I know its against the forum principles...

tpatt100

Devilry wrote: »

It has always been one of my frowned upon things with this forum, lots of users here are so stubbornly stuck on titles, it's the same crowd who focuses on fan-boi clothing brands and thinks there's are better because the name is smeared all across it.

I remember years ago at my first IT job people were sitting around bickering about titles, it was funny. The contracting company had made some fancy titles probably for billing purposes and to allow enough wiggle room salary wise for bidding, who know? I think the title thing is when your first starting out or trying to get noticed. When I was hired here they asked me what I wanted for a title since I was just hired into the "IS Department" and "Accounting" since I had a duel role. I could care less and picked some generic titile of IT Auditor. I think any HR person hiring would see my roles and responsibilities and can figure out what I do.

networker050184

tpatt100 wrote: »

I still don't understand what these "engineers designing stuff" are actually doing? No matter where you work your supporting "somebody" or "something". I don't know of a lot of positions in IT where you are not supporting something or other. Sys admins still get elevated calls that end up requring them to call somebody if something breaks that is out of their area of expertise. Are we talking about people sitting around working on a Linux kernel for a network appliance vs a level 3 support engineer for that network appliance that talks to a sys admin?

When I was having issues with Checkpoint Provider-1 and I put in a support ticket and somebody from Checkpoint calls me to troubleshoot and requests some files and then calls me back, how is that not support yet how is this guy not an "engineer" because he is fixng a problem?

We are talking about the people that design and engineer solutions. This process would roughly go with you starting from an initial design (or improvement) and come up with the concepts. Research products for this solution. Research power and other environmental considerations for the chosen products. Build a test mock of the solution for proof of concept. If all goes well, plan the implementation. Then sit back and watch it work.

So once you hire someone to do all these tasks you need to hire someone to support it all. Some of these same roles may be shared in smaller shops, but if you are working on any kind of scale its impractical to have someone do both. There are usually a greater number of "less technical" individuals hired to support a solution designed by a smaller number of "technical experts." It doesn't make business sense to higher a bunch of experts when a properly built solution can be supported by less technical people.

tpatt100

networker050184 wrote: »

We are talking about the people that design and engineer solutions. This process would roughly go with you starting from an initial design (or improvement) and come up with the concepts. Research products for this solution. Research power and other environmental considerations for the chosen products. Build a test mock of the solution for proof of concept. If all goes well, plan the implementation. Then sit back and watch it work.

So once you hire someone to do all these tasks you need to hire someone to support it all. Some of these same roles may be shared in smaller shops, but if you are working on any kind of scale its impractical to have someone do both. There are usually a greater number of "less technical" individuals hired to support a solution designed by a smaller number of "technical experts." It doesn't make business sense to higher a bunch of experts when a properly built solution can be supported by less technical people.

Is this an actual job you are experienced with or something you think exists? Because this sounds like a contractor positon. We hire them they provide consulting services and then they go and try to peddle their services elsewhere for somebody else. Those jobs were kind of flaky because the consultants were all over the place and work was here and there.

Unless you are referring to something a the top of the chain but I am not sure those jobs are near as plentiful as everything else below it.

Devilry

Pretty odd how someone can come into a thread that is meant to be positive for people now and in the future to read, and you have disgruntled little people who just have to put a negative spin on anything and have to piss on someones parade, these are the type who are probably burnt out and unhappy with everything. See what the title name game does to someone?

Get a good job, good pay, benefits and at hopefully makes you happy, that's all that should matter.

I'd like to relate it to the difference of a pornstar who makes bundles of cash here and there and a stay at home mom who does it for happiness. They both get puked on, one dies happy, one dies of a disease.

networker050184

tpatt100 wrote: »

Is this an actual job you are experienced with or something you think exists? Because this sounds like a contractor positon. We hire them they provide consulting services and then they go and try to peddle their services elsewhere for somebody else. Those jobs were kind of flaky because the consultants were all over the place and work was here and there.

Unless you are referring to something a the top of the chain but I am not sure those jobs are near as plentiful as everything else below it.

Yes this is what I do, and not as a contractor.

networker050184

Devilry wrote: »

Pretty odd how someone can come into a thread that is meant to be positive for people now and in the future to read, and you have disgruntled little people who just have to put a negative spin on anything and have to piss on someones parade, these are the type who are probably burnt out and unhappy with everything. See what the title name game does to someone?

Get a good job, good pay, benefits and at hopefully makes you happy, that's all that should matter.

I'd like to relate it to the difference of a pornstar who makes bundles of cash here and there and a stay at home mom who does it for happiness. They both get puked on, one dies happy, one dies of a disease.

No ones being negative, but these boards are for discussion. You stated your success story without certifications. I just suggested you could have possibly had more (my opinion something beyond helpdesk = more) success if you would have obtained some certifications along the way. You don't need to take a discussion, especially on a forum, as a personal attack.

Good luck!

tpatt100

networker050184 wrote: »

No ones being negative, but these boards are for discussion. You stated your success story without certifications. I just suggested you could have possibly had more (my opinion something beyond helpdesk = more) success if you would have obtained some certifications along the way. You don't need to take a discussion, especially on a forum, as a personal attack.

Good luck!

You really didn't realize your original post to the OP would be considered rude?

Hey everybody I got a new job and a bigger paycheck.

Oh nice, oh yeah grats but that's not something I would like to do.

And people wonder why IT people have a stereotype of big egos and poor people skills.

Devilry

tpatt100 wrote: »

You really didn't realize your original post to the OP would be considered rude?

Hey everybody I got a new job and a bigger paycheck.

Oh nice, oh yeah grats but that's not something I would like to do.

And people wonder why IT people have a stereotype of big egos and poor people skills.

+1


Want to really succeed in this profession? Get some sunlight and happiness in ya!

networker050184

I hoped that we could have a decent conversation about the degree of success without certifications. That is the point of a discussion forum after all.

tpatt100

Devilry wrote: »

+1


Want to really succeed in this profession? Get some sunlight and happiness in ya!

" When someone says "No Offense", You know they're about to offend you"

Roguetadhg

tpatt100 wrote: »

And people wonder why IT people have a stereotype of big egos and poor people skills.

Big egos? Nah.
Poor People skills? Yep.

I've learned to hate people in my job. People that know a little bit of computerz skills = "I can fix the problem". Where I find a ticket later for a problem that was caused because the original problem wasn't fixed.

Fun times.

N2IT

it_consultant wrote: »

I regularly run into people who have not one lick of certification or college education in IT who are regular ninjas when it comes to IT. Provided you can get your resume passed the goon squad (HR), I don't even look at certs or education. I can tell by reading your resume and talking to you whether or not you have the skill to do the job.

I have, unfortunately, seen the opposite happen far to often;

Them "What do you mean he/she can't do x or y?"
Me "Well, they have 1.5 years of IT experience, what do you expect?"
Them "He/she has a master's degree in whatever!"
Me "So?"

I've seen this before, but usually they have something. One cert or a degree. Something, but I have seen it happen as well.

paul78

networker050184 wrote: »

I hoped that we could have a decent conversation about the degree of success without certifications. That is the point of a discussion forum after all.

Does having certifications really matter to ones success? At least in the US, it has always seemed to me that it was hard work that advanced ones career. Getting a cert is hard work but doesnt gurantee success. And besides everyones talent potential varies. Certs are equated with skill, not talent.

SteveLord

paul78 wrote: »

Does having certifications really matter to ones success? At least in the US, it has always seemed to me that it was hard work that advanced ones career. Getting a cert is hard work but doesnt gurantee success. And besides everyones talent potential varies. Certs are equated with skill, not talent.

Agreed, but this is stating the obvious/beating dead horse. I think we're all intelligent/mature/experienced enough to realize this.

KPLC

SteveLord wrote: »

Agreed, but this is stating the obvious/beating dead horse. I think we're all intelligent/mature/experienced enough to realize this.

I know you are, but what am I? All in good fun.

gbadman

tpatt100 wrote: »

I still don't understand what these "engineers designing stuff" are actually doing? No matter where you work your supporting "somebody" or "something". I don't know of a lot of positions in IT where you are not supporting something or other.

This could only possibly be accurate if Service Providers did not exist. The OP's achievement is to be commended, and I'm adding to that now. However the ensuing discussion should not be seen as an attack or defence of anyone or anything. Just an expression of perspectives. And I find it quite insightful because, as is often the case, people's comments say at least as much about them and where they're coming from, as it does about the issue under discussion.

I would imagine that networker050184 works in the service provider space. Network Engineers in the enterprise space do not generally "design" solutions (at least they are doing so less and less). That's what MSPs are for. So it's understandable that someone who's always worked in that world can't conceive of a situation where network design work is as commonplace as air.

An MSP often has a department dedicated to support of the solutions it has provided. This department might have layers 1,2,3, much like an enterprise network department. Then there is often another department of solution engineers, whose job it is to provide the solutions, not support them. This department might also have different layers of expertise, from engineers with more of a design focus, to those who carry out the daily grind of carrying out the branch migrations for a certain enterprise customer.
Then beyond that you'd probably have a department dedicated to designing the solutions, made up entirely of network architects.

All of these professionals are just as busy as each other. So you see, these "engineers designing stuff" do quite a bit. And no, they do not usually support anything.

buzzkill

Devilry wrote: »

haha I hear ya. I remember before I hired a guy at my current place to take some work load off me. He had a masters from a location well known school. had certifications that took up almost a page, HR made the mistake of hiring him.

Day one: I asked him to add some new users, he said 'no problem, you mind showing me once, and I will do it on my own from there?' ... needless to say.. didnt make it a week.

You say you hired him, but then you later say HR hired him. Which is it? If it's you then I would say that you failed at your interviewing duties. You hired a completely inappropriate person for the role. If it was HR then why do you say you hired them, or is it because of your self aggrandizement and wanting to project yourself as a manager (level III ?) who hires and fires?

networker050184

paul78 wrote: »

Does having certifications really matter to ones success? At least in the US, it has always seemed to me that it was hard work that advanced ones career. Getting a cert is hard work but doesnt gurantee success. And besides everyones talent potential varies. Certs are equated with skill, not talent.

Certifications do matter or no one would be on this forum or interested in getting them. Are they the end all of finding a good job? No, but to say they do not matter to ones success in this field is very inaccurate IMO. Its the same as the degree argument. Can you find a successful job without one? Sure, but that doesn't mean a degree doesn't matter at all.

erpadmin

networker050184 wrote: »

Certifications do matter or no one would be on this forum or interested in getting them.

Many moons ago, back when I was gunning for A+ and Network+ I existed under another name here (I didn't remember the name until much after.) I was very excited that I had completed my requirements for A+ and Network+ so that I can go for my MCSA and later on MCSE. A wise and respected forum member back then had stated that while certifications were important, a college degree was always something to shoot for. It puzzled me why this forum member would state this as this board was more about IT certifications...however, I came to understand that this forum member was wise because I started to see for myself how more valuable a degree was to increase one's standing in his/her career in IT.

While I was always on the experience side of the certs vs. education vs. experience argument, I had always had education on my mind while increasing my own experience (and later certs.) In fact, it wasn't until I was searching for a legitimate place to get my online degree that I ended up back here (because as another respected forum member stated....this place is a "google whore." LOL.)

So who was this forum member that placed education over certs? It was this guy...., who put it in my head (and perhaps many others) that it wasn't just about certs. That's why we have IT Jobs/Degrees discussions.

Yes, certifications do matter in IT, and it's not the end all and be all of an IT career. However, if one is going to increase their career in IT, you hit a glass ceiling, and not a glass ceiling in the traditional sense that you're a woman or a minority. But someone who has just a HS diploma, and a high aptitude in PC repair isn't going to be a leader in his field unless he's got the resources Bill Gates had before he started MS and breaks out on his own. (The Gates family was already rich before Microsoft even existed.)

This forum has already transcended "just certs." I will always contend that while certs are something to shoot for, they're not the end all and be all of one's career.

Webmaster

As a general comment towards the contents of this thread, this is why I use words like typically, usually, generally, mostly, "pretty much", etc, a lot, typically. I'd prefer not to, but it seems otherwise things are taken a bit black-and-white. There are usually exceptions, there's usually a gray area especially in the less technically discussions like this.

I have no doubt a help desk III job can be a challenging and interesting position (help desk is a skill by itself that can be done on a high level), but isn't it likely the OP would have had more open doors on his career path if he had a bunch of popular IT certifications, as in more chances of moving "up", or getting the current position a year sooner? It seems this is a discussion about the value of certifications for one's career and in general help desk is not somewhere most people visiting TE aim to be on the long run.

Regardless, just because it's possible doesn't mean it's recommendable or necessarily efficient. That goes for not getting a degree too.

erpadmin wrote:

So who was this forum member that placed education over certs? It was this guy....,

I detected someone using the signal. Certs and "education" are pretty much synonymous to me. I know, you are referring to traditional education / a degree in particular, and placing one "over" the other is not entirely what I said, but in any case they are imo not mutual exclusive and one does not substitute the other. I.e. when you already have a degree it doesn't mean getting certs is less useful, and if you already have a bunch of certs a degree can still be a very valuable addition.

erpadmin wrote:

had stated that while certifications were important, a degree was always something to shoot for.

I should have added a "typically" in there as well if I actually said "always", as there are obvious exceptions. Many people are already in a good position, one they want to be and stay in, through experience and/or certs and won't directly benefit from a degree. But yes I do think anyone should go for a degree if they have the opportunity to do so (time and money). Not saying it's needed to succeed in IT, but I think it's best to make career plans on the assumption of a very competitive market making a degree a worthy long-term investment.

Regardless of the job, everything else being roughly equal, having a degree is usually a plus. It doesn't really matter how we feel about it though, it's all in the eye of the beholder (the person interviewing/recruiting) and anyone doubting the value of either certifications and/or degrees, put yourself in the position of someone doing the hiring and comparing resumes. Whether one actually is more valuable than the other for a particular position depends on many factors and circumstances (amount and relevancy of experience for example).

That said, the motivation for starting TE is primarily because certs have opened up a lot of doors for me while I have no degree - I basically quit school when I was 19, found it to be a complete waste of time as I was bound to learn mostly stuff I thought I was never going to need, at least that's what I told myself. I educated myself through certs (self study), went from help desk/support -> sys admin -> IT/Exchange consultant -> project leader with several jobs/titles in between. Certs have played a huge role in that path, simply wouldn't have happened without them.

Eventually my employer back then promoted me to "trainer/coach" (speaking of job titles...) to teach coworkers (including people with a BS degree but no/less certs) to do the same. I didn't find my "students" very motivated to really learn, so I figured I try and see if I can find like-minded techies online (in particular those interested in not only the cert but also to educate themselves, and/or others), and here we are, because certs can matter that much.

WGU's approach and popularity also says something about the value and necessity of certifications (without comparing it to a degree at all). Education and experience have something in common, more usually really is "more" (better).

erpadmin wrote:

this place is a "google whore."

Ah yes, I figured someone would quote that "member" on that eventually, but for the record, it's the other way around, Google is a TE **** (reminder to self to expand censor filter), it visits us twice a second and is our most active lurker.

I guess it's obvious why I don't Twitter...

erpadmin

Always the voice of reason, , even and especially when these type of discussions can get pretty heated. It's why I participate in these discussions because, I too, like being with likeminded people. Just like in real life, I don't always agree with everyone here, but I can always respect where they're coming from (within reason) at the end of the day.

Earweed was right though...that emoticon really is your bat signal. LOL.

Ch@rl!3m0ng

Devilry wrote: »

Want to really succeed in this profession? Get some sunlight and happiness in ya!

To The OP congrats on New Job.

Though I have to say this comment made me smile Sunlight lol we work in IT and it burns our skin!!!