CCNP with no expirience

thedrama

My holy opinion is, experience describes a magical word by itself. If you ask the reason, i will even not be able to explain it.

The real problem is, even you get a job related to your matters, you might not probably apply them due to conditions, due to your job position. Btw, certification is considered almost a valueless thingy to care around the world as far as i see. No matter how, you have to show your skills by getting a job first then proceed despite negative conditions which prevent you perform what you are capable of.

As a CCNA, i have a terrible situation to proceed on my job. Because, work life is a lot more different than what i theoretically learned. This will be
same for you too.

thedrama

Iristheangel wrote: »

No, We've been pretty clear. Find a job to utilize the CCNA knowledge first and then go after the NP after the CCNA material is solidified from daily use.

She is precisely correct. But, even if you have the fundamentals, you will be able to have difficult times to advance cos both NP level is much more
detailed and requires much effort and depending on the situation, your position in the job may not allow you to apply what you get as knowledge.

waragi

Anybody able to pass the ccie practical lab exam with no experience has to be somebody driven as some would say its Impossible.

neotesla

This topic is somehow relevant to me (although I gather I'm probably a couple of decades older than the OP). Anyway, it might not always be easy to find a job (for various reasons... say, living in backwaters), but focussed study will not go to waste and on top of that it is possible to generate your own "experience" (even if it wouldn't count for much at enterprise level). I keep several important skill areas up to date by using a home R&S lab, computers running a mix of OSs (many of them VM) and giving myself "projects" involving coding or scripting. In addition, I also keep the Cisco, Linux, Windows administration, etc books handy on my e-reader. I spent a lot of free time reading networking stuff on blogs, forums etc (all much more up to date with technologies than your average book).

I am aware that it is the actual hands-on experience that gets the resume out of the bunch (from what I hear, there can be hundreds of applications per vacancy), but even so, once one gets to the interview (which will happen with sufficient number of applications - it's a numbers thing) there are almost always technical questions aimed to quickly scan one's knowledge. All the reading, labbing and home (or school) practice can then come in handy and help the candidate demonstrate that they know what they're actually talking about.

I also agree with a (I suppose somewhat ironic) comment about setting up own business. Only I think it's actually not a bad idea to really get at least some work done under the umbrella of that business (even if at a financial loss). Even if it only means setting up home networking for friends or relatives. That's a start...

docrice

For my two cents, I'll refer to an old post of mine regarding CCNAs trying to find employment but lacking experience:

http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/77709-why-negative-feedback-ccna-no-experience.html#post637940

That said, I think the OP should continue the CCNP studies. But if I were a hiring manager, seeing a CCNP without real-world work experience would make me think you're just a paper tiger. It's okay to have the cert, but usually people have the expectation that you've been-there-done-that to a certain level with a certification attainment like that.

Iristheangel

waragi wrote: »

Anybody able to pass the ccie practical lab exam with no experience has to be somebody driven as some would say its Impossible.

There have been people that have passed the CCIE with almost zero experience. I ran into one a very short time ago and I can tell you that he was the biggest trainwreck I'd ever seen in my life. Some of the common screw-ups this guy did working in an enterprise without the experience: Overcharged, overwired, and bought WAY too much equipment for a small TEMPORARY office build by about $70K just because he didn't speak to the project manager first and get an idea of needs/expectations, built a new site with different VLAN numbers which were different from the enterprise standard because he thought he knew everything already, would randomly assign the same name/extension to different conference rooms which would mess up our enterprise dial plan, ordered T1 lines to the wrong address because he googled the address instead of asking the PM - end result was delaying the move-in by 45 days, made a "slight" adjustment to the DR site ASA (without adhering to change management procedures) which resulted in the VPN tunnel between production and DR being completely deleted and several routes being deleted - we noticed the F-up when the MPLS connection was being FLOODED with traffic, etc etc etc. AND to top it off, he quit after 6 months due to the "stress" of having to work 50 hours weeks and decided that he was going to spend his unemployment studying for another CCIE instead.

Yeah, experience is important. Exams are awesome for the resume and teaching you the fundamentals but a lot of these paper certs I see without experience to back them up lack common sense or fall into a category of thinking they know everything already so they don't need to conform to procedures or standards. Take the baby steps first to have long term success in your career

shodown

^^^^^

I think thats more of the person then the exams. He sounds really bad, I think that wherever he goes he will be a disaster, but those digits get him the calls. Its up to management to be able to ask the right questions.

QHalo

Sounds like you should get rid of your PM as well.

Iristheangel

He's not the first guy that I've seen like this that's a paper cert. I used him as an example. The point is that if you don't back up book knowledge with practical work experience, you won't know what is expected of you in an enterprise and things like this happen. It's not that the guy wasn't technical but he was clueless as far as what was expected of him and I've seen many others go that way. As much as you try to ask questions that weed these people out, you can't always see a lack of common sense until it's too late.

Roguetadhg

I'd have to agree with Iristheangel. Let's face it those that haven't had the experience will more than likely be a hinder and not a help. There's a lot of things that us "No Experience" people haven't learned. Like reaching your hand under the tiles of the raised floor, only to find something soft and squishy... Cables aren't soft and squishy. There was a lot of soap used afterwards...

- Connecting a Console cable to a router.
- Projects.
- Designs.
- Mentoring.

Will usually screw up in the basic areas. Those that see things are "Below them" will get a nasty surprise and then realize that the basics will still apply: Teamwork. And if you're in IT, a lot of long hours.

I've been looking for a position where I could learn. I'm very careful to keep that "I need experience" and "I don't know jack about designing MPLS networks" :P

Certifications will only get you so much. At that point you need to do more leg work than just reading the Cisco Press books.

waragi

Wonderful sounds like somebody great at working on one man projects locked up in a cupboard somewhere.
I would say working in the enterprise is not just getting practical technical experience but being able to work in a team and following company policies.

thedrama

well, nobody was interested in my opinion above. Thanks everybody.

waragi

Todrama I would add would it not help applying for a ccna job with a purely theoretical ccnp?.

MrBrian

Do what you need to do to survive, ha. Just know getting your NP without real world experience will make it a tough sell for employers to bring you in with NP pay, but it will show your dedication. If you do get your NP, go for a CCNA level job and maybe even leave the NP off. You'll move up eventually.

As for me, I got my NP, and don't have NP level experience. I was in more of an administrator role in my last job, but always had higher aspirations. I was exposed to Cisco gear and such, but the environment didn't change much. In the last 1.5 yrs I got my AA degree, CCNA, and CCNP. I've been working at it non-stop like a mad man. I'll tell you one thing, my knowledge base and confidence has grown soooo much in that time.

If you're in it for the long term, would you rather start the journey now or later?

QHalo

See this is where I agree with MrBrian. If you have previous experience in other areas, going for your CCNP isn't that bad. No Cisco certification is going to teach you how to interact with a vendor when ordering a T1 or how to work with a project manager. Those are really bad comparisons to make as a prerequisite to working in an enterprise. You learn that stuff by working with someone who's done it, or by hard knocks. No book can teach you that. There's a distinct difference in not having any experience and not having any network experience.

Either way, its up to an employer to decide if you're worthy having a certification of that caliber and lacking experience. But you should always be challenging yourself and learning. I would venture to say that there is a ton of stuff that people have learned during the CCNP that don't use all of it. Let's be honest, once the WAN is configured in many enterprises you're working on a switch most days. If you're still fiddling around with your WAN and routing protocols, outside of turning up new offices and so forth, then you have bigger issues going on.

thedrama

btw, i wanna kill myself. i try very hard on CCNP Switch, however, can not grasp the required knowledge beyond fundamentals/basics. Can not
count the number of reading exact same topics over and over.

waragi

There is reading and then there is understanding luckily most of ccnp once you understand, it the concepts require almost no rereading.
Switch has a lot of differant topics.

all_day

Go for it. Apply for jobs while you are studying for your CCNP not afterwards, make sure you know the material and study it properly. It shows you are motivated. Most candidates going for an entry level networking job would have CCNA, making a start on your CCNP puts you a step ahead. You will still have to do the hard yards and start at an entry level role like everyone else, but in my view it will give you the edge over CCNA candidates during the interview process. As others have said, make sure you are always improving your knowledge and skills in your own time (use it or lose it). After a year or so you should be close to finishing your CCNP, at which point you will have relevant industry experience and likely be able to move into engineering role having cut your teeth for a year or two in an entry level role.

charlemagne

Titinho wrote: »

I am in the middle of IT vocational school but they leave a lot of gaps, they just tell you the commands to make stuff run but don’t explain how anything works.

So in my free time (which is a lot) I have been studying on my own and got my CCNA and wanted to continue on to the CCNP, but I have read that a CCNP with no work experience raises “red flags”.
What are your opinions about this, I will still study the CCNP material but depending on the responses I might not take the exams

PS: Sorry for any horrible misspell or any weird syntax, English is not my native language

Above all else, do what you truly wish to do. If you want to take this exam and feel you can pass it and can afford it, then go for it. Each of us are unique and my advice is: Do not allow others to dissuade you from something you want to do. If it means something to you, whatever that might be, do it. Don't worry about "red flags" or what a few think. There are no universal rules that determine what one should or should not attempt when it comes to exams. What matters is whether it means something to you. I think it does and it's up to you. If you can and wish to take it, why not? The future is unwritten and no one can honestly predict what is "best" for someone else. It's up to you. Good luck and if you choose to take it, you will have accomplished something positive.

Iristheangel

I don't want to come across as wanting to discourage someone from getting a certification. In fact, I wholeheartedly support going as far as you can with a certification but remember that certifications compliment experience and not replace it. While I know there are some anecdotal stories of people getting entry level jobs with a CCNP, look at some of the older posts on this forum from people that asked similar questions. As I recall, some of our esteemed networking veterans who are in a position to hire stated that if they saw someone without experience touting a professional level certification, they either must be AMAZINGLY talented to stand out to them or they write them off as a paper cert and move on. Do a search for some of NetworkVeteran and Forsaken's old posts to see some of the kind of questions that you better be prepared to understand and answer in an interview. And then there's also skill fade: if you aren't using it, you're losing it.

As I said, there's no rush. Jump into a job. Get your feet wet and once you start going, pick up those CCNP books. You'll find that the information will be retained easier when you have a real world as a lab to build and troubleshoot

mattau

has anyone moved cities for a job(nothing lined up prior to moving) I feel it will be my only option if i was to get into anything technical

waragi

One has to normally go where the jobs are and not the other way round.
But it can be a expensive exercise and with a family very difficult.

mattau

hmm yeah, I have been calculating the costs and its not going to be cheap and leaving family behind.
I guess some people can do it some cant

charlemagne

Iristheangel wrote: »

I don't want to come across as wanting to discourage someone from getting a certification. In fact, I wholeheartedly support going as far as you can with a certification but remember that certifications compliment experience and not replace it. While I know there are some anecdotal stories of people getting entry level jobs with a CCNP, look at some of the older posts on this forum from people that asked similar questions. As I recall, some of our esteemed networking veterans who are in a position to hire stated that if they saw someone without experience touting a professional level certification, they either must be AMAZINGLY talented to stand out to them or they write them off as a paper cert and move on. Do a search for some of NetworkVeteran and Forsaken's old posts to see some of the kind of questions that you better be prepared to understand and answer in an interview. And then there's also skill fade: if you aren't using it, you're losing it.

As I said, there's no rush. Jump into a job. Get your feet wet and once you start going, pick up those CCNP books. You'll find that the information will be retained easier when you have a real world as a lab to build and troubleshoot

I choose not to list all the degrees and certifications I have earned and deleted what few I did list. I'm one of the "paper cert" individuals that you described as though all people are the same and I was reminded of something akin to an ancient Greek tragedy. Experience is important. Yet, in any job one will ultimately have to prove yourself. Years ago, I entered the market with nothing but several advanced degrees and other things that are the essence of the "red flags" you described in a previous post. I succeeded. It isn't an anecdote.
When you look at the current unemployment figures broken down by industry you see something that is a sad reality in today's economic situation: Many experienced, educated, motivated professionals are forced to transition into a new industry altogether. If there is any "rule" that currently has any validity it is: Uncertainty.
When I read others advice I cannot fathom the logic of some. What one thinks is true another will say the opposite and, perhaps, they're both correct since each individual is unique and behind the degrees, the nice letters after one's name, certifications, etc...there is a person. "No experience" does not equal unqualified and having no experience is certainly no guarantee of failure.
Experience comes in many forms and when told one "shouldn't" or "can't" succeed in a particular endeavor, I am reminded of a woman that was from the day she was born often told she would fail, would not nor could not be anything but a failure. However, she defied the endless numbers of people that said "you can't do it."
She did. Her name was Helen Keller.
So, I read "advice" here with more than a grain of salt and recall her words: "I am only one, but still am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will NOT refuse to do something that I can do."
I think if someone wants to take an exam and has the ability to pass and wants to do it for whatever reason, then they have free will, the freedom to make that choice. If passing will mean something to them, even in a manner no one else can understand, it isn't a question of "why" but rather "why not?"
It isn't up to me to advise someone what they should or shouldn't do. I will do what I wish, take any exam I desire (if allowed) and it matters not a whit to me what someone here thinks. If I would have followed some of the "advice" given here, then I wouldn't be in my current position. The best advice is history and I mean by this looking at the many who were told they can't but did and the world is better for it.

waragi

nice post, thank you , as for the certifications complimenting experience how many people can say they are in a position where they use the complete CCNP syllabus , is the percentage maybe 50 percent or much lower.

Iristheangel

@Charlemagne - I'm really happy it worked out for you and it was probably best that you don't list all your certifications because having too many or too broad of ones will misrepresent your knowledge base since there is the "use it or lose it" factor of material you learn (Which is why I don't list half of my certs anymore) but saying "I succeeded so therefore other people will succeed this way" is, by definition, anecdotal. My posts had nothing to do with trying to discourage people and 100% to do with the reality of the IT field. Can someone succeed with getting professional and advanced level certifications WITHOUT experience to compliment it? Sure. But those tend to be the exception to the rule, not the other way around. Think about it this way: Learning subject material without using it daily or even weekly is hard enough. Leaving intermediatary and beginning subjects behind to learn advanced subjects is harder. How can that person expect to retain that information without skillfade? I'm sure there are amazing people that have EXCEPTIONAL information retention skills but this is not norm.

I would recommend to the OP to check these articles/threads out:
Top 7 Certification Mistakes - Avoid These Certification Mistakes - Number 2 mistake
Getting Your First I.T. Job - Mistake number 2
http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/51471-can-too-many-certs-hurt-your-job-oppurtunities.html - An oldie but a goodie thread on here A bunch of hiring managers chimed in and gave some great input.

drefoq80

charlemagne wrote: »

I choose not to list all the degrees and certifications I have earned and deleted what few I did list. I'm one of the "paper cert" individuals that you described as though all people are the same and I was reminded of something akin to an ancient Greek tragedy. Experience is important. Yet, in any job one will ultimately have to prove yourself. Years ago, I entered the market with nothing but several advanced degrees and other things that are the essence of the "red flags" you described in a previous post. I succeeded. It isn't an anecdote.
When you look at the current unemployment figures broken down by industry you see something that is a sad reality in today's economic situation: Many experienced, educated, motivated professionals are forced to transition into a new industry altogether. If there is any "rule" that currently has any validity it is: Uncertainty.
When I read others advice I cannot fathom the logic of some. What one thinks is true another will say the opposite and, perhaps, they're both correct since each individual is unique and behind the degrees, the nice letters after one's name, certifications, etc...there is a person. "No experience" does not equal unqualified and having no experience is certainly no guarantee of failure.
Experience comes in many forms and when told one "shouldn't" or "can't" succeed in a particular endeavor, I am reminded of a woman that was from the day she was born often told she would fail, would not nor could not be anything but a failure. However, she defied the endless numbers of people that said "you can't do it."
She did. Her name was Helen Keller.
So, I read "advice" here with more than a grain of salt and recall her words: "I am only one, but still am one. I cannot do everything, but still I can do something; and because I cannot do everything, I will NOT refuse to do something that I can do."
I think if someone wants to take an exam and has the ability to pass and wants to do it for whatever reason, then they have free will, the freedom to make that choice. If passing will mean something to them, even in a manner no one else can understand, it isn't a question of "why" but rather "why not?"
It isn't up to me to advise someone what they should or shouldn't do. I will do what I wish, take any exam I desire (if allowed) and it matters not a whit to me what someone here thinks. If I would have followed some of the "advice" given here, then I wouldn't be in my current position. The best advice is history and I mean by this looking at the many who were told they can't but did and the world is better for it.

One word: Refreshing!