Salary for this position?

--chris--

First, let me say I have used craigslist, dice and payscale.com for researching this. However, those sites dont provide an answer to an important variable. The variable is how much more should someone expect if their job requires them to be on call 24x7 365? No trading on/off periods with a co-worker.

The job is a Jr systems admin type role. It covers many things from helpdesk work up to systems admin (Microsoft server, lync, exhange), preventing downtime and data loss through proactive measures and some CCNA type work (firewalls, routers, switches ~ 16 subnets). Everything from replacing dead keyboards, upgrading key server software, troubleshooting networking errors and VPN issues as well as support for all phone related problems (Avaya).

The candidate has an associates degree in a non-related field, 3 Comptia certs and 6 months of on the job experience. The candidate will work under supervision of a senior system admin, but will be required to come in for all after hours work whenever needed 24x7 365.

This job is in Metro Detroit. The employer is a midsized small business with ~250 employees across 11 offices. 1 week vacation after 12 months, decent healthcare offered, no dental/vision and a 401K.

Any ideas?

networker050184

On call 24x7x365? I'd have to get some pretty good compensation to take a job like that.

NetworkVeteran

That would depend on how often they would actually call you up, but probably in the ballpark of an extra 50% pay, assuming that your actual workload is comparable to that of others and you could live with the arrangement.

ratbuddy

A single week off after you work there a year? I wouldn't take that job at all.

Akaricloud

Honestly being on call doesn't always mean much. I had a job where I was on call all the time and maybe had 2-3 incidents throughout the entire year. My current position on the other hand puts me on call 2 days a month and I literally have trouble trying to find time to sleep during those days.

Until you determine this it's going to be impossible to put a number to it.

NetworkVeteran

Akaricloud wrote: »

Honestly being on call doesn't always mean much.

My company pays separately for "on-call" vs "called in". Being on call in itself is something.

Being on-call and needing to respond to an emergency a.s.a.p.--even if it never happens--means one cannot be away hiking on a mountain, taking an even 2-hour flight for a vacation, out on a sailing boat, going scuba diving, performing somewhere, driving through a cell phone dead zone, responsible for grilling at a BBQ, etc. Think about how terribly restrictive it would be to have to follow such provisions all year round without any respite.

--chris--

networker050184 wrote: »

On call 24x7x365? I'd have to get some pretty good compensation to take a job like that.

I think this has a lot to do with the situation. You are obviously a seasoned pro, I would expect (and I think most would as well) that it would require some good money to get someone like you on call 24x7 365. However, what about the people like me who are just starting out? I think most employers know people like me dont have much room to negotiate with since we are so green, and they use that to their advantage.

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

My company pays separately for "on-call" vs "called in". They can and do set a rate on it. Needing to respond to an emergency a.s.a.p. means one cannot be away hiking on a mountain, taking an 8-hour flight for a vacation, out on a sailing boat, performing somewhere, etc.

Now that seems logical, and it is something I will remember.


I would have to say 1-2x a month being called in at 1 am is likely. The typical time to repair is 5-8 hours.

@ratbuddy, is 1 week vacation after a year not much? That is the max as well, 1 year or 10 years = 1 week.

Sorry for the odd questions, I have worked for one employer since I was 15. I am 28 now. I am not only new to IT, but I am new to the corporate world as well.

Another variable on this situation, I dont think it should play in but Id like to hear what others say.

This employer gave me a shot and handed me all sorts of IT job duties when I had zero IT experience. Do I "owe" them? I don't think so, but id like to see what others say.

ratbuddy

No, a single week is not much. My wife is a payroll specialist making just under $20/hr and has been at her job about 8 years. She gets over 8 hours of PTO for every two weeks worked. Works out to around four weeks a year. My last job was fairly unskilled and only paid at $14/hr and I still got two weeks of paid vacation a year.

A single week off, and you have to work there for a whole year to get it? You don't get any more after you've been there for years? That's hella stingy, and I wouldn't even interview with them.

edit: Oh, and they want you on call 24/7/365 with no vacation time? Screw that.

W Stewart

For only 6 months of experience, I'd expect the salary to be on the low end since they'd probably have to train you on a lot of stuff but within a year or so, you could get a pretty good salary. If you really only had 6 months of experience and you've never done sys admin type work like setting up VPNs or routing and switching, then personally I'd take the job even if it was underpaid just for the experience and then move on as soon as I'm able to.

W Stewart

--chris-- wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with the situation. You are obviously a seasoned pro, I would expect (and I think most would as well) that it would require some good money to get someone like you on call 24x7 365. However, what about the people like me who are just starting out? I think most employers know people like me dont have much room to negotiate with since we are so green, and they use that to their advantage.




Now that seems logical, and it is something I will remember.


I would have to say 1-2x a month being called in at 1 am is likely. The typical time to repair is 5-8 hours.

@ratbuddy, is 1 week vacation after a year not much? That is the max as well, 1 year or 10 years = 1 week.

Sorry for the odd questions, I have worked for one employer since I was 15. I am 28 now. I am not only new to IT, but I am new to the corporate world as well.

Another variable on this situation, I dont think it should play in but Id like to hear what others say.

This employer gave me a shot and handed me all sorts of IT job duties when I had zero IT experience. Do I "owe" them? I don't think so, but id like to see what others say.

Take the job. A lot of people may be speaking from the position of someone with a lot of experience in the IT industry and may not know or remember how difficult it is to get that experience when you have none, especially in this economy. They may have the luxury to turn down certain jobs but you're not where they are. If you can live off of what they're paying you then take the job and stick with it for a least a year or two. If they don't start paying you the market rate, then you would have gained some valuable experience that can get you a well paying job with benefits.

tstrip007

I completly agree with W Stewart. Take that job and learn everything you can from the senior admin.

--chris--

W Stewart wrote: »

Take the job. A lot of people may be speaking from the position of someone with a lot of experience in the IT industry and may not know or remember how difficult it is to get that experience when you have none, especially in this economy. They may have the luxury to turn down certain jobs but you're not where they are. If you can live off of what they're paying you then take the job and stick with it for a least a year or two. If they don't start paying you the market rate, then you would have gained some valuable experience that can get you a well paying job with benefits.

That is what I have been thinking, but the catch is its a hell of a drive. I am very fortunate for what I have, but I also know I am gambling a little bit by putting some of gas on a credit card and running the wheels off my vehicle driving so far when the job pays so little.

I see it as an educational expense, no different than tuition or books...most likely far cheaper than school when you compare what I learn in each. I just dont know at what point I am getting taken advantage of. I agree with my employer, I am making around $10/hour and that's a fair wage for what I bring to the table. The trouble is, in 6 months we agreed to sit down and he and I would settle on a salaried wage. I have a range in my head, but I want to make sure that range is reasonable.

sratakhin

I would have to ask for at least a six figure salary if I were on call 24x7 and with a week of vacation time.

networker050184

--chris-- wrote: »

I think this has a lot to do with the situation. You are obviously a seasoned pro, I would expect (and I think most would as well) that it would require some good money to get someone like you on call 24x7 365. However, what about the people like me who are just starting out? I think most employers know people like me dont have much room to negotiate with since we are so green, and they use that to their advantage.

Don't get me wrong I've done my fair share of on call, but it's always been at least a rotation with someone else. 24x7x365 is a little more than I'm willing to commit to a job.

--chris--

At this point, I dont think anything is off the table as far as negotiations go. I have a few ideas in my head if the salary is below what I need to sustain (a mix of remote/on site schedule to save on commute costs, 4 days a week @ 10 hours each, part time, etc...). They are willing to work with me, he has made that clear. But from what I see from equipment, how they operate on a whole and from what others have told me they like to do things as cheap as possible.

Its possible I am making a big deal out of nothing and this is all a part of "paying your dues".

networker050184

Paying your dues does not mean giving your whole life to a company for barely enough to sustain.

NetworkVeteran

Paying your dues does not mean giving your whole life to a company for barely enough to sustain.

Bingo! I didn't "pay my dues" like this. I was on-call a few evenings a month. The last time I was on-call is still poignantly in my memory. I took an 8-hour drive rather than a 1-hour flight, because I couldn't risk being unavailable. I'm not suggesting that the OP turn down the job. I am suggesting he dial back the expectations and ensure adequate compensation.

sadfjlfdo24

This sounds like the worst job anyone could ever have.. especially if you have a CCNA.

santaowns

Nothing says that after you take the job you cant keep looking bro. You gotta do whats good for you in the long run and right now you need experience more than anything else.

Danielm7

W Stewart wrote: »

Take the job. A lot of people may be speaking from the position of someone with a lot of experience in the IT industry and may not know or remember how difficult it is to get that experience when you have none, especially in this economy. They may have the luxury to turn down certain jobs but you're not where they are. If you can live off of what they're paying you then take the job and stick with it for a least a year or two. If they don't start paying you the market rate, then you would have gained some valuable experience that can get you a well paying job with benefits.

I know some people are comparing it to having a lot of experience to lean on, but $10/hr and a long commute is far too little for anything in the IT realm as far as I'm concerned. The company I work at needs someone to package orders and mail them out, said to me "just find someone for 10 bucks an hour if you can" to give you a comparison. I know you said the company gave you a lot of learning opportunities but at a certain point they are just taking advantage of you, and a week vacation isn't much at all either. If you really want to stay there I'd ask for a significant raise and a reasonable vacation time of 2 weeks.

colemic

Dude. You better be hella desperate if you take this job. $10/barely puts you above the poverty line, not even counting commuting costs. I promise you, you will never see that one week vacation, because you will be burnt out by then.

If you do take it, I wouldn't stop looking and I would bail asap... if you are only worth $10/hr to them, then you aren't an asset to them. I don't know you but I don't doubt that you can provide quality work, but I am pretty sure that you can make very near that working foodservice near your home, without the commute.

For me, the one week after one year would be dealbreaker - not because I feel I am entitled to more, but that it is significantly less than the almost universally-accepted standard of 2 weeks/year accrued + sick days, for a profesional position.

GAngel

sadfjlfdo24 wrote: »

This sounds like the worst job anyone could ever have.. especially if you have a CCNA.

That about sums it up.

NetworkVeteran

I wanted to make more concrete how you could work out a reasonable rate for these services. This also, importantly, allows you to negotiate your SLA so there's no confusion about the services provided.

A. My cost to work normal business hours (9am-5pm) is $x/hr.
B. Typically, workers are granted 80 hours (10 days) of vacation/year and you are asking me to take no vacation the first year. The cost for these extra vacation hours is ($x/hr x 80). To convert to hourly, divide by 2080 and add to base rate.
C. What are your expectations when I'm very sick and/or contagious?
D. You are asking me to be on-call 24/7/365. Assuming an SLA of responding within 2 hours during weekday off-hours, and within 4 hours during weekend off-hours, I could offer--
i. Add +15% to your base hourly rate for the service of always being on-call.
ii. Pay 1.5x hourly rate for any off-hours calls, 2.5x hourly rate for any holiday calls.
E. Beyond 60 hours, work is also charged at 2.5x the hourly rate. No work accepted beyond 80 hours.

So, assuming your base rate was $14/hour here's how it would work out--

A. $14.00/hour
B. $14.54/hour - eliminate vacation days
C. Discuss
D. $16.64, $21, $35
E. $35

Final Service Rates:
$16.64/hr office hours, $21.00/hr unscheduled, $35.00/hr holidays or extreme overtime.

Making holiday and overtime hours expensive is very important. I remember a consultant who started doing this when he realized companies kept trying to schedule their upgrades over Christmas.

--chris--

I need to find the "multi quote" button on here...anyone? There are some good replies, and a lot of helpful people I would like to thank.

First: the position is "salary", not hourly. That was a red flag to me when I first sat down with them, but I am in a hardspot having no experience. They expect long hours and short notice work, but also expect to pay a flat rate? Seems odd.

Second: I am still looking to this day (and plan to after the "upgrade" to full time). Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for what I have. I know I have learned a lot already, but for the reasons mentioned above (pay/commute/hours) I never quit looking.

Third: I have mentioned in another thread I am version 5.0 (another red flag). There were 4 others before me, I am the first non-technical person though which is why they have high hopes for me.

@NetworkVeteran, that formula is awesome! Thank you for the direction, are those multipliers realistic? Also what is SLA?

@everyone else, both sides of the fence...all your input is helping me, I appreciate it.

NetworkVeteran

Converting between hourly and salary rates is straight-forward. Multiply or divide by 2080.

"Salary" and "Fixed fee" are not precisely the same. I have had a salary as long as I have worked in IT, and that doesn't preclude getting compensated extra when I'm on-call or need to go to work an extra weekend day.

If he wants a fixed fee, accommodate that with packages (again, assuming a base rate is $14/hr)--

Base Service = (Daytime + On-Call) = ($16.64 x 2080) = $34,611

Packages:
+ 10 hours/mo off-hour calls = ($21/hr x 9hr/mo + $35/hr x 1hr/mo) x 12mo = +$2,688
+ 20 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 2 = $5376
+ 40 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 4 = $10752
+ 80 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 8 = $21504

Thus, your salary would be between $37,299 and $56,115 depending on the SLA desired. Your SLA is your service level agreement. It defines what services you are responsible for providing for the salary/fee they are paying you.

Thank you for the direction, are those multipliers realistic?

The base rate is up to you. The multipliers seem reasonable--of course, but do what is right for you. Perhaps you want more hours so 70 is your limit before "extreme overtime" pay, or you don't care about missing holidays. If they don't want to pay so much, just dial back on the service offered--e.g., work more scheduled hours and fewer unscheduled hours, or double your response time for off-hours issues until you're both reasonably satisfied with your arrangement.

jcole4lsu

job requires them to be on call 24x7 365? No trading on/off periods with a co-worker.

1 week vacation after 12 months, decent healthcare offered, no dental/vision and a 401K.

run. for. the. hills.
I had a job like that - not tech, it was management at a logistics facility - for 6 months I was on call 24/7. I once worked 48+ hours straight in a "crisis" (a crisis not of my making I'd add). I cannot possibly tell you how stressful that type of situation is. Especially if you actually care about your position and want to do a good job. I couldn't sleep worth a crap at night because I was worried the phone would ring and I might miss the call. Additionally you'll find that your services and sacrifices are not actually appreciated by management.
Add to that your company apparently provides a very meager benefits package and I would not consider that job unless I was desperate for income. Just my $.02

--chris--

NetworkVeteran wrote: »

Converting between hourly and salary rates is straight-forward. Multiply or divide by 2080.

"Salary" and "Fixed fee" are not precisely the same. I have had a salary as long as I have worked in IT, and that doesn't preclude getting compensated extra when I'm on-call or need to go to work an extra weekend day.

If he wants a fixed fee, accommodate that with packages (again, assuming a base rate is $14/hr)--

Base Service = (Daytime + On-Call) = ($16.64 x 2080) = $34,611

Packages:
+ 10 hours/mo off-hour calls = ($21/hr x 9hr/mo + $35/hr x 1hr/mo) x 12mo = +$2,688
+ 20 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 2 = $5376
+ 40 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 4 = $10752
+ 80 hours/mo off-hour calls = Above x 8 = $21504

Thus, your salary would be between $37,299 and $56,115 depending on the SLA desired. Your SLA is your service level agreement. It defines what services you are responsible for providing for the salary/fee they are paying you.


The base rate is up to you. The multipliers seem reasonable--of course, but do what is right for you. Perhaps you want more hours so 70 is your limit before "extreme overtime" pay, or you don't care about missing holidays. If they don't want to pay so much, just dial back on the service offered--e.g., work more scheduled hours and fewer unscheduled hours, or double your response time for off-hours issues until you're both reasonably satisfied with your arrangement.

This post + the one you made just above these two are pure gold. I really think this should be worked into a sticky at the top of the IT Jobs sub forum. This would provide some very useful info for a lot of people that come here. Are you in hiring/recruiting?

Also just for one more level of clarification, SLA is a good way to make sure your employer knows what you should be giving them as well as what you should be receiving?

Thanks again, that range is above what I expected and as I thought I was not valuing myself enough. I realize those are just numbers in an example, but its hard to imagine working a helpdesk/jr system admin job and making less than $14/hour.

I am working this Sunday by the way, 6 hours. But I will admit I am looking forward to this as my senior admin will be showing me how to install/configure Esxi with a network monitoring software on it and then integrating it into our corporate office.

Its not all bad, but at some point I will be worth more than I am now and I needed to know how to go about determining that value.

W Stewart

Danielm7 wrote: »

I know some people are comparing it to having a lot of experience to lean on, but $10/hr and a long commute is far too little for anything in the IT realm as far as I'm concerned. The company I work at needs someone to package orders and mail them out, said to me "just find someone for 10 bucks an hour if you can" to give you a comparison. I know you said the company gave you a lot of learning opportunities but at a certain point they are just taking advantage of you, and a week vacation isn't much at all either. If you really want to stay there I'd ask for a significant raise and a reasonable vacation time of 2 weeks.

I'd have to agree. I was just under the impression that it was an employer who was underpaying for the skill level that the op would eventually be at once they trained him. I must have missed the 24/7 part. My last on-call job was a rotating weekly on-call schedule and I moved to another city so I could be close to work and not worry about car troubles. Everybody has to pay their dues but you don't want to let someone rake you over the coals until you have nothing. Car troubles can leave you unemployed and severely limit your options for employment depending on how much public transportation is available.

W Stewart

--chris-- wrote: »

I need to find the "multi quote" button on here...anyone? There are some good replies, and a lot of helpful people I would like to thank.

First: the position is "salary", not hourly. That was a red flag to me when I first sat down with them, but I am in a hardspot having no experience. They expect long hours and short notice work, but also expect to pay a flat rate? Seems odd.

Second: I am still looking to this day (and plan to after the "upgrade" to full time). Dont get me wrong, I am grateful for what I have. I know I have learned a lot already, but for the reasons mentioned above (pay/commute/hours) I never quit looking.

Third: I have mentioned in another thread I am version 5.0 (another red flag). There were 4 others before me, I am the first non-technical person though which is why they have high hopes for me.

@NetworkVeteran, that formula is awesome! Thank you for the direction, are those multipliers realistic? Also what is SLA?

@everyone else, both sides of the fence...all your input is helping me, I appreciate it.

Salary too? That's what my last job did so they didn't have to pay overtime when we were on call. Although I gained some valuable experience there, I left after 8 or 9 months. It looks like you're already working there so I would keep your resume updated with everything you learn and look for a better job ASAP. Sorry if I was steering you in the wrong direction before.

Edit: There's also laws on how much they have to pay you for a salary position and I'm pretty sure I was making the bare minimum at 12.50/hr. Not sure if that's a state or federal law so I would look into that as well.

--chris--

W Stewart wrote: »

Salary too? That's what my last job did so they didn't have to pay overtime when we were on call. Although I gained some valuable experience there, I left after 8 or 9 months. It looks like you're already working there so I would keep your resume updated with everything you learn and look for a better job ASAP. Sorry if I was steering you in the wrong direction before.

Edit: There's also laws on how much they have to pay you for a salary position and I'm pretty sure I was making the bare minimum at 12.50/hr. Not sure if that's a state or federal law so I would look into that as well.

I was not aware of that minimum law, wow...good to know. I will look into it.

I live in the booneys by choice. Even a "close to home" job would be 25 miles each way (this one is 55 each way, but a lot of it is in dense traffic). The last 10 miles are the real pain, they account for 30% of my drive time.

The plan has not changed much, keep working/learning and searching. in 6 months I will be one semester closer to my BS, should have a few more certs and 6 months of experience. Things gotta start getting easier lol. I do however, have a much better idea of what I am negotiating for and why.

linuxabuser

$10/hr? Get out of there. Why would you commute for McDonalds wages?