What are the odds of starting a career in IT w/out a degree?

rockinlalkanomicon

Is it possible to start a career in the IT field without a college degree? I am currently preparing for both the A+ and N+ certs in hopes of finding an entry level position somewhere in the Seattle area. I realize in order to have a career in that field I will need more training/certs. I am simply curious as to whether or not there were any other certs, aside from A+ and N+, that will help me "get my foot in the door" so to speak.

Ricka182

On the opposite coast, I'll tell you, not very good. I have military experience as opposed to a degree, and sometimes, I wish it the other way around. I got my current job, but it's a joke in itself. Most postings here require a degree, or say it's a big plus to have one.

dsa1971

If it is at all possible for you I highly recommend getting an associates degree at minimum and preferably a bachelors. It's much much more difficult to find a job without a bachelors degree.

Ten9t6

It can be done....I don't have one. (still working on it)

You will eventually get to a point where experience will stand out, over a degree. But, in the beginning, it does really help. Until then, you will have to go through a lot of 'NO's before you get a 'Yes'.

Kenny

dsa1971

Ten9t6 wrote:

It can be done....I don't have one. (still working on it)

You will eventually get to a point where experience will stand out, over a degree. But, in the beginning, it does really help. Until then, you will have to go through a lot of 'NO's before you get a 'Yes'.

Kenny

I agree to an extent. I've known a few programmers with lots of experience but no degree who were not even considered for some positions because they did not have a bachelor's degree.

keenon

i did it and have been for more than 5 years in the game... its more about drive, knowledge and showing someone (in decision making) that your able to do the work or willing to do what it takes don't let anyone tell you otherwise..

i recently went to school during a down period and got 20hrs toward my associates degree in a single semester.
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as far as some jobs they just simply want a degree in anything to get the job,

lordy

Just like Keenon I have been in the game for 5 years without a degree so it can be done.

Now that I'm going through a time of unemployment I notice how difficult it can be but it's really about showing people that you 'get the job done'.

Regards,
Lordy

dsa1971

keenon wrote:

i did it and have been for more than 5 years in the game... its more about drive, knowledge and showing someone (in decision making) that your able to do the work or willing to do what it takes don't let anyone tell you otherwise..

i recently went to school during a down period and got 20hrs toward my associates degree in a single semester.
\
\

as far as some jobs they just simply want a degree in anything to get the job,

showing is the operative word in your reply. there are many companies who see your resume without a degree listed on it and will never call you for an interview.

I certainly don't disagree that it can be done but the road is a little bumpier.

keenon

dsa1971 wrote:

keenon wrote:

i did it and have been for more than 5 years in the game... its more about drive, knowledge and showing someone (in decision making) that your able to do the work or willing to do what it takes don't let anyone tell you otherwise..

i recently went to school during a down period and got 20hrs toward my associates degree in a single semester.
\
\

as far as some jobs they just simply want a degree in anything to get the job,

showing is the operative word in your reply. there are many companies who see your resume without a degree listed on it and will never call you for an interview.

I certainly don't disagree that it can be done but the road is a little bumpier.

thats where the drive comes in follow up on resumes sent out don't sit there like a rock in mud. i sent out and followed up on so many that i have met ppl that invite me to come down and speak with them, purely on the fact that i took the initiative...... losing is one thing but failing b/c your lazy is your fault

duckduckduck

Unfortunately, a lot of employers associate "earning a degree" with "taking the initiative", after all - you are most likely going to be at the mercy of a non-technical human resources goon who themselves had to earn a degree.

As a college dropout, I consider myself extremely lucky to be employed right now in a company that requires Bachelor degrees of all of their employees.

I'd say go for the degree while you have the chance. Beating the system like I did usually takes more work than abiding by it in the first place...

perljavageek

duckduckduck wrote:

Unfortunately, a lot of employers associate "earning a degree" with "taking the initiative", after all - you are most likely going to be at the mercy of a non-technical human resources goon who themselves had to earn a degree.

As a college dropout, I consider myself extremely lucky to be employed right now in a company that requires Bachelor degrees of all of their employees.

I'd say go for the degree while you have the chance. Beating the system like I did usually takes more work than abiding by it in the first place...

I absolutely agree with this assessment. I have a lot to say on this, so bear with me. Hopefully what I can add will help someone out there (maybe even you)!

Certifications can help you a lot (*especially* without a degree) -- but get the degree, too, if you can. Yes, it is *possible* to start an IT career without a degree. I know lots of people that have. But it's not just starting that counts. Long term you're much better off with the degree.

If you're very technically proficient, chances are a lot better that you'll be able to do well without a degree, but there are no guarantees. The IT job market has been very up-and-down, relying heavily on the business/economic climate. Having a degree really can open career doors, and can make it easier to move within a company or to other jobs. Statistically, you stand a good chance of making a lot more money over the life of your career, too.

I live in Utah, and have a Associate of Science in Computer Science. Here is my experience, without a BS degree, in the workforce.

================

In 1999, while working in the college's CS lab as a programming tutor, nearly all of my classmates in the program were working in IT, and I kept hearing about how important experience is. Fearing that I wouldn't be ready for the real world upon graduation (and attracted by the money), I found a local internship of sorts. After a year there, I jumped to a full-time programming job with a web hosting shop. This was right about the time that the IT bubble was bursting.

I was laid off 9 months later.

Fortunately, I immediately landed another programming job -- but got laid off again after 9 months.

That was right before 9/11. After that, it was 2 1/2 very rough years where we just scraped by. I sold cable door-to-door, did phone support for the post office, and had about 3 other crappy, crappy jobs.

In-between jobs, lacking a bachelor's degree handicaps you terribly; especially in a down economy. Only rarely could I even get through the door for an interview.

Looking back, I'm fairly certain that our life would have been easier had I just stayed in school. However, I developed service and communication skills over those 2+ years, and those qualities helped me to land my current job as a Systems Analyst / Support Engineer. Previously, I'm not sure I would have ever even considered a job like this -- and yet it's a perfect fit for me.

I did make more money as a programmer (I take home about 10% less now), but I often disliked programming as a job. Tying business deadlines to software development took all the joy out of it for me, I think. So, in the end, this has worked out great.

Going through tough times also helped me to gain a more mature attitude and perspective. I learned how to roll with the punches a lot better.

It seems like everyone I know that works in IT -- but doesn't have a degree -- is still in it because they either 1) had luck go their way, 2) were very persistent, or 3) both. I work with some very smart people, who spend all day on technical issues, but have degrees in areas of study other than IT. Sometimes their lack of understanding baffles me. Still, they figure out ways to get the job done.

By the same token, I have a buddy that finished his BSCS with an emphasis in Networking, and he couldn't buy a job. Now he drives a big rig. True, he wasn't the swiftest techie I've known, but he was better than some of the people I currently work with.

So if you can figure it out, maybe you can explain it to me.

At one job I had, my lead was a Perl guru who made truckloads of money. He didn't have a degree, but prior to that job he had worked for a decade at Silicon Graphics, and he was a true wiz. Another guy on our team there had a degree in Finance, but he had taught himself C and could code circles around the guys I was in school with. Then they had Project Managers and Systems Analysts who couldn't write up a clean spec, let alone make a sensible database schema.

To sum up: if you don't you have a degree, you have to be a) good AND lucky, or b) at least very lucky. It's pretty hard to bank on that second one. If you have a degree, you don't necessarily have to even be good, I've found. Yeah, it's f***ed up, but that's often how it goes.

Finally: you didn't say why you don't have a degree, if you have plans to pursue one, and why or why not. You might consider taking classes from Western Governor's University -- www.wgu.edu -- an accredited, nearly 100% online school. This is what I'm doing to finish my degree. It's extremely affordable (about $5k/year), and much more legitimate (IMHO) than the University of Phoenix, the apparently popular non-traditional choice these days. I talked to UoP about transferring, and their bachelor IT programs were a joke. If you truly care about your education, just say no to UoP. Not to mention the fact that you'll pay through the nose.

Whatever you decide, I wish you success!

dsa1971

perljavageek wrote:

At one job I had, my lead was a Perl guru who made truckloads of money. He didn't have a degree, but prior to that job he had worked for a decade at Silicon Graphics, and he was a true wiz. Another guy on our team there had a degree in Finance, but he had taught himself C and could code circles around the guys I was in school with. Then they had Project Managers and Systems Analysts who couldn't write up a clean spec, let alone make a sensible database schema.

hee! hee! you said specs and schema! At the company I work at I would kill to get anything more than verbal "specs" or a 2 sentence email "describing" the work that needs to be done.

jescab

same here.......

ajs1976

I got into a fulltime job without a degree about 6 years ago, but this was with some college and an internship. Although you can get a job without the degree, it is harder.

If you have the oppurtunity to get a bachelors now, I would go for it. It is a lot harder to get when you have a job, wife, house, etc.

JDMurray

dsa1971 wrote:

hee! hee! you said specs and schema! At the company I work at I would kill to get anything more than verbal "specs" or a 2 sentence email "describing" the work that needs to be done.

Mega-ditto. I would kill just to get an MRD from marketing let alone a functional spec. Nobody wants to think ahead about what kind of product the customers want, and then the engineers get blamed for turning out a marginal software app. Would you live in a house that was built without using any blueprints? Well, most of the software that we are all using has been built just that way.

Like I keep telling the TLA's: "It's good to have a plan!"

garv221

I honestly don't know the answer either. I'm sure school helps you get a job, but will it help you keep it? I dunno. I have an Associates degree in Networking Systems. Just a little backbone I guess. My true skills were learned in the very start of my IT career. Making little money, just wanting to learn more, I had a need to learn more. Maybe that’s why experience pays off, people start off small, getting paid little but figure out the key information to lead to a future of overall technical knowledge. Basically taking a job to learn. If you get out of college you expect all this money & great success & you’re already in your mid/early 20's & totally skipped over the lowest level experience that would set the tone. The college kid now has to start that tone with pressure of loans & getting a job (any job) ASAP. Experience brings confidence. If you are not confident WTF are you? Just my thoughts...Who knows huh?

dsa1971

jdmurray wrote:

dsa1971 wrote:

hee! hee! you said specs and schema! At the company I work at I would kill to get anything more than verbal "specs" or a 2 sentence email "describing" the work that needs to be done.

Mega-ditto. I would kill just to get an MRD from marketing let alone a functional spec. Nobody wants to think ahead about what kind of product the customers want, and then the engineers get blamed for turning out a marginal software app. Would you live in a house that was built without using any blueprints? Well, most of the software that we are all using has been built just that way.

Like I keep telling the TLA's: "It's good to have a plan!"

<rant>
It drives me nuts because I always end up having to go back and rewrite things anyway because something does not work like they want it to or imagined in their mind and did not actually tell me what they wanted. It's beyond me how they can't understand if you actually think things out ahead of time and write a decent detailed spec the company might actually save some money by not making programmers rewrite things
due to crappy or non-existent specs.</rant>

I am thankful I still have a job in the IT world.

DaPunnisher

What made me "lucky" was the fact that I landed a killer internship at Harley-Davidson! They put me in the Server and systems management department and I learned tons! Of course Thats while I was going to school at ITT Tech for Electronics.

I got my certs while I was in school, working full time. I busted my Arse off! One of the career coordinators at the school saw my ambition and helped me get the interview for the internship.

I'm now a network admin for a School District and i've been very lucky there too because the previous network admin left and I jumped on the opportunity!

So, my formula was:

1. College Degree
2. Internship
5. Certs
4. Ambition!
5. Luck


Do you go from an average user to MCSE making $70,000 in 12 days like they promise on the radio and TV commercials? Well, a fool and his money are soon departed!

JDMurray

Regardless of all the stories of a "highly paid amazing guru IT/programmer guy/gal who doesn't have a college degree," the lack of a Bachelors degree will eventually catch up to everybody who works in the white collar and professional world. You may not feel it at 22, but you will at 32, and certainly at 42. Actually, the older you get the greater the need for a Masters degree will become apparent to you as well.

You may not know when you will get your college degree, but plan that eventually you will need to get one--even if you work in a field that can't be off-shored. The present government in the USA is doing its damnedest to relax immigration standards, and one day you might find a lot more "new folks" coming on-shore to take your job. Having completed formal educational programs will be one of the things that helps keep you earning good money.

darkuser

I ***Don't**** have my degree.
we've gotten rid of several degree carring bs' er's who say they can walk on water. I provide results....not promises

But I've always worked in a service provider,
non-profit, education enviornment.

today I'm wearing shorts and a hooded sweatshirt to work.
I haven't worn a tie since 99 !!!!
and I'm closing in on six figures.

that said I do plan to COMPLETE my bachelors when my 5 and 8 year old are a little older and I've got a ccie in my back pocket.

rockinlalkanomicon

Basically the dilemma I face is this:

I recently moved to Redmond/ Seattle, WA with the intention of going back to school. Currently I have a Mon. - Fri. job that pays a decent wage and has benefits, ( Very BIG corporation, $16+ and hour, employer payed medical, dental, optical) The problem is that I have a 2 hour commute each way, and this isnt a career, its a job. More than likely this job wont be around in 9 months, so I need to get out, soon.

I was hoping to get an A+ cert. and a N+ cert, then find an entry level job in the IT field somewhere closer to where I live. I dont expect to end up with all the benefits I have now, I am just looking for something to pay the bills, ($15 an hour or so). I intend on going to school once I have secured a position that didnt require 4 hours of drive time per day.

JDMurray

darkuser wrote:

I ***Don't**** have my degree.
we've gotten rid of several degree carring bs' er's who say they can walk on water. I provide results....not promises

Sounds like you have a *BIG* chip on your shoulder about not having a degree. Do your self-esteem a *BIG* favor and start planning on how you will actually obtain your degree (i.e., make your Degree Completion Plan), not just when you start it. You'll feel better (and less defensive) after doing so.

int80h

jdmurray wrote:

darkuser wrote:

I ***Don't**** have my degree.
we've gotten rid of several degree carring bs' er's who say they can walk on water. I provide results....not promises

Sounds like you have a *BIG* chip on your shoulder about not having a degree. Do your self-esteem a *BIG* favor and start planning on how you will actually obtain your degree (i.e., make your Degree Completion Plan), not just when you start it. You'll feel better (and less defensive) after doing so.

pwned.

garv221

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is how much money you make. Degree or no degree.

woodworm

My company initially advertised my job for people with a degree (which I don't have) but they eventually took me on as I had more experience than the other candidates (and I only had 3 years at the time!).

Must be different in the UK, although some jobs do request an IT related degree it isn't standard at all.

darkuser

that's just my opinion and experience
I really don't care if you approve.
though it seems to have hit a nerve in you.
thanks for the psychological advise.
I provide networking infrastructure for nasa.
and I'm willing to bet I make twice what you make with your impressive list of certs.

forbesl

darkuser wrote:

that's just my opinion and experience
I really don't care if you approve.
though it seems to have hit a nerve in you.
thanks for the psychological advise.
I provide networking infrastructure for nasa.
and I'm willing to bet I make twice what you make with your impressive list of certs.

LOL

He must be one of the degree-carrying water-walkers.

jaeusm

I ***Don't**** have my degree.
we've gotten rid of several degree carring bs' er's who say they can walk on water. I provide results....not promises

Good for you, but I provide both
And your implications are ridiculous.

But I've always worked in a service provider,
non-profit, education enviornment.
...
I provide networking infrastructure for nasa.

So, NASA is an education environment? Should I be impressed that you provide a service to them? That's why you name-dropped, right? It might have a bit more clout and meaning if you actually developed spacecraft.

keenon

um.. hey guys the fact of the matter is anyone that is in the industry with or without a degree should be happy..

but to all that really want to know you can do it either way and no way is better than the other its all about your drive

perljavageek

dsa1971 wrote:

perljavageek wrote:

At one job I had, my lead was a Perl guru who made truckloads of money. He didn't have a degree, but prior to that job he had worked for a decade at Silicon Graphics, and he was a true wiz. Another guy on our team there had a degree in Finance, but he had taught himself C and could code circles around the guys I was in school with. Then they had Project Managers and Systems Analysts who couldn't write up a clean spec, let alone make a sensible database schema.

hee! hee! you said specs and schema! At the company I work at I would kill to get anything more than verbal "specs" or a 2 sentence email "describing" the work that needs to be done.

Well, yeah, I do know where you're coming from on that. However, I'm talking about working in a little bit bigger company where their only job was to create specs or do database design. I've also worked in places where the person telling me what he wanted was the "CFO" (in a company of 12 people), and had no idea what was involved. I think he thought computers were **magic**...

Nowadays, I wouldn't ever waste my time working on a project like that (unless I was desperate). I'd be much more inclined to say, "Let's do it right, or just forget it -- because I guarantee you that after 3 weeks of intensive work (or more likely 3 months) you're going to say, 'That's not what I wanted', and then we'll have to redo the whole thing -- and it will end up costing more in the long run!

Although more than likely you'll get my favorite sorry-ass argument: "Let's just do it this way for now, and we'll sort it out later". It's hard to argue with (especially when you're arguing with the person who signs the checks) but it's a lose-lose situation if you're being led into a bad decision.

perljavageek

In fact, we're seeing the effects of this kind of thing again at my current job. We're currently on the tail end of the process of a product release where bad design essentially put us into 3 months of crisis mode. To mix metaphors, there's a light at the end of the tunnel, but we're not out of the woods yet.

Well, I say bad design, but really it was NO design. It's like, "Here's a list of 12 features we need in the product." "How do you want us to handle the process of putting them into the product?" "We don't know -- just do it -- you're the engineers, you can figure that out."

Huh huh. BIG mistake. When will we ever learn?