Thoughts on Harvard Extension School?

bmy78

Hi everyone,

I've been researching various graduate programs in IT/IS and I've stumbled across Harvard University's Extension School. They offer a "Master of Liberal Arts" in Information Technology that looks really intriguing. I was wondering if anyone took any courses there (either online or on campus) and wanted to hear your thoughts. I'm wondering how this program compares to a traditional graduate program. I'm looking at NJIT for IS, though it doesn't seem nearly as technical as HES's. Thoughts?

Some positives I've noticed:
1. They seem to effectively balance theory with practical application. They have courses in the theory of computation and such but also courses in "building mobile applications" and such.
2. (Almost all) of the required coursework can be completed online, and the tools used for online study seem excellent. Web sites, homework, lectured recordings seem really professional. The caveat is that you have to remain in residence for one semester, though this can be completed during the summer session.
3. Courses really seem to want you to build a project at the end. This seems like I will have lots of things to talk about come graduation.

Some concerns:
1. The degree is technically a ALM (or a Master of Liberal Arts) -- not an MS. Will employers worry about this? I think if I can sell the various classes and the projects completed I think they wouldn't worry about this.
2. It's "Harvard Extension" -- not Harvard College, or Harvard GSAS, HBS, etc. People might think I'm trying pass myself as some sort of elitist. Would techies be turned off by this?
3. Is a degree in IS "technical", or is it primarily lots of flow diagrams, charts, UML, and use case scenarios and such? I'm trying to explore other graduate programs, but HES seems to be an open book--many course web sites, syllabi, even past problem sets / homework assignments are fully viewable. I feel like I know what I'm getting into. In other schools, I basically just have access to descriptions, maybe the syllabus (if I'm lucky). I'm not exactly sure will a graduate IS degree will lead me in comparison to the ALM IT from HES.

Thoughts?

extension.harvard.edu

tpatt100

That looks pretty interesting. Ok that is VERY interesting but the "residency" requirement is going to make it extremely difficult for most people. Having to take a leave of absence from work to go to the school to take one class will hurt big time.

I might do something like this down the road if I save up enough money to pay for it out of pocket and have an employer willing to let me take a leave of absence for a summer to fulfill the residency requirement.

N2IT

Very nice post!

jdancer

It depends on you program of study. I believe the NY Times did an article on on HES. They mentioned a graduate of the program who is a information systems auditor who works for a big consulting firm. The consultant definitely knows her stuff and the client was impressed with her knowledge.

I am sure HES program of studies are academically rigorous. Guess it doesn't hurt it's from Harvard University.

bmy78

From what I've read, the program does seem really rigorous. I'm looking to change careers from a non-IT field, so I'm looking for something that will seriously improve my IT skills.

There are several concentrations: software engineering, info. management systems, digital arts & media, and a math/computation field. Technically, the degree is a Master of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies in the field of Information Technology with a concentration in software engineering, etc. But I think the name is more reflective of the university's internal politics more than anything else, since this is a technical program (I don't have to take courses in early 20th century Bavarian film, or whatever). Honestly, if one can sell the program and show what they've done, I think it wouldn't matter.

The admissions process is quite unique: take 3 courses and earn a B or better in each. If so, you're pretty much in. Though I hear the courses can be really tough.

I'm just wondering how a program like this compares to other graduate IS programs. This seems more technical, perhaps even more rigorous, and therefore worth much more.

N2IT

jdancer exactly

I wouldn't have the time to handle the amount of time and dedication to that program. I am bailing on my masters degree as it is. I just don't have the time or patience, this would really do me in. I have my bachelors that's it for me.

jaclynn

I am currently a student in the Information Management Systems track (applicant to ALM). To address your questions and concerns from my perspective...

1. They do effectively balance theory and application. I can't say enough about the courses.; they are rigorous and excellent. I have taken CSCI E-131B, E-30, E-12 and E-170. You can attend the courses live remotely or watch recordings later. The benefit for live viewing is obviously the opportunity to ask questions in the chat room (or elluminate forum, depending).

2. Assignments are online and typically submitted through email. However, many assignments involve working on their remote web and database servers under your account. You learn by doing. Tests are either open-book or administered through a proxy. As for the residence requirement, yes you can complete that during the summer, but here are the caveats: If you are in the Information Management Systems track, they want you to take the capstone on campus, and that capstone is only offered Fall and Spring sessions (at this time). I imagine the other capstone tracks have the same issue. Secondly, summer courses are administered through Harvard Summer School and are significantly more expensive. I did inquire about what "residency" means and it seems I can meet that requirement by appearing for class once per week (I'm a long train ride or short plane ride away).

3. You will be an expert by graduation. Courses are taught by Harvard instructors who are current and published in their fields.

Your concerns:

1. In most tech jobs, no. There is such a variety of people working in tech. One of the best I know has a degree in music. My bachelors degree in comp sci is a BA and it has not hurt me at all. Scientific or engineering positions would probably be more particular though.

2. To me, the people who try to discredit the HES students appear more elitist. That said, there is definitely some negativity out there towards HES, particularly among other Harvard schools. I'm sure it stems from the fact that the courses are open admission and reasonably priced. It's a shame, because while the courses are open admission the graduate admission is not. I'm not in the program to put "Harvard" on my resume (although that is quite a nice benefit). I'm in because the education is top-notch, affordable and convenient. If I have the privilege of putting the ALM on my resume someday, I will be sure to follow it with "Extension School" for full disclosure, and also because I'm proud to do so.

3. You are correct. The ALM IT program is "open book" in that you can find loads of information ahead of taking any particular course. Some, such as the ones taught by David Malan, are part of open courseware, and you can view the entire thing ahead of time.

To conclude, I have not regretted my decision to attend HES and I'm hoping to attain degree candidate status eventually, if they'll have me. Even if they don't, I don't think I would stop attending; I'm learning too much. I also want to add that their academic advisement is very responsive and helpful. You can feel very confident about choosing HES.

N2IT

That sounds really awesome! I'm genuinely excited for you, that sounds like a great opportunity!

After bailing on my MBA program, I would never engage in a Masters program, but I would take some one off courses to strengthen my educational portfolio. I am way to ADHD for a degree program, but can easily handle a course or two.

tpatt100

Thanks for the information jaclynn

@N2IT: Yeah if I get work close to home some day I will more than likely just take a class here and there at our local community college and work towards one of the professional certificates.

qwertyiop

I was looking at them even before my graduating from WGU in 2010 or my MSIA from Davenport.

Once class that I would really like to take from them is Introduction to C, Unix/Linux Programming, and Web Interfaces | Harvard Extension School
I kinda wish that they had a similar course online or closer to me as traffic into the city just sucks


I'm a pretty heavy linux user but want a good intro to C to learn more about the backend.

bmy78

Thank you jaclynn for your thorough reply. The more I look at the program, the more I get excited about it. Please keep us updated about your progress.

I too am a short plane trip away from Boston. Certainly doable and less expensive than a summer session. Hmmm...

I also notice on the website that they've started to offer a prof certificate in software engineering. That might be up my alley. Yet another thing to consider, though I don't have the math experience.

So many decisions, so little time.

N2IT

@ Tpatt

I agree I love community college courses. I took a VB and 3 SQL courses at the community college. Barely cost me a dime, but really strengthened my development knowledge. I'd like to take a few more courses eventually. Some front end development courses once I get done with my RMP.

I'm getting way to business heavy and need to hit the breaks a little bit.

BTW I stayed with my MBA : ) lol

powerfool

I think that the program is fine, especially when you consider what options are out there for mostly-distance programs. However, don't try to pull the wool over peoples' eyes if you graduate from this; people in-the-know are fully aware that this program is not part of the highly respected colleges with within Harvard, like HBS. The NYT ran an article once that pretty much tore the entire program apart and hiring managers were PO'd that the program even existed... in other words, they were probably duped by someone at some point.

That being said, I have looked into this myself and I seriously considered it, but my employer at the time did not offer tuition assistance of any kind. Also, at that time, they didn't have a residency requirement for the program I was interested in... and the programs were a bit different. There was an IT degree with a focus in Management and a Management degree with a focus in IT... and I would have been interested in either, since that was my specific goal at that time.

tpatt100

This NYT article? Seems pretty optimistic to me:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/18/national/18harvard.html?pagewanted=all

powerfool

No, the one I am referencing is newer by several years... 2007-2009 timeframe... it is from the hiring manager perspective. The general tone is that folks tend to represent themselves as graduates of the more prestigious schools and are essentially frauds.

ptilsen

I'm looking more at this, myself:
MSIT Distance Track
CMU actually has better rep than Harvard for computer science and IT/management. This program was ranked #1 in the country for IT management by US News and World Report (CMU's CS program is also tied for #1 with MIT in most rankings I've seen, FWIW). Totally online, no relocation needed. There is no "negative" or "fake" stigma that I can find in researching this thus far (whereas I see threads with these complains about UMUC, HES, etc.).

Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on the subject in general, but my research on MS programs in IT/IS, IA, and CS led me to this and it seems relevant to your interests.

bmy78

@ptilsen: Looks interesting, I'll have to look into it. The program, however, does look pretty expensive. And CMU is a very reputable university.

I think if one is upfront about HES, then it probably wouldn't appear fake. If one can present the projects one does, then it can be judged on its merits rather than reputation. Hey, if you can say "if you have to go to night school, might as well be the Harvard of night schools. Literally."

Seriously though, the program does look comprehensive. Though thanks for the link about CMU--that does look intriguing.

powerfool

No, I think HES is fine... I am just letting you know that if you try to be vague and just put "Harvard" or something similar, you may be called out for it. In many situations, something like that would be unnoticed and you could probably get a great job... in places where things are more rigorous, they would probably notice it. Just be careful in how you represent it, that's all I am saying, and it seems like you have that figured out.

UnixGuy

ptilsen wrote: »

I'm looking more at this, myself:
MSIT Distance Track
CMU actually has better rep than Harvard for computer science and IT/management. This program was ranked #1 in the country for IT management by US News and World Report (CMU's CS program is also tied for #1 with MIT in most rankings I've seen, FWIW). Totally online, no relocation needed. There is no "negative" or "fake" stigma that I can find in researching this thus far (whereas I see threads with these complains about UMUC, HES, etc.).

Anyway, I don't have a strong opinion on the subject in general, but my research on MS programs in IT/IS, IA, and CS led me to this and it seems relevant to your interests.

This is an excellent course, I have a friend who is doing the software engineering track (but his employer is paying). I initially considered it, but I couldn't justify the cost.

UnixGuy

powerfool wrote: »

No, I think HES is fine... I am just letting you know that if you try to be vague and just put "Harvard" or something similar, you may be called out for it. In many situations, something like that would be unnoticed and you could probably get a great job... in places where things are more rigorous, they would probably notice it. Just be careful in how you represent it, that's all I am saying, and it seems like you have that figured out.

I agree with this. One has to be upfront and honest about it. HES is part of Harvard university, and is very rigorous, but one has to be honest and mention that it is Harvard Extension school. This is guy is a hater, but those who think this way exist:
Harvard & MIT extension schools have lower standards

bmy78

That guy is an idiot. Does he not realize he is judging the whole school based on his tiny sample size? Geez...

I'm just trying to determine one of three avenues I could take, after passing A+ and Network+ this summer...

1. Take a course online at HES. I'm preferring the software engineering track, but I don't have the math prerequisites. I would need to make those up. If I like it, work towards the ALM in IT degree (or their new software engineering prof. Cert)

2. Enroll in NJIT's MS in information systems program. I'm not sure how "technical" this is, or is it very high level design without delving into programming. Not sure if this is very useful without previous real world experience.

3. Take a routing course and a math course at my local community college. They partner with Cisco Academy so it coincides with CCNA.

Now to decide...

UnixGuy

bmy78 wrote: »

That guy is an idiot. Does he not realize he is judging the whole school based on his tiny sample size? Geez...

I'm just trying to determine one of three avenues I could take, after passing A+ and Network+ this summer...

1. Take a course online at HES. I'm preferring the software engineering track, but I don't have the math prerequisites. I would need to make those up. If I like it, work towards the ALM in IT degree (or their new software engineering prof. Cert)

2. Enroll in NJIT's MS in information systems program. I'm not sure how "technical" this is, or is it very high level design without delving into programming. Not sure if this is very useful without previous real world experience.

3. Take a routing course and a math course at my local community college. They partner with Cisco Academy so it coincides with CCNA.

Now to decide...

He is an idiot, and you have to be careful because the world is full of idiot, plenty of them are decision makers, so think wisely.


As for your three points, it really depends on your goal. What experience do you have so far? what undergrad degree do you have?

and more importantly, why do you want to do the degree?


If you are already a software developer, then MS in software engineering helps to move up to more software design roles. Information systems degree are about design and management of IT in general, curriculum should have some finance/econ courses if I'm not mistaken. Cisco academy is just hands-on training on cisco products, helpful if you want to do network support for Cisco gear.

bmy78

UnixGuy wrote: »

He is an idiot, and you have to be careful because the world is full of idiot, plenty of them are decision makers, so think wisely.

As for your three points, it really depends on your goal. What experience do you have so far? what undergrad degree do you have?

and more importantly, why do you want to do the degree?

I'm in the process of a career change. I used to be a teacher. Now in order for me to gain employment in IT I'm studying for both A+ and Network+ certifications.

From there, I don't know. CCNA and networking seems interesting to me. So does programming. I've learned HTML/CSS and PHP/MySQL on my own, and I took several courses in Java years back. Otherwise I don't have experience other than a passing interesting in computers.

So I guess it all depends on what I want to do.

I'm also concerned with ageism -- even though I'm in my early 30s, I keep hearing that software engineers have a short half-life--businesses like to see the older guys get into management and hire the newbie kids in those roles. So I've I'm 33, learn some programming languages and techniques within two years--when I turn 40 I'll be looked at as a dinosaur with only a few years of experience.

So, you can say everything seems interesting and as a result I'm paralyzed with indecision.

UnixGuy

Don't worry about age now, just get your foot in any of the mentioned areas (i.e. get a job in that area), and the rest depends on many circumstances (employer, location, luck,...etc). Don't get lost and learn so many things, just try to get a job (any job) as soon as possible, and move from there.

bmy78

In that case, the easiest barrier to break through would be to land an entry level job at help desk / desktop support or a noc role. In that case, taking the routing I class would benefit me most in the short term. Is that how you see it?

UnixGuy

bmy78 wrote: »

In that case, the easiest barrier to break through would be to land an entry level job at help desk / desktop support or a noc role. In that case, taking the routing I class would benefit me most in the short term. Is that how you see it?

Or a programming job. Any job would be good. See if you like it and thinking of moving up. Either way, you can keep working on your qualifications while you're working. It's much better to develop your qualifications while you're already employed. You can make connections and start getting hands-on experience..

bmy78

But how could I get a programming job without experience?

Been on an Android kick these past couple of days so I've been reading tutorials on that. Though networking does sound interesting. Arrgh, so many options, I can't decide.

UnixGuy

you can! any job needs experience, but some employers would give a chance to people without experience. Just try. Apply for jobs, nothing to lose.

jaclynn

Bmy78, of your three choices, my vote is for option "1". As a current HES student, I'm obviously biased, but here are my reasons why:

- Remotely accessible and recorded classes let you work when you are most productive, as opposed to having to be physically "somewhere" at a specific time.

- The ALM IT program covers a wide area of study. You can start taking courses and decide your specialty later. Like you, I enjoy networking and programming, but I really enjoy security. It's hard to choose, but having exposure in all areas will only help to round out your skill set.

- Math requirement. Take the Discrete Mathematics course from Udacity for free. That should give you a great foundation.

- I teach Cisco Networking Academy courses. While the theory is there, unless you want a CCNA, you're going to spend a lot of time studying Cisco-specific technology and IOS. Cisco equipment (and training) is expensive, and only larger companies are really investing in the enterprise stuff. Smaller companies are moving towards cloud-based services and using more affordable equipment like Sonicwall. CSCI E-131B at HES will teach you enough about networking to help you decide whether you want to pursue more of it. It follows the OSI model, physical->app. All topics are covered in depth, including but not limited to encoding, circuit and packet switching, ethernet addressing and switching, routing protocols, transport layer windows, slow start and congestion control, sessions, RTP, HTTP, SIP, VoIP... I'll stop there.

Two more thoughts. You are moving from an academic environment to something new, possibly corporate, correct? I made the exact opposite transition. While the money is tighter, I find the academic environment to be much more rewarding. I am more free to explore new technologies. In my corporate job, I was "siloed" into storage projects, eventually moving into management. You sound like you like to dabble in various areas. You may want to consider looking for work at a school, non-profit or smaller company where there may be more opportunities to work on many things. Secondly, I believe you said you were concerned about ageism in the programming field. In my experience, our older more seasoned programmers were the ones who could be depended upon for cleaner code, thorough documentation and application stability. They were the ones more likely to work with enterprise support and DBAs rather than against them. Do not discount your age and experience; they are assets. The company that wants to ditch you for someone younger (read cheaper, possibly with fewer personal obligations) is probably not the place you want to work.

I hope that helps. These are just my opinions and I realize there are different viewpoints. I did receive notice that I was accepted into the graduate degree program at HES, so I'm looking forward to continuing there. Will be taking an Oracle class and advanced networking in the Fall. Good luck mulling over your options, and remember it's nice to have options!

HLRS

Well everyone knows that Harvard Extension is not the real Harvard Uni programs. I woulnd'nt do it because emlpoyers will still know you didn't go to real Harvard it will look weird imo.

qwertyiop

What some people fail to notice that this is just one of Harvards 13 schools each with different admission requirements.
If you go to HES your still considered a Harvard student and even get issued a Harvard school ID, you even attend the same graduation ceremony.

But is this really Harvard? You bet—it’s just Harvard in the evening. You have the opportunity to be taught by professors from many of the schools within Harvard University, from the Medical School to Harvard College. Classes held on campus are right in Harvard Square in the same buildings other students use during the day. As a student, you have access to the Grossman Library and more than 3,000 electronic databases and journals through the Harvard Libraries. You can also tap into career or academic counseling.
The Extension School offers you a chance to prove your potential in an Ivy League classroom. Getting into a class is not dependent on how you scored on standardized tests or your résumé, but rather on your desire to learn and succeed.

Harvard Extension School Works to Keep Education Affordable


According to their site this is how you may list your degree on your resume:

Degree name

The degrees are awarded by Harvard University.

• Associate in Arts in Extension Studies
• Bachelor of Liberal Arts in Extension Studies

On your résumé, the degree may be listed as either of the following:

• Bachelor of Liberal Arts [Associate in Arts], in Extension Studies, Harvard University.
• Bachelor of Liberal Arts [Associate in Arts], Harvard University Extension School. Include field of study, minor, and degree honors when applicable.

Graduation Requirements | Harvard Extension Undergraduate Degrees