CCNA certification/simulation software?

Santillana

I apologize if this question is an old one, or has ended up in the wrong forum section.

I would love to get some advice and input on the Cisco CCNA certification, in particular how, exactly, I would go about crafting my simulation environment.

I have an M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering, and I even have a computer communications course in my pocket, but employers want something harder than kryptonite to prove that you can deliver from second 1 on the job, and Cisco certificates seem to have that hardness and acceptance.

It seems that Todd Lammle and Wendell Odom are the household names as far as the literature. I have Lammle's CCNA book, but I will listen to advice from the more experienced.

I would love not to have to tinker with actual hardware until I am on my first paid CCNA-demanding job so simulation software seems like the answer. Can I buy software that simulates all CCNA-related labs off the shelf without having to (semi-illegally) download Cisco IOS or similar? Where from? Is www.routersim.com recommendable, and are their products complete in this sense?

Would be great to hear from any of this forum's experts. Thank you!

Ivanjam

Sorry to disappoint you as I am not one of the Forum's "experts" but my advice is to download Cisco Packet Tracer.

NetworkVeteran

Santillana wrote:

It seems that Todd Lammle and Wendell Odom are the household names as far as the literature. I have Lammle's CCNA book, but I will listen to advice from the more experienced.

Those two books are good, complete sources for passing your exam(s).

simulation software seems like the answer. Can I buy software that simulates all CCNA-related labs off the shelf without having to (semi-illegally) download Cisco IOS or similar?

In that case, Boson Netsim or Routersim might be better options for you than GNS3 or Packet Tracer. From experience, I can tell you Boson Netsim includes both simulated routers/switches plus about 80 graded labs covering the hands-on aspect in detail.

The only nits I experienced were--(1) the product would be a more efficient tool if they'd identified the 12-16 labs you need to know to pass the exam; (2) Occasionally, maybe 5-10% of the time, they didn't recognize a valid solution; (3) If you delve outside the parameters of those labs, say configuring extra protocols, the simulation will make mistakes.

A paid simulator w/ graded labs is probably the fastest way to get to CCNA.

astrogeek

Santillana wrote: »

I would love not to have to tinker with actual hardware until I am on my first paid CCNA-demanding job

I just have to ask.....why??? Wouldn't you rather have real experience before working on someone's production equipment?

Not that simulators/emulators aren't bad educational tools, I just don't get why you would want to avoid the real deal. For the price of those simulators I'd rather just buy actual equipment. With that said, I think Packet Tracer is what you should look for, that's what CCNA Academy students primarily use and for a free program its about as good as you can get. GNS3 is excellent as well, both free options.

johnifanx98

Santillana wrote: »

I apologize if this question is an old one, or has ended up in the wrong forum section.

I would love to get some advice and input on the Cisco CCNA certification, in particular how, exactly, I would go about crafting my simulation environment.

I have an M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering, and I even have a computer communications course in my pocket, but employers want something harder than kryptonite to prove that you can deliver from second 1 on the job, and Cisco certificates seem to have that hardness and acceptance.

It seems that Todd Lammle and Wendell Odom are the household names as far as the literature. I have Lammle's CCNA book, but I will listen to advice from the more experienced.

I would love not to have to tinker with actual hardware until I am on my first paid CCNA-demanding job so simulation software seems like the answer. Can I buy software that simulates all CCNA-related labs off the shelf without having to (semi-illegally) download Cisco IOS or similar? Where from? Is www.routersim.com recommendable, and are their products complete in this sense?

Would be great to hear from any of this forum's experts. Thank you!

You can buy used hardware on ebay. Since you're EE major, I suppose you have enough knowledge to operate the switch/router by self-teaching. Simulation software is also very necessary especially for new learner. It can demo complex scenario handily. Also, the GUI of such software always gives you details you may miss on hardwares...

NetworkVeteran

astrogeek wrote: »

I just have to ask.....why??? Wouldn't you rather have real experience before working on someone's production equipment?

I use emulators because it is my experience that an emulated 13-device topology with a modern IOS more closely approximates real and certification-exam networks than a few end-of-sale devices. A physical rack that met all my requirements would not be cheap. I can also spin and respin new topologies extremely quickly compared to those with hardware.

Realistically, you're not going to get "work experience" points on an interview with either type of lab, and both lab types provide opportunities to stand out from the crowd.

inscom.brigade

ccna starting out,
!
go packet tracer 5.3 free and fun.
!
(My recommendation) Go to the local college and enroll in a night class: ( Cisco Networking academy).<it is cool!

You should buy a router2621xm $80.00 max, and a switch 2950 $35.00, wendell Odem ICND 1, Lammle, is ok but odem is better.
This is your future, this is allot of work but you have chosen the best, and it is not easy.
We have a rich support group this is one of the better sites, also go to CLN.

Edit:
Oh yeah welcome! good choice stay with it!

Santillana

I am extremely grateful for the lightning (and highly qualified) response. I hope everyone will feel thanked this way, none left out. This forum is even better than its reputation.

I will get back shortly with qualified posts and more exchange on the same note as this.

FloOz

I also recommend cisco packet tracer. Its a very fun way to learn some networking concepts without actually having the gear in front of you.

her.yang

As far as simulation software goes, Packet Tracer should be able to do everything you need for the CCNA. There are only a few quirks I know about, such as PPP authentication but otherwise it's pretty much good to go. Of course there are things you can't do with packet tracer that you will definitely need experience on, such as password breaking devices.

Roguetadhg

I'm not a fan of Packet Tracer. It's a simulator. It's also not open to the public. You'll have to be a Cisco Academy alumni/current student to get access to it.
I recommend Boson NetSim8. It's a public simulator with labs built in and only makes you do the commands, non of the other fiddling.

Boson is still a simulator.

However, if you want a IOS emulator. Look up GNS3. You can potentially use this piece of software upwards CCIE. Why the difference? GNS3 takes real IOS images (You need to find them, don't ask where) and uses that as the foundation for the images. Essentially every router acts like a router - because it is another real router. Just emulated.

There is a downside, switches are supported like routers. Best bet for this is to get hardware, instead, and then connect them up to GNS3. Cool? I just did say you can connect emulated routers to real hardware using your computer.

A simulator is going to be limited in what it can do. I don't like the presentation, formatting, or really anything about Packet Tracer. GNS3 is the best closest thing to the real thing, because it uses the real thing.

Illumanati

Santillana wrote: »

I would love to get some advice and input on the Cisco CCNA certification, in particular how, exactly, I would go about crafting my simulation environment.

Simulation environment(crafting a "lab") if you don't want to buy equipment: I would do one of the Cisco Network Academy courses and the last one is called (Cisco IV)- Accessing the WAN (technologies). This class should be nothing but introducing a technology and subsequently doing labs in Packet Tracer for these WAN technologies. My best advice (and what I'm trying/doing) is A good Cisco IV- Accessing the WAN class with ~ 10 students, an experienced instructor, paying close attention to labbing *experience* and your concurrent test prep practice *as the class is in session* is the best strategy, in the absence of lab equipment or great book+simulator combo.

As far as books for CCNA, I have yet to find a book that can keep me involved for the duration of the book(and labs and practice and so on) but I did find a decent CCENT but that's only half the battle. The reason for that is ICND2 is mainly labbing to get good and no book comes with an emphasis on this nor a great lab simulator except an Academy class, imo.

Roguetadhg

You can make your own labs, Illumanati. You don't have to be boxed into doing what they want you too.

You want to take away an area. It's done.

Actually, I was thinking about crafting a program that rolls a random scenarios...
Like OSPF, EIGRP, RIP, BGP, Redistribution?. How many routers, how many loop backs, how many hosts.

Of course you'd need to actually make the topology and tell the wiring how to go. But if you find it hard to just pull something out of thin air, it would help. But alas, my program with batch files aren't that swell and I don't have a clue where to begin. Maybe javascript. bleh.

Im still trying to theorize how to make a troubleshooting lab. Beyond just a 1 time thing.

spiderjericho

There was a thread recently of someone who had to setup a router and switch:

http://www.techexams.net/forums/off-topic/80691-cisco-router-switch-setup-questions-never-done-before.html

And the thread starter had a CCNA but had no hands-on experience with Cisco hardware. Is it necessary? No. But it'll definitely help and allay any fears from your employer that you're incompetent.

Knowing how to actually console into a device via Cisco Console cable, Rollover to DB-9 adaptor, Console to USB or serial to serial connection is valuable. Packet Tracer is not going to show you how to use Hyperterm, Teraterm, Putty, etc.

There's also dealing with IOS issues like deleted IOS, upgrading the IOS or someone messing with the configuration register.

Having said that, if money is an issue or for ease of use, especially when preparing for CCNA, Packet Tracer is great. The advantage it has over GNS3/IOU/Real Hardware is how easy and quickly you can setup a topology. Also, there's less limit on how big you want to make the topology. It also has multiple simulated device types like VOIP, tablets, work stations, frame-relay cloud, cable modem, etc.

I remember I setup a home with a VOIP phone, router with UCM Express and a cable modem and got it to connect to the cloud. I had slide show of rotating jpegs as the "tv" program.

The main issue with packet tracer is again the physical hardware issues mentioned above (or knowing what port to plug what in or how to make network cable) and unsupported commands. The IOS in packet tracer is not the latest and greatest (15.X) and there are numerous commands like VTP version 3, VTP pruning, some spanning-tree, etc that aren't supported. It can also crash like a mofo.

Roguetadhg

Thats an excellent post, and point.

You don't need the equipment to pass CCNA. You really don't. But there's reasons why you should. For me, whose not in a position with the hardware. I need the hardware. If you work with it day in day out, and work just wanted me to get the certification. I would be happy with emulation/simulation, because I work with it everyday.

Getting on the job and doing it is a different animal altogether. There's been threads about "How to upgrade", "How to troubleshoot", Password resets, etc...

This is one of the reasons that solidify the reasoning behind "Im not going for my CCNP without hardware". Not saying I couldn't. It's been done before. The expectations of CCNP is more than someone with just GNS3/PacketTracer/NetSim8. You're no longer expected to have newbie faults like asking "How do I console into my switch". You're the person that teaches at the Professional Level.

Actually, I'm more apt to spend too much money on hardware these days, to get my hands on time with the equipment. I'm actively looking for a CCNA position. I want to show my potential employers: I got the chops to do what you need, better than the other applicants. While that can be taken as both Confidence and Arrogance, Im going out there for blood so I can get a better life


At the CCNA you're sort-of expected not to have the hands on time. It's safe to assume that you won't have as much knowledge, as much experience, and a lot of 'stupid' questions. I say sort-of because you're also now waving a gigantic flag of criticism - CCNA still has a lot of respect, for being what it is. You can pass the test, and still be called a farse - because you have no recollection of what you did. Congratulations. You spent 300 bucks and just made yourself look like an ass :P

Packet tracer is a program that simulates the IOS, in itself, isn't the IOS. It just looks and feels like real butter. But when you put up the heat and start to cook with it, you realize: !@#$.

Santillana

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

In that case, Boson Netsim or Routersim might be better options for you than GNS3 or Packet Tracer. From experience, I can tell you Boson Netsim includes both simulated routers/switches plus about 80 graded labs covering the hands-on aspect in detail.

The only nits I experienced were--(1) the product would be a more efficient tool if they'd identified the 12-16 labs you need to know to pass the exam; (2) Occasionally, maybe 5-10% of the time, they didn't recognize a valid solution; (3) If you delve outside the parameters of those labs, say configuring extra protocols, the simulation will make mistakes.

Hem. Not fatal, but good to know. Thanks.

Santillana

astrogeek wrote: »

I just have to ask.....why??? Wouldn't you rather have real experience before working on someone's production equipment?

Not that simulators/emulators aren't bad educational tools, I just don't get why you would want to avoid the real deal. For the price of those simulators I'd rather just buy actual equipment. With that said, I think Packet Tracer is what you should look for, that's what CCNA Academy students primarily use and for a free program its about as good as you can get. GNS3 is excellent as well, both free options.

It's not really about the equipment, it's more about me and the stress level I experience when I go hands-on with equipment that doesn't want to do what I want. With a bit of computer simulation behind me, in order to lose excessive respect, and just a tad of friendly colleague guidance, I know I'll be fine even when I land on the job.

Packet Tracer or GNS3 it is, if I go with freeware. Hum. At least GNS3 needs an IOS. Got to rummage about a bit.

Roguetadhg

The only way to manage your stress with working with live equipment is to work with live equipment. Trust me, I've logged too many hours so I can still say this - I'm still scared to think about touching live-equipment. It's why I buying my own before I land a job. I actually have a switch, 3550, on it's way to me. Because I want to atleast calm the fear of "I've never done this before".

huafist

Roguetadhg wrote: »

The only way to manage your stress with working with live equipment is to work with live equipment. Trust me, I've logged too many hours so I can still say this - I'm still scared to think about touching live-equipment. It's why I buying my own before I land a job. I actually have a switch, 3550, on it's way to me. Because I want to atleast calm the fear of "I've never done this before".

To be fair, I don't think the "fear" of touching live equiment ever goes away -especially when it's in a remote location. My butthole puckers up every time I have to make a config change to anything we have that's remote, and especially if I'm doing a kernel upgrade - and I've been doing this for 15 years.

Roguetadhg

huafist wrote: »

To be fair, I don't think the "fear" of touching live equiment ever goes away -especially when it's in a remote location. My butthole puckers up every time I have to make a config change to anything we have that's remote, and especially if I'm doing a kernel upgrade - and I've been doing this for 15 years.

And it rightfully should! I guess it was a poor choice of words. I'm saying you should not be reckless about changes. Use caution when doing things. Make sure to cross the T's and double verify configurations. Just in doing so, don't be so struck with fear that you refuse to do it because you haven't. I'm using the "You" loosely here. In all rights, it could be me. Atleast doing it once, you've done the basics enough that it won't overcome you with fear.

lantech

I really don't think anything is really going to prepare you for working on live equipment except working on live equipment. Even with a home lab I know I can do whatever I want and not worry about it. However when something is live that's not the case and whatever you do might effect end users is a different story. Especially in a large environment.

huafist

Roguetadhg wrote: »

And it rightfully should! I guess it was a poor choice of words. I'm saying you should not be reckless about changes. Use caution when doing things. Make sure to cross the T's and double verify configurations. Just in doing so, don't be so struck with fear that you refuse to do it because you haven't. I'm using the "You" loosely here. In all rights, it could be me. Atleast doing it once, you've done the basics enough that it won't overcome you with fear.

I agree with you - I always double & triple check everything when working with any equipment, especially remote equipment like our routers in the datacenter an hour away lol

Roguetadhg

lantech wrote: »

I really don't think anything is really going to prepare you for working on live equipment except working on live equipment. Even with a home lab I know I can do whatever I want and not worry about it. However when something is live that's not the case and whatever you do might effect end users is a different story. Especially in a large environment.

If you haven't killed the network once, you really haven't done anything any all. Myself, I killed an Uplink to the IDF... What's worse is that it was green-lighted on the IDF side. Lo and behold - the otherside (MDF) was dark. All I did was push the connector in and it lit right up. *shrugs*

I was moving cabling around because we don't have enough switches to cover all the patch panels... I'm not even going to attempt to make the wiring all nice and neat. It just won't happen.

The more I work on the 'live' network, the more that the heated flash of "oh shi- Oh shi. Oh shi." tends to disappear. Did I make people not work? Yep. My bad. But i've also learned something during that time: Check to make sure it can't be, until you've absolutely rulled out the possiblity with good troubleshooting. In this case, I should've checked both sides of the link. I just assumed that if one side was blinking, the other side should be green as well.

huafist

Roguetadhg wrote: »

If you haven't killed the network once, you really haven't done anything any all. Myself, I killed an Uplink to the IDF... What's worse is that it was green-lighted on the IDF side. Lo and behold - the otherside (MDF) was dark. All I did was push the connector in and it lit right up. *shrugs*

I was moving cabling around because we don't have enough switches to cover all the patch panels... I'm not even going to attempt to make the wiring all nice and neat. It just won't happen.

The more I work on the 'live' network, the more that the heated flash of "oh shi- Oh shi. Oh shi." tends to disappear. Did I make people not work? Yep. My bad. But i've also learned something during that time: Check to make sure it can't be, until you've absolutely rulled out the possiblity with good troubleshooting. In this case, I should've checked both sides of the link. I just assumed that if one side was blinking, the other side should be green as well.

I bricked a Mikrotik router a few months ago, but in my defense, it wasn't my fault haha. I was configuring a new route for a new ipsec tunnel to a client, and my mobile card lost signal. It must've screwed up the route, because the router was so bricked that even after getting on-site, I couldn't even connect to it via L2 address - I had to hardware reset it and start from scratch.

lantech

I haven't brought down a network but a partner and I did end up bringing down a fiber connection to a main frame. We were removing old fiber from underneath the floor and this guy had a tendency to pull out stuff way to fast. He always had to go at 110%. We ended up burning the fiber connection that was in use. I tried everything to get him to stop working so fast or to work stupidly doing things like just yanking on fiber that was stuck. The floor underneath that data center was a mess.

Then there was the time I dropped a brand new $5000.00 dollar server.

What a year that was. LOL

NetworkVeteran

lantech wrote: »

Then there was the time I dropped a brand new $5000.00 dollar server.

There was that time a $280,000 linecard was dropped. It was the other guy's fault.

lantech

Oh no, the server was completely my fault. No one else to blame.

Try seeing a million dollar router almost go up in smoke? I was running cable for a very large corporation. The guy in charge from the general contractor wanted to fire up a router with all the line cards installed. We tried to stop him but he just wouldn't listen. The electricians on the job hooked up the power backwards. When he plugged it in it he let the smoke out. Lucky for him the only thing that went up was the power supply. He then tried to blame us for the mistake.

Some people just really suck.

huafist

lantech wrote: »

Oh no, the server was completely my fault. No one else to blame.

Try seeing a million dollar router almost go up in smoke? I was running cable for a very large corporation. The guy in charge from the general contractor wanted to fire up a router with all the line cards installed. We tried to stop him but he just wouldn't listen. The electricians on the job hooked up the power backwards. When he plugged it in it he let the smoke out. Lucky for him the only thing that went up was the power supply. He then tried to blame us for the mistake.

Some people just really suck.

You have to really CYA when you're working in an environment like that with other people. We live in a society where noone wants to take responsibility for their own mistakes, so they will do everything they can to make it "someone else's fault".

Roguetadhg

Yep. Everyone is not at fault. I admit my mistakes though, so when I say "I didn't do it", I mean "I didn't do it". People tend to remember those that admit it and second-guess when you said you didn't. Even that, though, doesn't always work.

By being paranoid about things, you can go back and say "I've emailed you think 5 times, over the course of the 3 weeks for a response. I've heard "It's his fault" so many times you just learn to do your job and don't invovlve people in your personal lives.

Except for inner-department, I have to work with these people, I'd like to make sure that we got a team thing. I have them on facebook... not that I use it, but that's beside the point

It got so bad at times with managers threatening my job - and/or not saying what they said, I was contemplating wearing a wire. I did research on it, actually. Now I don't step outside my office unless theres a ticket, and I ring my bosses whenever another 'situation' appears. Thankfully, I did get my bosses on the phone during one of these situations and things calmed down and it's nice to know they know what bs I put up. What worse, I hear they're (the local managers) are trying to find ways to get my fired and are actively looking for a replacement behind my boss' back. I mentioned my predecessor got fired for sleeping with a supervisior at work, and she's still here? It's depressing to work in an environment where you can't trust anyone you physically work with so I can understand the Cover Your Arse saying to a degree I would hope most don't.

I just got my USB to serial converter! I can't connect it to anything, but whoo! [Subtle subject change] Anyways. Time to read CCNA:Security!

Santillana

Roguetadhg wrote: »

The only way to manage your stress with working with live equipment is to work with live equipment. Trust me, I've logged too many hours so I can still say this - I'm still scared to think about touching live-equipment. It's why I buying my own before I land a job. I actually have a switch, 3550, on it's way to me. Because I want to atleast calm the fear of "I've never done this before".

Very good, as all your other posts. Sometimes we just need to have the wry truth told us.
OK, so taking you up on your word and changing the perspective by about 90 ° - I have two computers. What else, specifically, would I need in the way of physical hardware in order to complete all the CCNA labs?
Are there in fact any lab instructions for this situation (included if you lab in software)? One router, clearly. Which one? A bit of cabling. Would that be all?

Santillana

OK, time for a sum-up so far. Roguetadhg is very knowledgeable, and he holds that hardware is necessary, if not for the exam then at least for the at-work situation. This needs looking into.

Other than that, and as far as the software:

Packet Tracer only comes through Cisco, and Cisco is the most detached and arrogant major vendor I have come across so far. They are going Nokia's (and soon, Microsoft's) way by thinking they can do what they want without minding anyone else.

GNS3 is somewhat attractive, but the IOS remains a problem. Is there in fact any way of actually buying an IOS that would work, not from the uninterested jerks at Cisco but from Juniper/somebody else?

Routersim's and Boson Sim's CCNA-related software products both come at $179 (the market economy seems to be working). Roguetadhg seems to favor Boson Sim out of experience. Has anyone actually experimented with both products? They only work with Windows (bummer!) - can they tend to be sluggish because of the sluggish/mediocre OS they run on?