Blacks working in the IT Field

keatron

Yes sir. you are right. People do use the excuse "he's just crying wolf" to try and brush the problem under the rug. This does happen, as you pointed out, in my case. I guess we're really agreeing, and my point really is this. If you really want to be effective in combating these types of things there's two things that really need to be done. 1. Complain only when it's actually happening. 2. When you do complain, make sure you do what it takes to make yourself heard.

drainey

I agree racism does exist. 1.)I come from a family from Central Mississippi. Racism definetly exists. 2.) My mother divorced my father, remarried a black man and they had a child (my younger brother). I know about discrimination. But if you want my opinion my borther is the one who has it all worked out. He is just about to graduate from the University of Virginia and is so smart it's almost scary. At 16 he was a network security analyst for Litton Inc. as a summer intern job. Today he is double majoring in Computer Management Technologies and Electrical Engineering, with a 3.76 GPA. I might also add that he is the class President. My point is that he may be half-black, but never acts as if it matters. He has been the subject of discrimination, but never allows it to be a focal issue. He simply moves on. He does what he wants and never expects not to be able to. I asked him about it once, his response was this. That in the end skin color and treatment don't matter. Focus on what you do well, improve what you don't.

If there is no opportunity for you at your current job (regardless of reason) suck it up and move on. Stick to your principles, work your a$$ off, study hard, learn more, be the best, and the hell with racist idiots. You don't have to let them control you or your success. Overall the point is if you play that game at all the racist has won.

Also and I mean no offense, but there were some typographical and grammer errors in your post. If you make the same unintentional mistakes at work, you may be giving the impression you are not focused enough on the details, that you aren't that interested in doing your job well, that you lack the discpline to make sure you do it right, that you're lazy or so on and so forth.

Good Luck with the job and/or job search.

pretty_boy

drainey wrote:

Also and I mean no offense, but there were some typographical and grammer errors in your post. If you make the same unintentional mistakes at work, you may be giving the impression you are not focused enough on the details, that you aren't that interested in doing your job well, that you lack the discpline to make sure you do it right, that you're lazy or so on and so forth.

Good Luck with the job and/or job search.

My errors make me human. I don't care who you are. There is always room for improvement. How can you say my unintentional mistakes gives an impression that I’m not focused and lack discipline. How can you control the unintentional? If you could then it wouldn't be unintentional. Oh yeah, Borther the correct spelling is Brother. Grammer the correct spelling is Grammar. Defeinetly the correct spelling is Definitely. Now are you lazy and lack displine, not focus etc.... Give me a break.

pretty_boy

keatron wrote:

The first part of your post said that maybe the less experienced were trying to be weeded out.
"Black"

I had less experience in the old software and hardware; we all started at the same level on the new software and hardware. This is the reason why they wanted us to get certified. If experience was case, they would've move me and kept the experience. It would have been no reason for testing. It's obvious that had certain people in mind that could past the tests, and I bet you I wasn't one of them.

pretty_boy

drainey wrote:

. My point is that he may be half-black, but never acts as if it matters.

Through out history light skinned black people have been more accepted by white people than dark black skinned people. If you know a little a bit about black history, then you know this to be true. The light skinned work in the house and the dark skinned man pick cotton outside. I know this sounds crazy, a survey was done on light skinned vs. dark skinned receiving employment. And guess what the result was? Light skinned receive more employment than dark skinned black men. For women this is a little different. I don't even want to go into what happen to our women back then, and what black women had to do to protect their self.

pretty_boy

strauchr wrote:

But seriously, if they were really racist against you, you wouldn't have a job at all. Companies can easily find ways to get rid of you.

Read my post. Promotion is my problem. Not firing and hiring.

pretty_boy

remyforbes777. It's sound like your ready. Keep it up.

johnnynodough

pretty_boy wrote:

drainey wrote:

Also and I mean no offense, but there were some typographical and grammer errors in your post. If you make the same unintentional mistakes at work, you may be giving the impression you are not focused enough on the details, that you aren't that interested in doing your job well, that you lack the discpline to make sure you do it right, that you're lazy or so on and so forth.

Good Luck with the job and/or job search.

My errors make me human. I don't care who you are. There is always room for improvement. How can you say my unintentional mistakes gives an impression that I’m not focused and lack discipline. How can you control the unintentional? If you could then it wouldn't be unintentional. Oh yeah, Borther the correct spelling is Brother. Grammer the correct spelling is Grammar. Defeinetly the correct spelling is Definitely. Now are you lazy and lack displine, not focus etc.... Give me a break.

Seriously, who would want to help you out and promote you if you cant take constructive criticism without attacking the criticiser? Drainey simply pointed out, while stating no offense in the beginning of his statement, that your grammar is not the greatest, and you attacked him. While grammar and spelling dont mean jack on a board, it sure does in the workplace. Do you know what happens if you turn in a resume that has a spelling or grammar error on it? It gets tossed, immediately. Reports at work, if you turn in documentation that has grammar and/or spelling errors, then someone else has to fix it. It doesnt matter if its intentional or unintentional. Both instances show a bad trait. Employers dont like that, especially in the cut throat IT field.


No one is on this board to rag on you or anyone, we are all professionals or aspiring professionals and are only here to help each other and learn from others. Thats one of the nice things about this board, if someone is being a jackass they get booted.

My point, dont jump on people that are trying to help you out, he wasnt attacking you, and neither am I. Learn to accept contructive criticism.

remyforbes777

Keatron: I am glad me and you came to see eye to eye on this thing. Once we better explained ourselves we saw that we were both trying to say the same thing. I feel blessed being where I am at right now. I know with more studying and networking I can go far. I don't make excuses about anything but I also dont ignore that a big problem still exist. I dont let that problem bring me down and I see you dont either and I think that is what the difference is between the successful and the not so successful. I applaud you for what you have accomplished, and at no point was I trying to rag on you. I am in the Cincinnati, Ohio area and it is really conservative here. I have grown up in both white and black neighborhoods and what people dont realize is that although our environment, skin color, financial status may be different , a lot of our problems are the same. Once we start realizing how much more we are alike than we are different , maybe we can finally start getting along. Give me a yell sometime Keatron : remyforbes777@aol.com. I am not that far from the Chi.

pretty_boy

johnnynodough wrote:

pretty_boy wrote:

drainey wrote:

My point, dont jump on people that are trying to help you out, he wasnt attacking you, and neither am I. Learn to accept contructive criticism.

If you are going to give constructive criticism, then you should practice what you preach. Also, I need you to understand. This is a forum not a resume, and just because you see something as constructive. I might see it as stupid.

johnnynodough

In reference to practicing what I preach, I did.

Point taken regarding this being a forum and not a resume, I stated that in my post but yes, you are correct. I accept that criticism even though I was forward about it in the beginning.

But that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You still arent grasping what I am talking about. You asked a question, you got answers. The answers you didnt like, which were merely obersvations, you attempted to ridicule that person, instead of the observation.

For all we know you could be an english teacher and have impecible spelling and grammar, but who cares, its a forum, not a resume like you said.

Let my reprase my point, dont attack people who are merely trying to help you out. If you are like this with co-workers though, that could be whats holding you back. Im not saying I know everything, Im not saying Im smart, im just as stupid as the next guy.

johnnynodough

So instead of just replying something like "so what, I dont care to much about grammar today" to drainey's post you replied with

"...I dont care who you are...Oh yeah, Borther the correct spelling is Brother. Grammer the correct spelling is Grammar. Defeinetly the correct spelling is Definitely. Now are you lazy and lack displine, not focus etc.... Give me a break."

Thats all im merely trying to point out, has nothing to do with your spelling or grammar.

pretty_boy

johnnynodough wrote:

Let my reprase my point, dont attack people who are merely trying to help you out. If you are like this with co-workers though, that could be whats holding you back. Im not saying I know everything, Im not saying Im smart, im just as stupid as the next guy.

I know constructive criticism when I hear it and see it. There is a difference between constructive criticism and being a smart a$$. When I read Drainey post that is how I felt. Key word –I. You have to understand that we are different people. The way you see things, is a lot different then how I see things. Who are you to say what constructive or what not constructive. Who deemed you with this power. And just because someone says by no offense, doesn't mean that they are not trying to offend you.

keenon

let me jump in with some light,

1. IT field is ruthless by design ( the more you know the better you are due to constant change)

2. Race does play an issue, along with skills... mainly skills (i have been in the field for 5 years, underpaid, overworked in comparision to my counter parts bosses buddy or lesser skilled) but have managed to be the best and at the top of my game when I DECIDED TO BE THE BEST! and not let anyone define what i can do or can be I WON'T ACCEPT LESS THAN WHAT I'M WORTH, UNLESS THERE IS A FRINGE THAT I CAN SEE ON THE NEXT STEP

3. if you feel as if your being discriminated against for a promotion (when you are the best) 1.you should listen 2.if out sounds fishy or not a logical reason , 3.you should complain and take it to the next level ( higher ups or legally if need be BIG UPS Keatron ) with no fear. b/c there ppl that don't know more than what they have been told, experienced, seen OR known.. pity them, love them, teach them if possible and if they refuse to even try RUN THEM OVER! as a step to the personal goal you have BUT to quit when discrimination shows up running is not the first and only option.. TO THOSE THAT SAID QUIT AND GO SOMEWHERE ELSE b/c that CONTINUES THE PROBLEM!!!!!!!

4. THE WORLD WILL NOT GROW BEYOND ITS MENTAL CHAINS UNLESS WE ALL DROP THEM BEFORE THEY MAKE US SINK.

5. Contructive criticism is called DESTRUCTIVE if someone didn't ask for it or you don't have a personal relationship/vested interest in seeing this person doing well... ALSO IN THE WAY ITS WORDED!!!

injustices are often silent complaints that grow due to the constant watering( more injustices being added to it) before it builds to an re-action

im me if u wanna talk about this more

pretty_boy

RussS wrote:

In the real world certs quite often mean very little - especially when they are not accompanied with the appropriate experience.

Certs or degree’s are like keys to a lock door, with the opportunity for experience being behind the door.

pretty_boy

strauchr wrote:

We don't embrace diversity or even care about it. We just don't even think about it. Where I work we have an Australian (Me), a South African, 3 English, 1 Sri Lankan and 1 Carribean person. The most senior is the black carribean person. I never really even thought about how diverse we were until I actually thought about it.

I never said that I was the only black person that work for my company. Diversity is not an issue.

pretty_boy

keenon wrote:

!!!!!!!

5. Contructive criticism is called DESTRUCTIVE if someone didn't ask for it or you don't have a personal relationship/vested interest in seeing this person doing well... ALSO IN THE WAY ITS WORDED!!!


Exactly !!

Noods

I dont agree with your last point. Constructive criticism is never destructive.

If someone ever offers you their opinion of you, your work, your spelling, how you work with others, your mistakes, etc, that is *FREE* perspective as to how the world sees you. Now that may be how one or a few people see you, or it may be how everyone sees you! If someone says "man, I think that thing you said in the meeting was a little harsh!" there is probably some truth in it. This new perspective is a great opportunity to improve yourself. If you think the person giving their opinion is full of crap, it is also your prerogative to ignore them.

In no case however, should you take offense. Why? Because they will stop giving their opinion. Sucessful workers know that you are going to have to prove you can work with others to get promoted. That is why most people who are looking to get promoted find a mentor...so they can get *constant feedback*.

In short, being able take criticism, no matter how harsh, is important. If someone says you are a jerk, you should take 2 minutes and think about why they feel that way. If you go on the defensive everytime someone offers you their perspective, you are going to peg yourself, and people will stop offering their opinion.

drainey

My point exactly. Thank you for pointing out my errors. They were unintentional. My angering you was also unintentional and I appologize. However, and I speak from experience here, these mistakes are noticed by supervisors and (not always, but often enough) used as guidelines for how we are perceived.

As for discrimination... well I work for a small firm, there are only three of us on the pc side of IT. The rest are Unix and AS400 folks. That makes myself, my supervisor and the other full-time tech. He by the way is Mexican. Hispanic if you prefer. He can also come in late, go home early, do outside consulting on the job here, and talks way too much. Nobody wants him to work on their pc for that very (talking too much) reason. Nobody says anything to him about it from my supervisor on up though. However, if I am seen "chatting" with a co-worker my supervisor will let me know that he saw me and I need to go from job to job without talking to people. In his words show more "intensity". Is this discrimination? I don't know. I do know I can deal with it or start looking for something else.

That really is all I was trying to get at. I saw comments about about pro players "whining" as well. To clarify my position let me say, I don't care what race, religion or otherwise they are. It isn't about rasicm. They are making MILLIONS of dollars playing a sport. This is their job and I repect that, however, the rest of the working world averages less than $40,000 and year and if you do manual labor it's usually much less than that. So I do feel like they should stop whining about the pay. I would gladly take the punishment of pro football for the $400,000 a year base salary if I was good enough to make it. Which I admit I'm not. I don't begrudge them what they make or the right to ask for more, but to keep it in perspective, why don't you try holding out from work the next time you don't like the working conditions, or want a pay raise. I'm sure you would be let go as fast as I would if I tried it.

keenon

fair enough saidin your opinion .. but as i stated if you were not asked for your opinion or have an vested interest in this persons well being be quiet. stay on your game and let them run theirs.

and that saying of it not being destructive.. take the time and listen to some self help audios and even the best personal growth speakers state that it is. and try not to take offense

quote:"Constructive criticism' is a contradiction in terms, because cricism, being intellectual, analyses i.e. de-constructs. It's better to ask questions, thereby leading both yourself and the recipient of your well-meant interventions to further understanding."

also.. http://www.techcentralstation.com/100603B.html

drainey

To All:

Thanks for the insight. To those offended by my comments, I TRULY MEANT NO OFFENSE. I was just trying to pass on some advice given to me that helped. As for lighter vs darker skin, I admit I don't know and bow to the gentleman's greater knowledge.

To all who don't like me, my attitude or comments, it's a free country. Tell me to go to hell, ignore me or enlighten me.

For those who enlighten me. I appreciate it. For those that ignore me I respect your decision. For the rest. Well I got to much to worry about to worry about that.

pretty_boy

Noods wrote:

I dont agree with your last point. Constructive criticism is never destructive.


In short, being able take criticism, no matter how harsh, is important. If someone says you are a jerk, you should take 2 minutes and think about why they feel that way. If you go on the defensive everytime someone offers you their perspective, you are going to peg yourself, and people will stop offering their opinion.

Keenon said it right, It is the way it Worded. How can you call somebody a jerk and expect them to listen you. This is name calling not constructive criticism. The person calling me or anybody a jerk is the one who needs to think for 2min.

Chivalry1

drainey wrote:

Also and I mean no offense, but there were some typographical and grammer errors in your post. If you make the same unintentional mistakes at work, you may be giving the impression you are not focused enough on the details, that you aren't that interested in doing your job well, that you lack the discpline to make sure you do it right, that you're lazy or so on and so forth.

Good Luck with the job and/or job search.

This is uncalled for. This is a message board, not a RESUME. I find this comment totally out of line.

bighusker

Chivalry1 wrote:

drainey wrote:

Also and I mean no offense, but there were some typographical and grammer errors in your post. If you make the same unintentional mistakes at work, you may be giving the impression you are not focused enough on the details, that you aren't that interested in doing your job well, that you lack the discpline to make sure you do it right, that you're lazy or so on and so forth.

Good Luck with the job and/or job search.

This is uncalled for. This is a message board, not a RESUME. I find this comment totally out of line.

I don't think it's out of line. More than once, my boss has told me that the biggest reason why I got my current job was because of how well my cover letter was written. Several people are careless in their writing when they're sitting in front of a computer screen, whether they're sending a formal e-mail or posting an informal message on a board such as this.

People who don't care about their writing in less formal mediums often have a harder time writing well when it matters. If it's really considered "out of line" to criticize someone's grammar/spelling when they're asking for job advice, then no wonder so many people are struggling to find employment. Instead of worrying about what is "out of line" or politically incorrect, some people need to get thicker skin and appreciate the advice.

keenon

bighusker wrote:

some people need to get thicker skin and appreciate the advice.

remember advice should be given if asked for or you have a personal vested interest in seeing a persons going well. and lets be real while we at it if it came down to anyone of us competing for the same job you would try to cut them

bighusker

keenon wrote:

bighusker wrote:

some people need to get thicker skin and appreciate the advice.

remember advice should be given if asked for or you have a personal vested interest in seeing a persons going well. and lets be real while we at it if it came down to anyone of us competing for the same job you would try to cut them

All of that is largely irrelevant. If somebody is giving you advice that will help with your job search, then take it.

keenon

what he offered wasn't advice on a job search its called criticism.. read the beginning of the threads to see what he asked .

bighusker

keenon wrote:

what he offered wasn't advice on a job search its called criticism.. read the beginning of the threads to see what he asked .

Criticism and advice are not mutually exclusive. Too many people are caught up with what's offensive that they can't understand this simple concept.

The OP was wondering why he couldn't advance in the IT Field. Another person chimed in that maybe he should brush up on his grammar and spelling, as that could be a potential reason why his opportunities are lacking. If the OP or anyone else would rather take offense and whine about how mean-spirited that post was, then it's their choice. A person who actually cared about getting ahead would take the advice to heart and at least consider it. It's really quite simple.

garv221

The number one problem for a person not being promoted or making enough money is themselves. People do not like people who complain or blame others. When someone is not happy at work, the first person they blame is the boss & that is wrong. It easier to change yourself than someone else..Alot of people think the boss is there to employ people & get them money..The boss is there to run a busniess, turn a profit & will put people into positions who can assist with that. No handouts.

pretty_boy

bighusker wrote:

Chivalry1 wrote:

drainey wrote:

I don't think it's out of line. More than once, my boss has told me that the biggest reason why I got my current job was because of how well my cover letter was written. Several people are careless in their writing when they're sitting in front of a computer screen, whether they're sending a formal e-mail or posting an informal message on a board such as this.

People who don't care about their writing in less formal mediums often have a harder time writing well when it matters. If it's really considered "out of line" to criticize someone's grammar/spelling when they're asking for job advice, then no wonder so many people are struggling to find employment. Instead of worrying about what is "out of line" or politically incorrect, some people need to get thicker skin and appreciate the a







Grammar/Spelling errors is not the problem, its funny{ } how people can stray away from the truth by creating other issues. Constructive criticism /advice concepts are so open. There is no well defining explanation on what’s Constructive or advisable. I think it’s up to person on receiving end to say rather it’s Constructive or advisable. And remember what you might see as Constructive. I might see it as avoidance. The subject went from race and promotion to grammar/spelling errors. Personally, I think if anybody was trying to be Constructive they would have at least stay into the subject matter itself, instead of creating there own subjects.