How do you handle certification nay sayers?

erpadmin

I can tell you this much...I've worked in shops where the operations manager (the network infrastructure guy) is one of those "any idiot can take a test" guys (his exact words.) The people who work under guys like this typically have no certifications and will come up with a million and one reasons why something is not working. When someone not in their group makes a polite observation (that tends to be correct) they tend to get ultradefensive, as if you just insulted their wife or mother.

I'm in agreement with saner heads:

1) Certification certifies knowledge
2) The higher one goes in their career, the more this type of argument becomes terribly pedestrian.

I can say this much...I would personally gun for a person who has certifications than a person who doesn't. Though the person with certifications will get much heavier scrutiny. (To insure that he actually knows his stuff and did not use resources that would see asterisks on this site... ) Even with that though, the totality of his resume would then come into play. (e.g. the guy with an MCITP:EA/MCSE, CCNP but is working help desk for 10 years will probably not get a call back for a systems (or networks) admin/engineering position...)

zenhound

erpadmin wrote: »

(e.g. the guy with an MCITP:EA/MCSE, CCNP but is working help desk for 10 years will probably not get a call back for a systems (or networks) admin/engineering position...)

What if he'd been working help desk for 10 years but got those certifications recently as a way to move forward? I've been in my position for 7 years and am certing up trying to get out/move up. Partially I stayed so long because I got dinged in interviews for never staying anywhere more than a couple years. Partially because advancement kept being promised if I'd be patient...bleh. Anyway, just wondered if it's worth doing. Not that I have anywhere close to those certs.

erpadmin

zenhound wrote: »

What if he'd been working help desk for 10 years but got those certifications recently as a way to move forward?

My belief is that certifications certify knowledge on the job in addition to knowledge earned at home...take the CCIE for example. You think a guy (or gal) that has never touched a router outside of the lab exam at Cisco when gunning for his CCIE should get a job making $100k with no prior experience, just because he got the CCIE? Apply that logic to any number of certs.

What I meant about the help desk guy being there for 10 years was that if you earned a cert like CCNP in your 6th year of help desk, but yet never aspired to move out of the desk, that can be quite telling.

At the same time, if you are at the help desk and you've been promoted to a sys/network admin position with say a CCNA and a MCSA/MCSE, then yeah that can be a big leg up. It's all about progressive experience and progressive knowledge. That to me is much bigger deal than what cert you have.

To put myself as an example, I've been involved with project management (as a lead, as a resource) for as long as I've worked in ERPs. That's over 9 years. I'm now ready to put my big boy pants on, and gun for the PMP so that I can add "project manager" to my repertoire. I've worked enough in project management and around project managers (good, bad, and ugly...) that I'm ready for it. But I wouldn't shoot for PMP merely because some certification survey says I'll make a gazillion dollars like a CCIE...otherwise, if it were like that I would have gone for the CCIE.

I know how you feel about longevity at a job though. My resume prior to my last job was the same way...this current job is the longest I've been at any job. My boss asked me during an interview about the number of years I had with each job and why it was so short. I spoke the truth, just about. (left 1st job for more money, was laid off from second...the third I kinda fudged about, but I stuck with the I wanted to seek better opportunities and expand upon my skillset.) I also added that with each place I was at, it added value to my experience and I was always able to take away something from each place, blah blah blah. I could see the others' eyes were buying, but the big boss did not want someone who was going to leave after 2 years. I then said, I'm not interested in a job, I'm interested in a career and I would like to make my career at blah blah blah.

For better or worse, I felt honor-bound to stay, but staying allowed me to take advantage of union-mandated raises...however that's finite, and I'm about to reach my last one next year. But I (somewhat) have time on my side...I'm not pressured to leave right this second. My advice right back at you is to have a plan. I can't tell you what your plan should be, but I can tell you that if it's well thought out, you will have better success at seeing it to fruition.

kremit

erpadmin wrote: »

Even with that though, the totality of his resume would then come into play. (e.g. the guy with an MCITP:EA/MCSE, CCNP but is working help desk for 10 years will probably not get a call back for a systems (or networks) admin/engineering position...)

Based on this statement I should sell my cert books and becoming a programmer then. I am sick and tired of the politics in the networking/admin fields. Truly a bunch of asinine people. No matter what you certify in or how much ass you bust, their buddy will always get it over you. I just don't get it. Sorry to sound like a bitter old man, but I am.

erpadmin

Understand this, kremit...there is life out of the help desk for those that want it. There are guys I personally know that LOVE being in the help desk, and want to do nothing to get out of there. If there people who want to be out of help desk, they will get out, and it should not take 10 years to do it. But there are people who get these certifications while at the desk and just stay there. This isn't politics, and I'm not trying to sound like a snob...I was a JOAT and did level 2 help desk combined for 5 years...I didn't even have a cert to my name when I did it.

If my point was misunderstood, then I apologize, but try to understand where I'm coming from.

Mrock4

I get certified for myself, so if someone else doesn't like certs, or bashes them, it really has absolutely zero impact on me.

kremit

erpadmin wrote: »

If my point was misunderstood, then I apologize, but try to understand where I'm coming from.

I would say it is my fault for not understanding you correctly. Why anyone would get advanced certifications, like a CCNP, to do password resets in AD for the rest of their career baffles me. As you can see from my response earlier, it's tiring seeing that this problem described by the OP is all over the place. Get certs, people talk **** or people that are in control of hiring have no respect for them. Why? People with masters in software engineering get 100K+ and lots of respect. Why are the people that score similar leveled certs treated like dirt? I don't get the mentality.

Mrock4

kremit wrote: »

Get certs, people talk **** or people that are in control of hiring have no respect for them. Why? People with masters in software engineering get 100K+ and lots of respect. Why are the people that score similar leveled certs treated like dirt? I don't get the mentality.

I think people who display this sort of behavior are just jealous and/or in fear of being obsolete (or perceived as being obsolete), so the solution is to downplay any progress someone makes around them professionally, so that they may appear to be on the same level.

Additionally, in my humble opinion, if you're around people who talk trash about you getting certs, you are in the WRONG organization.

NetworkVeteran

kremit wrote: »

Why anyone would get advanced certifications, like a CCNP...

The CCNP is not an advanced certification.

Cisco sells it as an intermediate-level certification recommended for people with a minimum of one year of industry experience working on routers/switches.

People with masters in software engineering get 100K+ and lots of respect. Why are the people that score similar leveled certs treated like dirt?

First, the CCNP is not on the same level as a master's or even a bachelor's degree in software engineering. Not even close! I have a degree. I have a CCNP. The degree is what I frame and matters more to employers. Second, I have never allowed people to treat me like dirt, even when I worked in fast food. It's really up to each person to have enough respect for themselves to not allow themselves to be treated that way. Third, $100k+ is within the grasp of many who don't have degrees. High salaries are, of course, a bit easier for those who put in that effort.

Forsaken_GA

Most of my cert conversations relate to others that are in my field, so there's rarely any negativity concerning them. Most of the time, it's folks asking for advice on what to study, or for clarifications. Last week I ended up holding a couple impromptu training sessions on EIGRP when one of the guys came and asked me a few questions, others overhead us talking, and asked questions as well, and so on. We can't actually use EIGRP since we're a multivendor environment, but they need to know it for the exams they're studying for. After awhile, the conversation turned away from EIGRP specific to cert strategy, and folks wanted to know what they needed to know really well, where the tricks were, and so on (I never, ever teach to just pass the exam though, I teach to impart knowledge and core concepts, that way they'll be capable of answering whatever questions get thrown at them).

Outside of my peers, I rarely discuss certification, except when something comes up in real life and I have to explain why I can't do it (CCIE study), then I get to explain what the CCIE is and what it means. Professionals who have had to pass things like the bar or the Professional Engineering exam understand immediately. Others think I'm just a big damn nerd, which is fine, since I am. I never, ever engage people on a professional level about certs outside of my discipline. You won't ever find me discussing Microsoft exams, CompTIA exams, or something like the RHCE with non-network people. Seen far too many holy wars start when you get server guys and network guys comparing dick size over certs.

kremit

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

The CCNP is not an advanced certification.

Cisco sells it as an intermediate-level certification recommended for people with a minimum of one year of industry experience working on routers/switches.

First, the CCNP is not on the same level as a master's or even a bachelor's degree in software engineering. Not even close! I have a degree. I have a CCNP. The degree is what I frame and matters more to employers. Second, I have never allowed people to treat me like dirt, even when I worked in fast food. It's really up to each person to have enough respect for themselves to not allow themselves to be treated that way. Third, $100k+ is within the grasp of many who don't have degrees. High salaries are, of course, a bit easier for those who put in that effort.

Not sure where I said a CCNP is on the same level as a masters or bacholers, but ok. What I was bringing up, was the lack of respect for people with industry certifications. Mind you, I am talking purely from this city and the complaints I see from managers and techs in the field above me. It's really astonishing how these people are treated.

xbuzz

Some universities use CCNA as framework for a course in uni worth around 60 points in a 360 point Bsc honour degree. Some use CCNP course as framework for MSc and it's worth around 180/240 for that Msc.

Mrock4

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Seen far too many holy wars start when you get server guys and network guys comparing dick size over certs.

Preaching to the choir- I've seen this a lot.

More recently, my counterpart (the server lead) said the following when describing a problem they had:

Server guy: "It's not like networking, it's not just a clear answer, we have to really troubleshoot it instead of just typing one command and knowing the problem"

Some things will never change..

spiderjericho

I've never really met a cert naysayer before.

As far as respect goes, IT certs are a weird thing. A bunch of contractors were talking about certs aligning to college courses and how $ome universities don't accept them as a way to waive a class. Example: I went to UMUC for my first Bachelor's in journalism/communications. I wanted to get an IT BS and was looking at their courses and noticed a few aligned with MCSE 2003, CCDA and CCNP, etc. So I contact them to see if they would waive those classes if I send a transcript. They're like no, they're not ACE accredited. And I was like $$$.

Anyways, one of the contractors said try CLEPing, it's like studying for a cert exam. Just look up the answers online!!

snokerpoker

I handle it by kicking a$$. 'Nuff said.

Falasi

I still remember When I managed CISSP, all my co-workers were shocked then happy for me and my boss gave me "It will never help you , you wasted your time", 5 months later (and few certifications in between); he asked me what certification he should take to support his position as Manager. Turned out that Top management understands the value of certificate to validate knowledge and I think this is where it should start.

Some people will value only experience which is understandable , however - and I think this is more common outside US - not everyone follow best practice , or at least do things right. this is where Cert helps and assure that you have a common ground to evaluate performance. I've seen Firewall Admins - with 10 years of exp - allowing all services or bi-directional rules just "because its easier!" Server admins who doesnt set his IP/mask/gateway right and complain why he cant communicate with other servers. seen Application Sr.Administrator who doesn't know which services his application should run and which he should close or which ports he require to run his application. etc

Note saying that Certification will solve this completely , a Help Desk guy who manage a CCNA can start in Network easily , we are not talking about running the whole show; its more about start up and assist with network related tasks and slowly build up what he is lacking: experience.

This is my personal Opinion

N2IT

RouteThisWay wrote: »

True- I don't display or talk about my A+/Net+. I do display my VCP though- I worked really hard for that exam and am pretty proud of it. Not that I didn't work hard for my entry level certs or weren't proud of them. Plus, in my current company, most people aren't technical people. It is a good conversation starter to talk about virtualization technologies and a basic overview of it.

Personally I would list that one to. That is a well respected certification.

xbuzz

Nice post Falasi. I think your point about the importance of learning best practices is a good one. I've seen a few people say that cert's only teach "best practice" like it's a bad thing, but I think it's a good thing. You might never work with networks etc that have been built to best practice in real life, but knowing what the best practice is gives you a guildline on the horizon to aim for. If you've only ever learned through experience, you might not even know what the perfect network etc should even look like.