When is it okay to get a cert and when is it not?

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

Who says you need a certification to learn and love the technology. I have found most of the true technologst that "love" technology don't get certs anyway. They do what they have to do to meet those requirements and they are out. They "love" it as much as you do, but they don't feel the need to certify themselves. They just do it and learn it.

Getting pro level certifications is for professionals, people who work in the industry actually work in the industry and utilize that technology. A new generalist in IT 2 or less years should not be taking these exams. They are for pros who have been doing this work for a while.

I follow this school of thought. I grabbed some comptia certifications in the beginning to show competency and then when I started getting into service management I began to hone my skills and started doing some of the higher level ITIL exams. It synched up with my profession and experience.

You want to take the Bar examination? Not so fast, rookie! You need to become a lawyer first!

Sigh. Guys, this field is difficult enough to break into as it stands now, why handicap others? Afraid of the competition? If not, then what's the big deal?

N2IT

YFZblu wrote: »

You want to take the Bar examination? Not so fast, rookie! You need to become a lawyer first!

Sigh. Guys, this field is difficult enough to break into as it stands now, why handicap others? Afraid of the competition? If not, then what's the big deal?

Handicap others how? By encouraging them to spend thousands of dollars on certifications that will do nothing for you unless you have experience to go along with it. If I wanted to steer people wrong I would jump on board with your theory.

Your education and experience are running parallal together through out your career. If you get one to far out in front of the other you could potentially be wasting efforts. The best return on knowledge and investment is to keep them as synched as possible. Having your EA or CCNP and having 1 years of experience or none is rediculous.

Besides how is competition related to certifications? Competition in the work place is driven by people who add value through delivery. Not by how many certification you can place on your resume or signature block.

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

Handicap others how? By encouraging them to spend thousands of dollars on certifications that will do nothing for you unless you have experience to go along with it. If I wanted to steer people wrong I would jump on board with your theory.

Your education and experience are running parallal together through out your career. If you get one to far out in front of the other you could potentially be wasting efforts. The best return on knowledge and investment is to keep them as synched as possible. Having your EA or CCNP and having 1 years of experience or none is rediculous.

Besides how is competition related to certifications? Competition in the work place is driven by people who add value through delivery. Not by how many certification you can place on your resume or signature block.

LOL My theory? I simply see nothing wrong with someone trying to force the issue with a high level certification. If an individual legitimately earns a CCNP with no paid experience in networking but can demonstrate comprehension and ability, then they have earned the title and deserve the respect that comes with it.

People earn degrees to get jobs, I don't think certification should be viewed any differently. Keep in mind my path was similar to yours in the fact that my education and experience have gone hand-in-hand up to this point. I put my time in. But in the end we all know there is no golden ticket in this industry and everyone's path is different--I will definitely not be scoffing at a 'paper' CCNP just because he/she didn't do it the way I think it should be done.

N2IT

YFZblu wrote: »

LOL My theory? I simply see nothing wrong with someone trying to force the issue with a high level certification. If an individual legitimately earns a CCNP with no paid experience in networking but can demonstrate comprehension and ability, then they have earned the title and deserve the respect that comes with it.

People earn degrees to get jobs, I don't think certification should be viewed any differently. Keep in mind my path was similar to yours in the fact that my education and experience have gone hand-in-hand up to this point. I put my time in. But in the end we all know there is no golden ticket in this industry and everyone's path is different--I will definitely not be scoffing at a 'paper' CCNP just because he/she didn't do it the way I think it should be done.

All I can refer back to is experience. I have been in 6-7 different environments in an IT capacity and up into this point degrees and experience has been the biggest factor for employees moving up. Don't get me wrong certifications are a solid number 2, but imo they are number 2. I think if you are on a helpdesk and you are going for a CCNA that's a GOOD thing. I also think self improvement is a wonderful thing, more people should do it. I just would hate to see someone get their hopes crushed because they went wild on certifications and wonder why they can't get a mid level job. Hell they might be next to the highschool drop out with no certs if this is their first IT job.

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

All I can refer back to is experience. I have been in 6-7 different environments in an IT capacity and up into this point degrees and experience has been the biggest factor for employees moving up. Don't get me wrong certifications are a solid number 2, but imo they are number 2. I think if you are on a helpdesk and you are going for a CCNA that's a GOOD thing. I also think self improvement is a wonderful thing, more people should do it. I just would hate to see someone get their hopes crushed because they went wild on certifications and wonder why they can't get a mid level job. Hell they might be next to the highschool drop out with no certs if this is their first IT job.

It's funny--When I worked helpdesk (my first IT job) I actually did find out the guy I sat next to was a HS dropout with no prior experience. We all go through different challenges in life and my intentions are not to demean that person; however when I found out it certainly lit a fire under my ass to get certified and create value for myself relatively quickly. I suppose that's part of the reason I think if a newbie wants to go all in on a big-time cert, more power to him/her.

dave330i

N2IT wrote: »

Handicap others how? By encouraging them to spend thousands of dollars on certifications that will do nothing for you unless you have experience to go along with it. If I wanted to steer people wrong I would jump on board with your theory.

Your education and experience are running parallal together through out your career. If you get one to far out in front of the other you could potentially be wasting efforts. The best return on knowledge and investment is to keep them as synched as possible. Having your EA or CCNP and having 1 years of experience or none is rediculous.

Besides how is competition related to certifications? Competition in the work place is driven by people who add value through delivery. Not by how many certification you can place on your resume or signature block.

Not all experiences are the same. There are people who are more driven and/or learn faster than others.

N2IT

dave330i wrote: »

Not all experiences are the same. There are people who are more driven and/or learn faster than others.

While this may be true, I think some of us think we learn faster than we really do.

***This is not pointed at you or any particular TE member.

N2IT

YFZblu wrote: »

It's funny--When I worked helpdesk (my first IT job) I actually did find out the guy I sat next to was a HS dropout with no prior experience. We all go through different challenges in life and my intentions are not to demean that person; however when I found out it certainly lit a fire under my ass to get certified and create value for myself relatively quickly. I suppose that's part of the reason I think if a newbie wants to go all in on a big-time cert, more power to him/her.

I agree I am not ragging on high school drop outs, I'm sure some have brillant minds. Successful ones are smarter and advance through the educational system to quickly. I think those are few and far between, but still relavent.

I'll get granular to show my point. Some people cert to cert, which is fine if you want to be paper. If you want to learn then you should not only read exam passing material you should also read books relating to the field or technology. I see so many people looking for the best way to pass an exam. Why not look for the best way to learn the material first? Isn't that really what it's all about? If you just want to pass the exam why not **** it? If the only thing you care about is getting those letters the **** it. Personally for me I want to know the material well. I don't want to be a chump in an interview who gets exposed for his lack of advertised experiences.

***Disclaimer I am not glorfying dumping I am just using it to make a point.

Remember kids **** are for chump.

higherho

I see your point N2IT and I agree with a lot of it. This is why Hiring managers should be very technical and hold certain levels of certifications (and have the experience to back it up) to weed out the fakers.

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

I agree I am not ragging on high school drop outs, I'm sure some have brillant minds. Successful ones are smarter and advance through the educational system to quickly. I think those are few and far between, but still relavent.

I'll get granular to show my point. Some people cert to cert, which is fine if you want to be paper. If you want to learn then you should not only read exam passing material you should also read books relating to the field or technology. I see so many people looking for the best way to pass an exam. Why not look for the best way to learn the material first? Isn't that really what it's all about? If you just want to pass the exam why not **** it? If the only thing you care about is getting those letters the **** it. Personally for me I want to know the material well. I don't want to be a chump in an interview who gets exposed for his lack of advertised experiences.

***Disclaimer I am not glorfying dumping I am just using it to make a point.

Remember kids **** are for chump.

Another point to be made here is that non-technical HR employees have a hand in this as well. Not all of them, but a lot of them. IMO nobody should be asking for CCNA or MCITP:EA certs if they're hiring helpdesk L1 personnel. Does anyone remember the infamous Jr. Network Admin job that was posted on dice? "CCIE preferred". Jesus.

N2IT

YFZblu wrote: »

Another point to be made here is that non-technical HR employees have a hand in this as well. Not all of them, but a lot of them. IMO nobody should be asking for CCNA or MCITP:EA certs if they're hiring helpdesk L1 personnel. Does anyone remember the infamous Jr. Network Admin job that was posted on dice? "CCIE preferred". Jesus.

I don't remember that one, but we have had a few job descriptions posted around here from the job boards that are similar to that.

The one that rings a bell is the tier 1 helpdesk one with MCSE and CCNP experience required with a Computer Science degree.

QHalo

YFZblu wrote: »

Another point to be made here is that non-technical HR employees have a hand in this as well. Not all of them, but a lot of them. IMO nobody should be asking for CCNA or MCITP:EA certs if they're hiring helpdesk L1 personnel. Does anyone remember the infamous Jr. Network Admin job that was posted on dice? "CCIE preferred". Jesus.

Eh, you can't really lump all of those issues into the non-technical HR employees. I would venture to say that a majority of job descriptions come from the hiring manager and are given to HR.