without experience will throw up a "big fat red flag" and have management throw your resume out the window" is wrong. If a person gets a certification just to get a cert and put it on a resume, then they probably deserve a red flag. But if a person gets a cert to prove that they have knowledge in an area, and they go beyond just reading a textbook and then taking the exam, they will probably go far. I know people who have worked in the industry for years and still don't know as much as some people with no experience. Like I said, it all depends on the person, how motivated and passionate they are about the topic, and the situation at the time. Mainly I just wanted to say you're wrong for generalizing it like this:

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

Just my opinion.

The one I really disagree with is the last row of certifications. You think someone with 1-2 years of help desk experience and a MCITP EA or CCA Citrix looks normal? That wouldn't kick off a red flag to you?

I'm just wondering, I've been in this game for a while now and I never met anyone at that level who possessed those certifications.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

The one I really disagree with is the last row of certifications. You think someone with 1-2 years of help desk experience and a MCITP EA or CCA Citrix looks normal? That wouldn't kick off a red flag to you?

I'm just wondering, I've been in this game for a while now and I never met anyone at that level who possessed those certifications.

I think we have to careful of levels here. To a large degree the work you have done and are doing does define your career prospects, but once you top out at work then what? Wait for more responsibility? One can ask for it but it isn't always forthcoming. Companies look on technical people as resource these days and if you are filling the hole they need you to fill, often that is where you will stay.

Nothing wrong with pushing yourself beyond the brief you have at work to study for and learn more advanced things, and it's a good thing that people do so as companies are not investing in training like they used to. The quality of the certification holder varies of course, as is their ability to rise to the commercial and technical demands of executing a job relevent to the level of certifications they hold. In some cases it's not enough, but in others they can be a great hire and grow into a role.

dave330i

N2IT wrote: »

The one I really disagree with is the last row of certifications. You think someone with 1-2 years of help desk experience and a MCITP EA or CCA Citrix looks normal? That wouldn't kick off a red flag to you?

I'm just wondering, I've been in this game for a while now and I never met anyone at that level who possessed those certifications.

I'm planning on getting VCAP-DCA after 2 years experience. My 2 years of experience is a little different than most.

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

I think we have to careful of levels here. To a large degree the work you have done and are doing does define your career prospects, but once you top out at work then what? Wait for more responsibility? One can ask for it but it isn't always forthcoming. Companies look on technical people as resource these days and if you are filling the hole they need you to fill, often that is where you will stay.

Nothing wrong with pushing yourself beyond the brief you have at work to study for and learn more advanced things, and it's a good thing that people do so as companies are not investing in training like they used to. The quality of the certification holder varies of course, as is their ability to rise to the commercial and technical demands of executing a job relevent to the level of certifications they hold. In some cases it's not enough, but in others they can be a great hire and grow into a role.

You do make some very valid points. I understand the whole concept and reality of people getting locked in roles and not being able to advance in technology. Not always, but it happens quiet a bit at least from my point of view.

I however would like to provide some other methods of moving out and up.

-Communicate make sure you you let your employer know. I wouldn't recommend doing it right away, but sometime within the first year mention that you would like to get to know a certain technology. Being decisive is critical, if you know what you want to do let your boss know.
-Volunteer your time at your job. Ask your boss or others if they can introduce you to individuals in that organization. This workforce isn't about getting promoted because you are at company x for y amount of years. It's about what value do you bring and if you can communicate and show initative you are showing value.
- Get a professional service to write your resume. No matter how good you think you are someone is better. Do your homework and find out who that someone is. Even better is finding a career coach/resume writer and interview with them and then write your resume.
- Participate in forums.
- Join organizations. If you like Project Management join PMI and go to their meetings.
- Get your bachelors degree. They are critical in today's game and if you don't have one that should be your first priority.
- Help out your community. This synchs up with volunteering but make sure you do it pro bono and help others in your community. This is a great way to network and networking on a positive premise leads to promising opportunities.

I personally feel all of these are better for someone who is trying to move ahead.

Turgon

N2IT wrote: »

You do make some very valid points. I understand the whole concept and reality of people getting locked in roles and not being able to advance in technology. Not always, but it happens quiet a bit at least from my point of view.

I however would like to provide some other methods of moving out and up.

-Communicate make sure you you let your employer know. I wouldn't recommend doing it right away, but sometime within the first year mention that you would like to get to know a certain technology. Being decisive is critical, if you know what you want to do let your boss know.
-Volunteer your time at your job. Ask your boss or others if they can introduce you to individuals in that organization. This workforce isn't about getting promoted because you are at company x for y amount of years. It's about what value do you bring and if you can communicate and show initative you are showing value.
- Get a professional service to write your resume. No matter how good you think you are someone is better. Do your homework and find out who that someone is. Even better is finding a career coach/resume writer and interview with them and then write your resume.
- Participate in forums.
- Join organizations. If you like Project Management join PMI and go to their meetings.
- Get your bachelors degree. They are critical it today's game and if you don't have one that should be your first priority.
- Help out your community. This synchs up with volunteering but make sure you do it pro bono and help others in your community. This is a great way to network and networking on a positive premise leads to promising opportunities.

I personally feel all of these are better for someone who is trying to move ahead.

Its been happening a lot in the technical genres since 2001 I can tell you that. Your advice is good. Back in the late nineties the balance of power was at the command line, but things are much more abstract now. You want that technical knowledge but also good communication skills and commercial awareness. A Technical Strategy has many drivers and just because we know how to do something doesn't mean we should do it in a given setting. Arguments have to be put forward considering all kinds of factors. Getting into more meetings and running meetings involving all kinds of stakeholders helps. You can get your head around a box. Getting your head around people, that's harder.

johnnyarks

4_lom wrote: »

CCNA is an entry level cert, and without prior experience, is likely to get you a CCENT level job. Using this theory (which has been proven right more times than not), the CCENT alone will get you nothing. Maybe it will, maybe it won't. I would at least get the CCNA before even thinking about trying to start a career in computer networking. Yes, there are people out there who are "all paper", but they can usually be weeded out with a few interview questions. Don't worry about being "all paper", just be passionate and determined about IT... like me.

You will go far, don't ever let anyone tell you that TRYING won't get you anywhere.

Disagree, I pretty much got my current job because of my CCENT.

Turgon

johnnyarks wrote: »

Disagree, I pretty much got my current job because of my CCENT.

So the CCENT did get you a job then Johnny? That's good, other wise what is the point? It's designed to be a qualification to give you an 'in'. Glad to hear it worked for you.

Roguetadhg

I've heard this argument since I started with my A+ eons ago. And it's sickening. I asked the same question, being in the shoes of trying to get my foot into the door. But I've found out, through a lot of time listening to both sides:

Certifications Versus Experiences. The bottom line is this:
1. You have qualifications proven on a very basic level with a Certification. It doesn't mean you know everything there is about a topic. This shows you have the ability to learn. Even at the most basic level, with brain ****, you've learned questions and answers... I wouldn't call it much beyond a train monkey. Im not condoning brain ****, btw.

2. With Experience: You have proven that you have a track record for maintaining a work relationship with other people all the while being able to show up on time all the while performing duties which meant you didn't get fired. You're stable.

3. You will be tested, at interviews on your Experiences and Certifications. You've worked at the highschool? What did you do at the Highschool? You have a CCIE? How was the test? What was the most difficult part about the test? Tell me how to erase VLANs from a cisco switch?

Certifications without experience tends to throw up a red flag for a reason. You don't have the exposure to get the hands-on, normally. If I got myself a CCIE: Voice, Security, R+S while only landing experience as a Tech. I sure as hell would need a good backup of "How" I got this. And this "How" will be tested by questions. This "How" will be tested at the job. If you can walk the talk, then talk all you want. Otherwise: shutup, sit down and start from scratch. (My opinion isn't aimed at anyone, just saying my own feelings about paper-certs. I loathe thee persons that wave their certs but stumble, or can't admit they don't know)


However: Besides cisco people will spend enormous amounts of money to build their own Data Center at home. You explain that you have a full-blown CCIE lab in your apartment, running working Voip to your bathroom, bedroom, all corners of the livingroom (Why get up when you can call your fiance to hand you the remote? :P). You explain to them that the network has fibre, serial, frame-relay,... They will be impressed that you did this - at your home. That's something that will, definitely, impress and set you apart.

But this is an extremist example...

Summary of what Im trying to portray:
You need the knowledge of working with whatever with your mind (studying), with your hands (Labs) and your heart (Passion) for those bad days.

NetworkingStudent

N2IT wrote: »

Let me explain. We discussed that most Comptia's certifications are introductory, even though the requirements say they aren't. So in other words you are more than okay to get these with little to no experience. How about Microsoft though and Cisco? Will these certifications bring value without experience. And even higher up, like the CCNP or the MCSE/MCITP SA.

Where I am really trying to get at is that is there a trend here. The higher the level of a certification the more critical it is to have hands on experience in that particular technology.

A+ N+ S+ CIW ITIL V3, MOS, ETC (No to little experience needed)

Windows 7, MCDST, CCENT (Some experience is a must or you will run the risk of looking like you are all paper)

MCITP SA, CCA Citrix, CCNA, VM certification (You really have to have experience or the cert doesn't mean much)

MCITP VA/EA, CCNP on up, RedHat/UNIX, ISACA (At this level you have to have experience that mirrors up to the certification or your credentials are almost deemed worthless). Someone with a CCNP and has never had a IT job would throw a huge fat red flag in my eyes. Same with the EA, I couldn't imagine a guy who 0 or less than 2 years of experience in IT with a VA or EA certification.


Thoughts?

Here’s my take…
If you keep getting certs, and have no experience you will hit a wall, were the certs will not help you gain employment. Call it a red flag, paper tiger, or whatever you want to call it, but it will become a barrier and it will not aid you in getting a job.

Certs are like degrees, anyone can get a cert and anyone can get a degree, but it takes commit, motivation, and a huge passion for learning and bettering yourself to obtain these documents. What you do after you obtain these documents is up to you. Companies and schools help you understand the material, but you must market your degree, certifications, and experience.

I forgot the guy’s name on TE, but I remember he had a CCNA and he mentioned how he brought a diagram of his home network that he laid out to the hiring manager for the job he was applying for. The hiring manager was so impressed with him, that he hired him on the spot. If you can bring diagrams or pictures, screen shots ,ect of labs, it might help you get hired, or standout.

Remember anything listed on a resume is fair game. So if you do list a cert, make sure you can talk about what you learned.

4_lom

johnnyarks wrote: »

Disagree, I pretty much got my current job because of my CCENT.

Thats great man. But might I also add that you live in a place where networking jobs are plentiful. I live in rural Indiana, my theory is based on my own experience, so yeah it's not going to be right 100% of the time. No theory can, that's why it's a theory, and not a fact. Any ways, I'm glad the CCENT actually did something for you. I once had an interview for a break/fix job, and the owner told me that the certs/education that I have got me the interview, but my military influence (ROTC) got me the job (he was an Air Force guy). It all depends on the person, time, situation, etc.

FloOz

I agree with you N2IT. No one should have high level certs such as the ccnp with little actual experience. I feel like the value of the cert is brought down because of it. And as you said it is not good for anyone to be "all paper"

Hypntick

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

Here’s my take…

I forgot the guy’s name on TE, but I remember he had a CCNA and he mentioned how he brought a diagram of his home network that he laid out to the hiring manager for the job he was applying for. The hiring manager was so impressed with him, that he hired him on the spot. If you can bring diagrams or pictures, screen shots ,ect of labs, it might help you get hired, or standout.

This right here is big, it's one of the first questions we ask an interviewee where I work. Do you have a home lab? My boss is huge on this, if you don't have a home lab of some sort, how are you going to grow as an IT professional? After talking to a few of the other guys up here about their phone interviews, theirs lasted 15-30 minutes, mine lasted 5. As soon as I mentioned that I have a home lab setup with multiple server 08 VMs running in a domain, he asked a good time to do a face to face.

I'm not saying it's going to help in all cases, but in an organization that actually values self motivation it more than likely will.

pert

pruspeter wrote: »

I agree with you N2IT. No one should have high level certs such as the ccnp with little actual experience. I feel like the value of the cert is brought down because of it. And as you said it is not good for anyone to be "all paper"

I find this attitude really, really dumb.

You should get any cert you can if you're interested and you can accomplish it without cheating. Learn all you can, people don't get the NP until they have a few years experience because they lack the desire, drive, or scholarship to do it earlier. Having a NP without experience doesn't make you a paper tiger. Having an NP without having NP knowledge makes you a paper tiger.

Seriously, it takes a knowledgeable person 10-15minutes of interviewing to judge someone skill level. What you guys so worried about?

P.S. It's almost impossible for people to break into networking nowdays. It's hard to even get an interview for an entry level position without an NA. Also, there are very few places you can actually find an entry position and you will be competing with people who already have experience. Don't close doors based on stigma of people who cheated their certs. If you can pass it legitimately go for it.

mayhem87

I as well call bs on the CCNP with little experience.

I am gaining mine because I have a passion for networking. I am not expecting to be put into a job that commands a high salary and years of experience. Although I would hope that because I put in the time to get the cert I would be valued over someone with little experience that has a CCNA.

Only reason I am primarily going for it is because I had a thirst for more knowledge in networking. If you can't get hands on experience then whats the harm in going for the cert? Sorry but I'm certainly not going to study what Cisco deems as things CCNP should know and not take a crack at it. At least your showing your still motivated to learn and not just getting it because your required to.

I love it so much in fact I am transitioning my lab so I can vpn into it from work and lab during slow times.

N2IT

mayhem87 wrote: »

I as well call bs on the CCNP with little experience.

I am gaining mine because I have a passion for networking. I am not expecting to be put into a job that commands a high salary and years of experience. Although I would hope that because I put in the time to get the cert I would be valued over someone with little experience that has a CCNA.

Only reason I am primarily going for it is because I had a thirst for more knowledge in networking. If you can't get hands on experience then whats the harm in going for the cert? Sorry but I'm certainly not going to study what Cisco deems as things CCNP should know and not take a crack at it. At least your showing your still motivated to learn and not just getting it because your required to.

I love it so much in fact I am transitioning my lab so I can vpn into it from work and lab during slow times.

Who says you need a certification to learn and love the technology. I have found most of the true technologst that "love" technology don't get certs anyway. They do what they have to do to meet those requirements and they are out. They "love" it as much as you do, but they don't feel the need to certify themselves. They just do it and learn it.

Getting pro level certifications is for professionals, people who work in the industry actually work in the industry and utilize that technology. A new generalist in IT 2 or less years should not be taking these exams. They are for pros who have been doing this work for a while.

I follow this school of thought. I grabbed some comptia certifications in the beginning to show competency and then when I started getting into service management I began to hone my skills and started doing some of the higher level ITIL exams. It synched up with my profession and experience.

Turgon

pert wrote: »

I find this attitude really, really dumb.

You should get any cert you can if you're interested and you can accomplish it without cheating. Learn all you can, people don't get the NP until they have a few years experience because they lack the desire, drive, or scholarship to do it earlier. Having a NP without experience doesn't make you a paper tiger. Having an NP without having NP knowledge makes you a paper tiger.

Seriously, it takes a knowledgeable person 10-15minutes of interviewing to judge someone skill level. What you guys so worried about?

P.S. It's almost impossible for people to break into networking nowdays. It's hard to even get an interview for an entry level position without an NA. Also, there are very few places you can actually find an entry position and you will be competing with people who already have experience. Don't close doors based on stigma of people who cheated their certs. If you can pass it legitimately go for it.

I agree. There is nothing wrong with pushing yourself to learn things you may not yet have access to in the field, it can help get you there.

N2IT

Turgon wrote: »

I agree. There is nothing wrong with pushing yourself to learn things you may not yet have access to in the field, it can help get you there.

Agreed but it doesn't mean it has to be followed by a certification.

Turgon

It doesn't have to, but if a certification provides structure and syllabus for a trainee I see that as a very positive thing. Had I not taken on CCNP in 2001 and CCIE written in 2001 I would have been lost in RFCs, which I also read, but still...

mayhem87

N2IT wrote: »

Who says you need a certification to learn and love the technology. I have found most of the true technologst that "love" technology don't get certs anyway. They do what they have to do to meet those requirements and they are out. They "love" it as much as you do, but they don't feel the need to certify themselves. They just do it and learn it. Getting pro level certifications is for professionals, people who work in the industry actually work in the industry and utilize that technology. A new generalist in IT 2 or less years should not be taking these exams. They are for pros who have been doing this work for a while. I follow this school of thought. I grabbed some comptia certifications in the beginning to show competency and then when I started getting into service management I began to hone my skills and started doing some of the higher level ITIL exams. It synched up with my profession and experience.

And I would argue that I have met some of these "pros" and that have been in the field for awhile and they aren't very "pro" at all. If I'm learning and following a set structure then why not go for it? Why would you gain the knowledge and cut yourself short? Plus as I stated earlier it will show that I have that much more knowledge over another entry level person. I have no shame in saying its a "paper cert" if you will since I will have little to no experience. If there was no cert path I would be like Turgon said lost. I am one for structure and the exams give that.