What about an Experience Certificate?

I've been discussing somthing in another forum about what counts most to an interviewer; Certification or Experience?

You see the main argument for the Certified person is that they have wonderful knowledge of theory in terms of how something "should" be done. On the other hand the experienced person would only have knowledge on that which he/she has ran across before (in terms of hardware, toubleshooting, diagnosing, etc.).

The main argument for the Experienced person is that they know what to do and have done it before, therfore they would take less time and get the job done right. On the other hand there may be a new problem out there that they have not ran across and therfore would need a certified person, who at least has a theory of what to do, to tell them what they need to do in order to fix the problem.

My question is this: With all the arguments on both sides of the table, why hasn't anyone combined both efforts to make, what I'll call for the time being, an "Experienced Certification". A certification that tests on all the book work knowledge (like A+), but would also test physically on say 15 or more real world random situations i.e. troubleshooting from each section of the written exam (A+). Or maybe just that as an exam in itself that you could add to your A+ qualifications, to where A+ would be a prerequisite certification for taking this physical experience certification.

Seriously, what are your thoughts on this?

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garv221

duckduckduck wrote:

having taken the A+, I did find it to be a bit laughable but it was the toughest "joke" I've ever had to tackle.

Correct me if I am wrong, but it looks to be the only cert you have.

Also like you mentioned, the reason people don't call MCP and Cisco certs a joke is because they are not. Its that simple, the general public respects them. However, A+ kind of died out with VCR repair. When there is smoke there is usually fire & people agree the cert isn't worth anything. I honestly think you’re fighting a loosing battle with the A+ stand. Direct that energy towards Sec+ or MCP status.

duckduckduck

I'm getting my MCP next Thursday.

And don't worry about me, I'm set for life already

Also, I think you are the second one who has missed this excerpt of my post:

human resources and the public in general value the A+ greatly because CompTIA has marketted the hell out of it.

Not that I need the endorsement - like I said, I only did it for the extra ching because I am a money-grubbing whore.

Still, you guys shouldn't be so harsh on those who have worked hard for this one. With the US economy in the shape it's in for us technical folks these days, it's not as easy as it was for us vets to break into the industry anymore...

scot_donecker

However, A+ kind of died out with VCR repair. When there is smoke there is usually fire & people agree the cert isn't worth anything. I honestly think you’re fighting a loosing battle with the A+ stand. Direct that energy towards Sec+ or MCP status.

Excuse me, but if A+ died out, then why do almost every job on monster.com related to computer services (not networking) require it? And I wish I could reach through the computer and slap you silly for saying "people agree this cert isn't worth anything". If that was truely the case (as it is NOT), then why is there a forum on this site for it? Check the forum out, because this cert means alot to most of us.

You don't see us bashing certs that we don't have, just because were to ignorant to understand them. I am going to say this again, and again, and again if I have to, to get my point across...Don't bash something that you have no idea about; if you have'nt done it, then you can't truthfully say anything HONEST about it. And I am sure that the people saying the cert isn't worth anything, don't have it. It's people like you that try to talk things down, so that it seems as if you have a clue what your talking about, when in reality you would'nt know the truth if it ran right up and smacked you in the face.

Thats it.

Ricka182

Look, before this gets too nasty....people who say it's worthless, don't need it, therefore, they won't study any related material, keep up to date with it's technologies, etc.. For those of us who do hold the cert, or are working on it, it's obviously very worthwhile. I wouldn't have my current job if not for A+, although as I've stated previously, I rarely use those skills learned. A+, just like any cert is only worth as much the person values it. If you have absolutly zero experience with computers, and you want into IT, A+ is going to give you the core basics of computing, hardware and software alike. Not to mention, when A+ was introduced, half the certs available today did not even exist, so as more newer certs are released, older certs lose "value" to some. If one holds MCSE, and they work in an MCSE enviroment, there is no need for A+, because they probably do mostly software work; and if they do need to do some hardware work, todays hardware makes it easy for a child to put together a computer. Look inside a Dell box....no screws for the components. Just flip a lever, or switch and the drives slip out, the cpu pops off, the cards are freed. Yes, a lot of the A+ material is out-dated, but some companies still use legacy systems, and as a PC Tech, you would need to be familiar with that. Someone who deals primarily with networks has no need for A+. The same way a PC Tech has no need for CCNA. The reason we go a certain cert is to either advance within the company, or change direction in IT. Being a money-whore is also a good reason, but not a primary reason, as if you didn't get a pay raise, would you still go for it. I wouldn't, as others said, if you don't need it, concentrate on what you do, what you need, and what you enjoy, probably in that order. Work and IT education is not supposed to be fun. We work for years, to be able to retire and have fun. Of course, those advance themselves above and beyond will have greater opputunities, but not everyone does. Again, and again, and again, ALL certs have a value only for those who hold it.

woodworm

Just read this thread with interest (and the other one that was linked to) and to be honest I don't really understand why you're getting so upset?

Nearly everyone has agreed that the A+ is a worthwhile certificate - just because everyone regards it as entry level it doesn't mean they think it was easy? (you learn to walk before you can run, but learning to walk was hard in the first place! - not that I remember of course but you know what I mean ....)

I haven't done A+ because in the UK it's not worth doing for the certification - I am sure the knowledge is worth 110% as I don't know anything that isn't worth knowing (if you get my meaning?). No one in the UK asks for the A+, not even to be a PC technician.

The only cert I have done is the Win XP MCP (270) and I'm sure everyone else here would agree that's it's one of the easiest certs but I'm not going to get upset by that because I would agree with them (especially after failing the 290).

Anyway, it seems that the A+ is one of your first certificates, so doesn't that mean it's your entry level cert as well?

I will shut up now!

Plantwiz

scot_donecker wrote:

Excuse me, but if A+ died out, then why do almost every job on monster.com related to computer services (not networking) require it?

Because it is like saying someone needs to be a high school graduate (in the US).

High school isn't difficult, it is a process. Same with A+. When a person is prepared, the exam is easy. When they are not, it is more challenging. Each test applicant reacts unique to their own 'nerves' and answers questions to the best of their understanding.

The exam isn't 'easy' in the sense that everyone in the world should pass it on first try....it is 'easy' in that it deals with things that I had dealt with over my career and was a pretty straight-forward exam. Nothing is 'tricky'.

I've been reading these threads and I really do not understand why you are being so sensitive to others opinions. If you took the A+, and you thought it was a difficult exam and you were well prepared and passed....why care what others think?

A+ is marketed as an 'entry-level' certification, period.

Please review CompTIA's website and you will see it there in black and white.

A+ people should not expect to see the same level of pay, nor the same level of praise as the higher-level, much more difficult to come by, well earned Cisco, MS or other specific vendor certs....A+ is on the low end of the pay scale for training. A person does not need to be a genius to pass the exam....merely persistent. Persistence makes a good technician

I know people earning a good living and they are doing A+ level work. Non-computer people skill look at A+ people as 'gods' The others in the industry are not tossing their noses up at the A+, but get tired of here about all the hard work people put into an A+....GUESS WHAT? There is a ton more work to put forth to earn higher level certificates.

A+ is not a certificate that should be dropped off. While it is an exciting time for those who pass, there is much more work ahead if people are willing to chose a career route in the industry and design/maintain networks.

A+ isn't about networks. It is about single workstations WITH a couple points about networking in the event the candidate will be handling workstations attached to a network...a little overlap.....very little overlap into networking and CompTIA's most frequently taken vendor-neutral 2nd test.

The value is where you see it Scot....don't worry about if others think it has value. Many jobs don't require it. Some do. Some people have a thousand times more experience than necessary to hold an A+. So please stop saying that people without the A+ only say it's worthless because they never prepared for it. IT IS NOT MANDATORY for everyone to have it. The more people holding an A+ the less value it holds across the market. At one time in our history a High School grad was 'special'/rare. Even 30 years ago a college Grad was praised. Today it is almost assumed everyone will graduate with some degree. Many do not have to....they are entrepreneurs, futures family people, end up taking a job and enjoying it....thereby wasting their time in college.

You do what is right for you. Let others decide for themselves.

duckduckduck

(from the other thread linked here)

Plantwiz wrote:

I still disagree with anyone thinking that the A+ is:
1. Entry Level
2. Waste of time

So which is it? Entry level or not???

scot_donecker

I see your points, but your acting as if its ok to call somthing what its not. I do not see the sense in that. If your telling me that its ok that people have their own opinion, I'm tottally cool with that (as long as your opinion isn't ignorant). I just hate when people who have not taken it, regard it as something they heard someone else say (worthless). I just think its wrong to judge somthing when you have no idea about what your judging.

I don't like A+ being called a joke (yes some have appoligized for it, but some others still call it that), and I for one am not going to let it happen. Being the A+ moderator, I would think you would have somthing more to say about it (and you have in other threads so why hold your tougue now?).

Sorry if you think I'm sensetive about it, but I always fight for what I think is right. And I feel calling A+ a joke, or worthless, or not speaking up about it is just plain wrong. And I am not saying easy anymore, I was wrong for saying I was mad about it being called easy, but a joke and worthless are somthing else entirely.

I'm not mad that A+ is being called "entry level" anymore, because I understand it is an entry level cert now; I will comprimise with that. Just don't call it a joke or worthless, esspecially if you don't know what the hell your talking about in the first place, because you for a FACT don't hold the cert (those who hold the cert will not call it worthless, maybe in the sense of money, but not in the sense of knowledge. No knowledge is ever worthless).

Thats what I think, its MY opinion.

dsa1971

I think scot_donecker's frustration stems from the "A+ sucks", "A+ is worthless", "A+ is a joke" posts which are unneccesary and stink of elitism. I've seen far too many posts (less here than in other forums) of A+ bashing or Comptia bashing in general. A lot of people come here not only to learn but for some level of encouragement and motivation from others who they have seen work hard and achieve certifications. I have nothing against people being critical of A+ or Comptia or other certs but "A+ is worthless" comments really serve no point except maybe to make someone who has worked hard to achieve the cert feel a little less accomplished. I'm not saying that this forum has to turn into the touchy feely everybody be happy cert forum

but most of the negative comments really serve no purpose.

scot_donecker

Thank you dsa1971, my frustration partly is from those other threads and forums, but also some of the bashing has happend at least twice in this specific thread, and that's why I am so frustrated.

Plantwiz

duckduckduck wrote:

(from the other thread linked here)

Plantwiz wrote:

I still disagree with anyone thinking that the A+ is:
1. Entry Level
2. Waste of time

So which is it? Entry level or not???

Good one!

Yep, I'm human

In that particular context I wanted to convey that 'entry-level' didn't mean it had to be benethe someone or they were not dumbing themselves down by holding that certificate.

In this tiring debate, it is an entry-level position in that there are many people with tons of experience who will NOT benefit from adding an A+ cert to their resume.

*****

Scot asked:

Being the A+ moderator, I would think you would have somthing more to say about it (and you have in other threads so why hold your tougue now?).

1. I don't often post in forum that are not mine.
2. I disagree in the way this threat has drifted and the debate that is going on....though now it looks as though people have come to an understanding with each other. Keep in mind, we have posters from all over the globe. What flys in the US may not in Europe, Austraila, or Asia. And even when things may apply in one area of the US, it doesn't apply across the whole US.

AND
I wasn't real keen on seeing the "those who haven't taken it recently cannot say if it is hard or not"

Like you know what it was like 5,6,7 years ago? Can you use Debug commands? Maybe? point being we should help each other and not b1tch about if it was harder or easier...when a new person has a question, we answer it. When a season person requires some input, we provide it, period.

3. What is it you want me to say? It is valid for those who need it. Many do not. Too many hold one who should not....and we have our flood of certified people bumping into each other looking for the same job.

This can be a similarly applied arguement to Martial Artists and the 'worth' of dan ranking between the various schools. A black belt only carries worth to the individual and his/her Sensei. They don't cross over and it is near impossible to say if a TaeKwonDo practicitioner has more or less knowledge than an Aikido practictioner....it's different philosophy.

dsa1971

scot_donecker wrote:

Thank you dsa1971, my frustration partly is from those other threads and forums, but also some of the bashing has happend at least twice in this specific thread, and that's why I am so frustrated.

no problem. I do agree with Plantwiz on some of what he said in that you just have to try not worry what other people have to say about it. If you learned something from getting A+ certified and it has value to you then that's a good thing so don't let others get you down with their negative comments.

scot_donecker

I wasn't real keen on seeing the "those who haven't taken it recently cannot say if it is hard or not" icon_wink.gif Like you know what it was like 5,6,7 years ago?

Good point Plantwiz, you see, I too am a victim of speculation, because I heard that the A+ cert tests changed only recently (within the past 5 years) to being more standardized, useful, etc. So I do appoligize for that, my bad.

But did you read the last three posts before you posted?

point being we should help each other and not b1tch about if it was harder or easier...when a new person has a question, we answer it. When a season person requires some input, we provide it, period.

3. What is it you want me to say? It is valid for those who need it. Many do not.

In there I said that it wasn't about people saying its "entry level" or easier, because I understand now and what people mean by it. I was asking you why you held your toungue to the bashing (joke, worthless, useless, thats considered bashing no matter what side of the world your on), when I had seen you post against bashing in other threads.

Thanks everyone for all the replies

Plantwiz

In there I said that it wasn't about people saying its "entry level" or easier, because I understand now and what people mean by it. I was asking you why you held your toungue to the bashing (joke, worthless, useless, thats considered bashing no matter what side of the world your on), when I had seen you post against bashing in other threads.

'cause I'm getting old and the argument is tiring

You were doing a fine job

dsa1971

Plantwiz wrote:

In there I said that it wasn't about people saying its "entry level" or easier, because I understand now and what people mean by it. I was asking you why you held your toungue to the bashing (joke, worthless, useless, thats considered bashing no matter what side of the world your on), when I had seen you post against bashing in other threads.

'cause I'm getting old and the argument is tiring
You were doing a fine job

filkenjitsu

Dude, Take the 70-290 MCP Exam and tell me the A+ was harder!

Have you had questions that have 3 paragraphs and give you 5 multiple choice answers that are 3 sentances each??

70-270 is mild
70-271 is easier than 70-270 (MCDST)
70-272 is about equal to 70-271
70-290 was difficult. I even had 2 instructor led classes in this subject, read through the entire MOC book with a highlighter and used 3 different practice exams.

I got a 700 out of 1000 (lucky me)

Microsoft likes to play with your head with their questions, they are not straightforward at all. You will see.

johnnynodough

wow, I knew there was a reason I steered clear of this thread.

"Cant we all just get along?"
Dont forget those immortal words

garv221

scot_donecker wrote:

Excuse me, but if A+ died out, then why do almost every job on monster.com related to computer services (not networking) require it?

First & foremost any job that does not have anything to do with networking is a bench-tech job making $8.00 an hour. A security guard at the local lumber yard brings in more money than that.

You don't see us bashing certs that we don't have, just because were to ignorant to understand them.

I highly doubt ignorant, you don’t hear me bashing other certs either, I only feel A+ CAN be a waste of time.By all means bash CCNA or CCNP. It does not make a difference or bother me. I don't have a favorite certification or a "thing" for any cert, I just strive toward where the market is going, where I need to gain more skills & ultimately where the money is. A+ reminds me of Notre Dame’s Rudy. Lol, If it was in my best interest to get it, I would have it.. I have fixed countless computers, had college courses covering A+, been through PC hardware repair classes & read PC books.

I am going to say this again, and again, and again if I have to, to get my point across...Don't bash something that you have no idea about; if you haven’t done it, then you can't truthfully say anything HONEST about it.

To be truthfully honest I would bet I know more about this topic/A+ than you. Considering my position in IT, my experience and educational background, after all a certification is not a true representation of one person’s capability & I can honestly say I know my PC repair very well as it is part of my role in IT. PC repair is general knowledge in IT. A+ applies like addition in mathematics. You have to know how to add to fully understand and use trigonometry. My point is, getting a certificate in mathmatics field of addition(A+) is pretty minor considering there are A LOT more difficult in-demand positions out there that require more knowledge to be used & that knowledge can be represent by a certification (Cisco, MS- ie Trig.). And in your case you will argue that statement by saying A+ is tough or A+ & networking/systems are two different fields & that’s fine. I just choose a path for me that had challenges & high pay in it. I will leave the hard work and under pay to the A+ techs then.

filkenjitsu

The A+ exam does require VOLUMES of information to be memorized, but I do not think it is something that has a lot of hard Logic to hit.

When you have to subnet and cover DHCP and DNS messaging, Supersetting, etc, those require you to sit down and write it out and come to a conclusion.

Knowing which type of battery is best for what application and knowing what IRQ points to what hardware device, etc is really Trivia knowlege. Now, that kind of knowlege takes a lot of time to memorize and there is a ton of it etc.

I guess the main point of the rebuttle to your argument is that While the A+ has volumes of info to memorize, etc, you will never make as much money with it as you would haveing a CCNP.

Do you have to know everything an A+ person knows about PC's as a CCNP? NOT AT ALL! Not even close! They are just looking inside of internet Appliance boxes and setting network settings, etc. They design network layouts, etc, but they may not know jack about what the best type of battery is for every situation.

The reason why the A+ cert is "entery level" even with the volumes of info you need to memorize is because you would be hard pressed ever making more than 11 or 12$ MAX with just the A+ Knowlege.

I have see A+ jobs start at 7.50 an hour before.... A CCNP is looking at 12 or 13$ minimum at the start of his career with very little exp. Once you get a couple years of experience with your CCNP, then you are making as much as a lot of people with bachelors degrees, etc.

With the A+ knowlege and skill ALONE, even with 4 or 5 years experience, you will hit a low price ceiling. Because the job an A+ does is pretty trivial and Many Many people can do it.