Are the members of TE in the minority when it comes to certs in the workplace?

N2IT

Most of the people I have become friends/aquintances with either have no or few certifications. This can range from high level managers to help desk employees. The ones that do have certifications seem to only have 1-2 certifications usually. I'm not taking a head count, but being an extrovert I engage in conversations a lot and people openly disclose this information. A lot of times they see me reading a book related to a certification and that sparks a conversation.

A few things I noticed.

Most managers I have met that have certifications were paid for by the company and sent them to a training course, because it was a requirement or heavily influenced. This is only for managers that I have noticed this accommodation. I have seen reimbursements back to employees for education, but not a lot of certification reimbursement unless there is a solid business reason or value that is apparent.

Most technologist I have met might get the low level certifications like A+ and then just progress through attrition, good fortune, and/or solid performance appraisals. This isn't to say I don't see individuals with certifications it's just not as much as I would of expected. I have worked in a lot of different environments and this seems to be the case for most.

I also noticed that some employees seem to binge cert until they get where they want to be and then literally slam the breaks. Never to return to the certification world ever again.

Have you noticed this at all?

QHalo

Quite a few of the people I deal with could care less if you're certified. They're more concerned with whether you can perform or not.

sandman748

Yep. At least at my workplace anyway. Our architect had ccna but it's expired, our "senior" tech has never been certified, and three of the five remaining have nothing either. Most of them have been with the company for so long they got the job based on seniority.

Things are changing though. The two of us who are certified are moving quickly. It took me 6 months to get to a job most people waited (literally, it was a next in line thing) 5+ years for.

the_Grinch

I have seen it vary depending on the places I have worked. At the MSP I was with, most people had a ton of certs. The smaller companies I have been with haven't had many if any. That's the interesting thing about IT, certs definitely help, but a lot of times just being able to do the job is more then enough.

Iristheangel

At my last job, there were a few people with certs here and there but none of them had as many as I did or even a degree... but then again, it showed in the quality of work and general knowledge. That's not to say there aren't people out there with the knowledge and without any formal education

N2IT

@Qhalo

This is the feeling I get. My last boss thought it was a good idea to get the PMP, but other than that never mentioned anything about certs. At lunch one day he said "let me fill you in on something. Either you can deliver or you can't".

When I told him I passed the CAPM, he said Oh..... LOL

tpatt100

I don't think anybody here has any, when I asked HR if they had a training/education tracking site/document they said they did not. When I asked around it seems most have been here forever.

YFZblu

N2IT wrote: »

@Qhalo

This is the feeling I get. My last boss thought it was a good idea to get the PMP, but other than that never mentioned anything about certs. At lunch one day he said "let me fill you in on something. Either you can deliver or you can't".

I think this is pretty much the universal attitude managers have in this field; however in my experience it's not the managers who are combing Dice, Career Builder, Monster, LinkedIn, etc...It's HR personnel looking for buzzwords and proof of knowledge on resumes...Which IMO is why you see the cert binges as you described it.


In my organization certification is valued and even required in many positions, so there are all kinds of certified individuals floating around.

N2IT

@tpatt

The 4 guys I work with now, only one has a certification and it's in Sun Solaris Unix. I asked him why he had it guess what the answer was. My former employer required it.

paulgswanson

Theres only 2 of us that have them here. J has MCTS and I'v got A+,N+,MTA. I didnt get my first till last year and Iv been in Tech since 2006. There no focus on it which is a big stupid bummer.

eansdad

Given the state of the economy and job market I would say more people are staying at their jobs instead of jumping ship to a new one. Management has been on a "promote the person who has been here the longest" for so long that usually seems like all they know. Management also doesn't want to pay someone from the outside with a cert more money then someone on the inside without a cert that they know can do the job.

If someone is binging on certs then they might be looking to get out. Certs only represent that you should know a certain product or have a certain skill set. The biggest problem I'd have is having tons of exp but no certs and then layoffs or closure happens.

At my shop just about everyone has A+, a few have Net+, 2 of us have more (both go to WGU), we have 1 new hire with an expired CCNA (about 6 years old) and a Network Admin with a MCSE (NT) and a supervisor that was a science teacher.

ptilsen

We care about certs here both for the knowledge they demonstrate and for the partnership benefits, and even have formal definitions for our engineer tiers regarding what certs, experience, and education they should possess. That being said, the reality is that most of us, myself included, are under-certified compared to what we've defined and half the team has no certs. With technically five MS certs and three CompTIA, I am the second most or tied for the most certified, depending on how one defines it, with another engineer who has MCSE on 2003. I don't consider myself to be that highly certified, so the reality is that our employees are not hired or promoted based on even loose certification requirements. Certs help, but we ultimately have technical questions and assessments to determine knowledge and skill level.

I've found many other organizations in job searching that are fairly similar. They value certs and may ask for them, but many, probably most will interview and hire a candidate with certifications as a very low-priority factor. On the other hand, there are some that absolutely require certifications and won't even consider hiring a candidate without them. I would say in my wide search for sysadmin/engineer type jobs heavy in MS, Vmware, and Security technologies, the requirements I've found as being far more common are four-year degrees and specific experience or skill. Certs are usually a "bonus" rather than a requirement, where as experience and education are required and the requirement is rigid.

That is my perception based on my current search and past searches. I've noticed networking jobs tend to be more rigid and specific on certification requirements, and I would imagine most network engineering jobs are pretty rigid on needing CCNA/NP/IE.

swild

QHalo wrote: »

Quite a few of the people I deal with couldn't care less if you're certified. They're more concerned with whether you can perform or not.

Let me fix that for ya.

When I got my current job, the IT manager that hired me said that I was the most qualified by far, but out of the 50 some-odd people he interviewed over a 3 month period, I was the only one with any certs.

I am now the only IT person at my division, so it's hard to tell. When I started, there was only one person with certs in his signature line. He is one of the higher level project managers and is a CISSP. Since I added the CISSP tag to my name, I have seen quite a few others pop up with A+, Net+. PMP, etc. but the norm is still none.

Since I haven't found my home so to speak, I am still getting certs to prove myself to future employers. When I get settled, I will probably slow down quite a bit, but don't see myself ever stopping. I at least have to keep my CISSP current.

shodown

sandman748 wrote: »

Yep. At least at my workplace anyway. Our architect had ccna but it's expired, our "senior" tech has never been certified, and three of the five remaining have nothing either. Most of them have been with the company for so long they got the job based on seniority.

Things are changing though. The two of us who are certified are moving quickly. It took me 6 months to get to a job most people waited (literally, it was a next in line thing) 5+ years for.

This right here. I got Certed up early and went to Sr network engineer in 3 years, to lead engineer in 4 years. When you get the certs you get the call, Now that i'm in the position I want and the salary I want I don't have the urge to do as many as I use to, but it does help. No since on waiting 5-10 years for a senior position, then another few years for a lead, when you can get it done in a shorter amount of time and then round yourself out when your already there without having to worry about money and so on.

undomiel

We only have just barely enough to maintain gold partnership status with Microsoft. The boss would love people to get certified and there are plenty of offers of buying training material and paying for tests, but people keep on failing. So far the only people to pass any certifications (not counting an MCTS for one test) since I have been hired on 3 years ago are myself and the boss. Everyone else keeps failing tests. For expired/retired certifications there are a few NT4 and 2000 MCSEs and I believe one expired CCNA.

I find it very curious the lack of motivation I see for people to dive into training materials, much less actually work on certifications. Even from some of the people who are more passionate about technology. I did convince one guy to start working on a lab at home though, for practicing Exchange migrations. so that's a start at least.

N2IT

undomiel

That's really great. I encourage people as well, but a lot of times they look at me like I have two heads. No worries!

kgb

undomiel wrote: »

I find it very curious the lack of motivation I see for people to dive into training materials, much less actually work on certifications. Even from some of the people who are more passionate about technology. I did convince one guy to start working on a lab at home though, for practicing Exchange migrations. so that's a start at least.

What you describe is true in every industry. People just collect a paycheck. It's a great feeling when you are able to actually work with people that share the same motivation levels because you can feed off each other.

Zartanasaurus

There was a recent emphasis on certs/hiring folks with certs with the last CIO. In my unit, everyone my age at least has a Network+ or something. Several people past and present with multiple MCITPs, VCP and such. Other units have PMP, CAPM, HDI, A+.

A lot of the older folks either retired, left or the ones who couldn't leave didn't bother and lucked out when the CIO left.

sandman748

undomiel wrote: »

I find it very curious the lack of motivation I see for people to dive into training materials, much less actually work on certifications. Even from some of the people who are more passionate about technology. I did convince one guy to start working on a lab at home though, for practicing Exchange migrations. so that's a start at least.

Problem is that if there's no financial incentive for the company (partner status, etc..) there's usually no financial incentive to the employee (aside from possibly obtaining a new position) and most of us are motivated by $$$$$. I am sure that once I finally hit the position that I am happy staying with , I'll start to let certs expire. I may never hit that point though.

blargoe

From my experience in the corporate environment, it's a nicety, but not that important. If you're working for a service provider, it's extremely important.

the_Grinch

Fact is you can do your job and learn without needing a certification. As an example, I've done a ton of work on Server 2003 and 2008 without ever having a certification in it. That's not to say that I have all the terms down and that I could handle a migration, but put in front of it and I will learn what I need too. Certs are nice and I do like to pursue them, but sometimes you need to give yourself a bit of a break.

MeanDrunkR2D2

Myself, when I hit a certain point in my career where certs won't matter, I'll stop. But I definitely will not be one that becomes a collector of certs and take every single one under the sun even if I know that I won't be applying it to use in my job or future jobs. I only have 2 certs currently, and There are maybe a couple more I want to attain, but it will depend on what path my career takes. If I get into management in IT, I'll put my focus on that and look at ways to improve me upward from there which usually doesn't involve many certs.

And as far as others in my company that have certs, there is only 1 other I know of, and he has the MCITP EA, and only one other that just wants to get the A+, but has been putting it off for years. He doesn't believe me when I tell him that it's the easiest cert you'll ever get, and that in his position he should skip it since it won't add anything to his current role or future roles.

spicy ahi

I'm a guilty party of the cert 'til I get where I want to be. From '07 to '09 I studied like the dickens and got the majority of my certs. Then I got the job I wanted and started moving up in that realm. It wasn't until recently that I started back up on the cert train and that's because prior to 2011, I closed nearly every interview I went on (I think I may have only missed on 1 or 2) But last year, there was something in the water because the only interview I was able to close is the one for my current job. And that was in December of last year. That was 1 of about 20 interviews I went on.

During the year, I did everything from tweaking my resume, to working my contacts and I still had a .050 batting average. I think the economy definitely plays a part in it, as folks are truly interviewing now, and not just reading off a paper and finding the cheapest person they can find (been guilty of doing that too as a hiring manager) I think nowadays, companies are still looking for someone who is close to the low end of the pay scale but still has some upside potential or drive who will truly do something in the position and not just collect a paycheck. Does that mean having certs up the wazoo will help? Probably not. But having certs appropriate to your documented body of work will definitely boost your chances. I think they also help if you're trying to break into a new line of IT. I've been in networking for the last 5 years but am wanting to move into the IA realm and am orienting my certs in that direction (CCNA Security, CISSP) along with accentuating the IA related functions I've performed. I haven't applied for any IA jobs yet so I can't say if it's a successful strategy, but I'm sure it'll give me a better look than just a CCNA and my smile.

N2IT

In my line of work there have been certifications that have gotten me noticed pre interview, interview and post interview. With my passion being in management mainly service, operational, and project my ITIL have really given me a lot of in depth knowledge into the space I am working in. Currently I am in an analyst position, hopefully transitioning out soon enough

I think a lot of if really does depend on the type of work you do, the type of work you want to do, and the culture you are going into.

onesaint

Out of the folks I know the two that are all cert'ed up have the highest paying jobs in completely different areas of IT. Maybe that's due to ambition, the certs, or just luck. I can't say. On the other side, the guys without are in the same positions doing the same thing with minimal increases in pay.

Me personally, I'd rather be the one with ambition than the one struggling.

Claymoore

I agree with blargoe, in internal IT certs may be a plus but in the consulting or service provider world they are a requirement. Every consultant in my company is required to be MS certified since we are a partner. We also maintain a large number of gold competencies - one of the most, if not the most competencies among the MS NSI - which require constant recertification as those requirements change at least annually. Consultants are also required to hold certain certifications to deliver MS-funded packaged service engagements. That's why I have certs like MDOP, both Vista and Win7 deployment that I would never have pursued otherwise.

Devilry

I asked around about this from a job I took a few months back. I was trying to get a feel for what it would take to move up.

To my surprise I found only two people had certs at all, one had ITIL because it was mandated by the company, then they dropped the initiative shortly before anyone else went to get it. The second guy, being one of the most senior engineers had a MCSE (NT). None have degrees, even the manager has just a BS in marketing.

It was pretty crazy to me. Although, I think the management does raise eyebrows when you are certified. I told them I am getting all the MCITP 08 and MCSE 12 over the next year and they were very excited.

FloOz

yes! the same goes for my workplace. Not many people have certifications and i sometimes feel weird asking my manager if i can get reimburshed for a cert i am going to take. (i did get reimburshed for my A+).

swild

So far I have been reimbursed for my A+, Net+, Sec+, and CISSP. I would be getting tuition reimbursement for WGU if I would stay on for an additional year, but I can make more than that in a year somewhere else that I want to be.

I have paid out of pocket for 70-680, Project+, and 2 attempts at the ICND2, not including the WGU tuition, which paid for all the rest of my certs.

sys_teck

As far I know, my company which is a private education establishment, really doesn't care about certifications, we have a few folks with Cisco CCIE, some guys who just passed either Microsoft or cisco CCENT, just got another job.

People who has no technical experience jump to a bandwagon of Certification after passing A+, just drop a ball, they find it more difficult to pass more advanced certifications Net+, or Microsoft and/or Cisco.

our HR guys, really don't care, and heard a buzz word Certification, but have no real clue

N2IT

It seems to be some what normal to be apart of IT environments without certifications. I personally like getting certifications that capture my experience and drive me in the direction I want to go.

Defiently not a paper chaser. Well I am a reformed paper chaser just ignore those CompTIA's