Resigning

ChooseLife

Hi all,

Hope everyone is well. I've been busy with life and work for the past year and did not visit TE, but I miss the community a lot.

I am about to change jobs and want to run a few things by you folks...

1) I received one offer and there may be another one coming. Until one of them is finalized and signed, I should not make a peep about the prospect of leaving at my current job, right? An offer gets signed first, then goes the two-week notice?

2) When tendering a resignation letter, would it be awkward to not disclose to the manager where I am going? Is there a nice way?

3) Do you ever get asked about your salary by ex-coworkers? E.g. when you are leaving or perhaps afterwards? How do you handle it?

Other tips are welcome too - it's been some years since I changed jobs and I've gotten rusty on the process...

SweenMachine

I was just at the same job for 7 years..

I resigned as well, and I didn't give them the company I was going to. I just put in a very simple letter, and then spoke to my manager in more detail. He asked where I was going and I told him. I had nothing to hide. When you put in time with a company, although there might be some bitter people, most people in command understand you have to do what will advance your career and your life, first and foremost.

Several former coworkers want to gossip, I just try to stay above it. Sure, I would LOVE to talk negative about the people I disliked, to help people I DO like maybe negotiate a better salary, but it really isn't my place to get involved in drama


-scott

LionelTeo

ChooseLife wrote: »

Hi all,

1) I received one offer and there may be another one coming. Until one of them is finalized and signed, I should not make a peep about the prospect of leaving at my current job, right? An offer gets signed first, then goes the two-week notice?

When you received the offer, lets say on monday, let them know you will be available the next friday. Another way is to tell the company you can only take your leave on a day two weeks later to sign the contract due to company work. If the second offer does not comes to you, then you could sign the first offer without having to worries. 2 Weeks of time is plenty, even if the company offer you after two weeks, it reflect how slow the organization in general in getting a process completed, it may seems little on surface, imagine trying to implement something and have to wait for two weeks approval while audit is around the corner. This are some of the small stuff that can tells you about the organization.

2) When tendering a resignation letter, would it be awkward to not disclose to the manager where I am going? Is there a nice way?

Depends how close are you to your manager, if your on good terms with him (which most manager aren't really that bonded with their team people), you can choose to tell him. If your not own good terms or don't have a good impression of him, telling him roughly where your going is way better than trying to avoid the conversation, it makes you seems like hiding something. You can say which industry your next company is, like. "I am joining another financial institution, or small firm, audit firm, another IT company, or school" or whatever industry your going to. If he is curious and wants the exact company, then feel free to tell him or tell him you wish to keep it secret for now or something/

3) Do you ever get asked about your salary by ex-coworkers? E.g. when you are leaving or perhaps afterwards? How do you handle it?

Yes, but you had to be careful salary is a somewhat a NDA thing. For a random colleague I will give them a rough gauge, ask them to make a guess and put higher or lower or around there, or if you do not even go through this way you can tell them it was bench mark base on your certification and your x years of experience according to market rate, and pass the baton back to them and encourage them to rethink their own value for market rate. For personal best friends who can hold secret, feel free to share the joy with them.

paul78

Congratulations on your pending job offer.

Regarding your questions - pretty much what @LionelTeo and @SweenMachine said. I just wanted to add that with respect to #2 - some companies will ask about where you are going only to ensure that you are not going to a competitor or if you have a non-compete agreement that you are not violating it. Generally though, it's innocuous and unless you have a reason to hide, there is not reason not to disclose the sector, type of companies, or even the name of the new employer.

Regarding #3 - never that would be a bit gauche. An employer may ask if they are contemplating a counter-offer but I will never except a counter-offer from an existing employer unless perhaps it's for a different job.

EdTheLad

Back everything up work wise before you tell anybody you plan on leaving, just in case you don't get an opportunity to do it after. If you are going to a competitor it's possible that you will be escorted to your desk to collect your personal belongings and then escorted to the door, with full pay until the notice period expires.

It's funny when this happens, you work for a company for years and then they treat you like crap, but hey that's company policy. Now, what you could do is pretend that you are going to a competitor, then you get afew weeks paid holiday and everybody is happy .

BGraves

Congrats of the offers!

Yes, I would keep your offers on the "down low" until you've gotten everything in writing. You're looking out for your own best interests in this way, in case something falls through or you decide not to go with either.

I agree with LionelTeo on this and simply suggest, there is no need to provide any additional information unless you want to.
Keep in mind, this isn't really about being "nice". It's about being professional and looking out for your own interests as you move on from a company.

I often have nosy friends or coworkers that want to know financial information. It's not their business and there is no need to tell them.
I know from past experience, knowing what someone else made/makes is the quickest way to become unhappy with what you make. That's how unfair comparisons and unhappiness can start. I prefer to keep that information to myself to avoid any of that for myself or others.

Best of luck on your new endeavors! Hope the transition goes smoothly!

MrAgent

ChooseLife wrote: »

1) I received one offer and there may be another one coming. Until one of them is finalized and signed, I should not make a peep about the prospect of leaving at my current job, right? An offer gets signed first, then goes the two-week notice?

2) When tendering a resignation letter, would it be awkward to not disclose to the manager where I am going? Is there a nice way?

3) Do you ever get asked about your salary by ex-coworkers? E.g. when you are leaving or perhaps afterwards? How do you handle it?

Other tips are welcome too - it's been some years since I changed jobs and I've gotten rusty on the process...

1. Never tell them you are leaving until you have that offer finalized! At my current company one of my coworkers put in his resignation and gave 2 weeks. They walked him out the next day, and he was a very valuable employee.

2. I generally don't say where I am going unless asked. People get curious and will ask.

3. I just tell them that I am going to making more than the current salary.

mikeybikes

Not much to say that hasn't already been said, but...

1- Don't make a peep until you you have a scheduled start date.
2- Don't freely offer up that info. If you like the manager and he/she asks, go for it.
3- Never discuss salaries with coworkers. Even former coworkers.

TomkoTech

Even if you have a scheduled start date, I would confirm with the new place that no other background checks or anything need done. A guy I work with put in his notice, he actually gave a months notice as that was when his new company was doing the training for the batch of new employees. They ended up rescinding his job offer the Friday before he was supposed to start because he had a DUI on his record. He got lucky that our employer decided it was easier to just keep him then find a replacement, otherwise he'd be out of a job and not collecting unemployment.

paul78

EdTheLad wrote: »

Back everything up work wise before you tell anybody you plan on leaving, just in case you don't get an opportunity to do it after.

Whoa - not sure that I would agree with that. Work product that was performed on behalf of an employer belongs to the employer. Not you.

UnixGuy

Welcome back to TE!

1) Right

2) Up to you. Not awkward at all. Here's what I say "I'd like to keep this information private". End of discussion.

3) I never - ever - disclose salary. I say "I'd like to keep this information private". Or "I signed an NDA" (I haven't signed an NDA, I just say I did).

SweenMachine

paul78 wrote: »

Whoa - not sure that I would agree with that. Work product that was performed on behalf of an employer belongs to the employer. Not you.

EXACTLY

You shouldn't have anything personal on that machine anyway...


-scott

tier~

Isn't there a fine line to some degree... I mean as a sys admin for instance you undoubtedly have countless scripts you've written that could be applicable no matter where you're working. Keeping copies of those while removing references to company systems seems perfectly legitimate. I guess that depends on the NDA you signed though, if any.

Having just gone through all this though myself I echo everyone else's sentiments. Don't give up more info than you need to. If you have a solid relationship with your supervisors and they're understanding of people wanting to advance themselves then I don't believe it's an issue to let them know where you're going and a little bit of how it relates to your career goals. Hell, they'll just be able to see it on LinkedIn or your blog or somewhere else a few weeks down the road anyway.

PurpleIT

EdTheLad wrote: »

Back everything up work wise before you tell anybody you plan on leaving, just in case you don't get an opportunity to do it after.

Maybe we could rephrase this to "clean up everything" to calm the nerves of some people on here.

I know I have personal items on my work computer; everyone at my office does. In my case, even when I try to make sure nothing personal gets on here, one or two things sneak through.

Clean it up, if you have non-proprietary scripts/tips/FAQ/bookmarks, go ahead and "back them up", I honestly don't see the harm in that.

iBrokeIT

tier~ wrote: »

Isn't there a fine line to some degree... I mean as a sys admin for instance you undoubtedly have countless scripts you've written that could be applicable no matter where you're working. Keeping copies of those while removing references to company systems seems perfectly legitimate. I guess that depends on the NDA you signed though, if any.

There is no fine line. If they paid you to write those scripts for their system they own it 100%. You retain the knowledge and skills to write the scripts. If you take or copy the work they paid you for thats theft.

TomkoTech

iBrokeIT wrote: »

There is no fine line. If they paid you to write those scripts for their system they own it 100%. You retain the knowledge and skills to write the scripts. If you take or copy the work they paid you for thats theft.

Define paid me to write the script. First of all I never signed an NDA, Non-compete, nor anything regarding intellectual property. While I am salary I have a set schedule Mon-Fri 8-5 with hours flexed as needed. If I wrote said script on my own time did they in fact pay me for it? I would say no. Could they ever prove I actually "took" said script? Seeing as I am the one who sets up all the logging on the servers, and I know we don't monitor local desktops, again I would say no. So if I keep a copy of my work, it is not theft. Had I signed any sort of document prohibiting this that would be a different story.

GarudaMin

PurpleIT wrote: »

Maybe we could rephrase this to "clean up everything" to calm the nerves of some people on here.

I know I have personal items on my work computer; everyone at my office does. In my case, even when I try to make sure nothing personal gets on here, one or two things sneak through.

Clean it up, if you have non-proprietary scripts/tips/FAQ/bookmarks, go ahead and "back them up", I honestly don't see the harm in that.

Define "Clean it up"! Employees may be liable for actions taken to delete data from employer supplied computer. Under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA), deleting employer's data is held actionable. If you want further detail, you can look up International Airport Centers L.L.C v. Citrin (2006).

If you really want more information, read Law Journal Press - Privacy Law - Chapter 4 - Privacy and Surveillance in the Workplace

GarudaMin

The best way to go through is let employer know about the data you want to take with you. Have them redact if need to (in the case of scripts). Better to have blessing then just taking it without telling a soul. You never know what the employer has in terms of exit strategies for employees. If your companies need to be in compliance with statues and laws, then well a blessing is better.

PurpleIT

GarudaMin wrote: »

Define "Clean it up"! Employees may be liable for actions taken to delete data from employer supplied computer. Under Computer Fraud and Abuse Act (CFAA), deleting employer's data is held actionable. If you want further detail, you can look up International Airport Centers L.L.C v. Citrin (2006).

I really think it is quite clear I was not talking about deleting work data nor using secure erase utilities to hide my inappropriate web surfing. I am talking about the time my wife sent something to my work email, the picture of my kids that was used as my wallpaper and time I wrote a shopping list in notepad and saved it to my desktop.

paul78

TomkoTech wrote: »

Define paid me to write the script. .... If I wrote said script on my own time did they in fact pay me for it? I would say no.

If you wrote the script as part of any activity related to tasks for your employer, it would likely be considered your employers property. If you wrote it on your time and for your own amusement, you probably should have done that on your own computing assets.

@ChooseLife - apologies for taking your thread off-topic...

EdTheLad

Gosh, i see i opened a can of worms for the righteous. When i work for a company i take all the scripts, docs etc i've worked on. I take anything else i can that i think will be useful in the future. Anyone who doesn't do this i call an honest fool, but a fool none the less. I don't care about companies, i care about myself and what i have to do to get ahead.
I think everyone has their own opinion on this, why try and push yours on someone else. Call me a thief etc, but i know one thing, i'll be doing the same thing over and over again regardless of NDAs.

TomkoTech

Like Ed if I wrote the script whether it be as a function of my position with the company or not, and I feel I could use it in future endeavors I would make sure I had a copy of my own. And that isn't just because I am leaving a company. I work from home using as Paul states "my own computing assets" fairly frequently. Does that mean anything I've done on my home computer should be turned over to my employer if I decided to leave, so they can decide what is theirs?

The argument here is moot. Everyone has their own "moral" compass. Unlike morality, the law is pretty clear. As long as you aren't damaging your soon to be former employers data, and you haven't signed anything the says otherwise, you can legally keep a copy of anything you created. Beyond that they would have a hell of a hard time proving otherwise.

paul78

@EdTheLad and @TomkoTech - this doesn't have anything to do with an NDA -an NDA is a non-disclosure agreement. I am referring to work-for-hire. I have never worked for any employer in the last 25 years in the US that didn't include a work-for-hire agreement of some sort. The work that you produce is the property of the employer. Unless you have another agreement with your employer on work-product copyrights (and I've had that before to protect my own intellectual property - for example for my contributions to open-source or contributions under GPL or Apache licenses), you do not have a right to the work product.

You both should be aware that some companies take this very seriously and it is foolish to think that you are not at risk whenever you conduct this sort of activity. Part of my job is to protect my employers intellectual property as well as to protect my employer from risk of accepting another organization's intellectual property. At least, once per year, I have to deal with our lawyers to either terminate employment of a newly hire employee because it was discovered that the employee brought in work-product from their previous employer, or we have to threaten legal action to a former employee that exfiltrated intellectual property. This type of activity is a total waste of time because someone decided that they are entitled to something that didn't belong to them.

TomkoTech

Not going to argue with you. Good luck enforcing your policy when it comes to scripts and non proprietary tools.

GarudaMin

Taking things you worked on such as scripts is perfectly legal (unless otherwise stated in organization's policy - some organization that is under a lot of laws and statues do). You worked on it whether it's on personal time or employer's time and whether it's to help with work-related tasks or not. Taking personal things are also legal, as long as it's not like employer's documents or work-related items. What I am just saying is it's better to let your infosec person or hr person (whoever does exit interview) know what you would like to take (they can't say no if it's your personal or has no employer's intellectual property). If they want to they will look those over and redact if they need to. All I am saying is it's better to get blessing to avoid any potential complications. No?

EdTheLad

Ok Paul, i think we know where you stand on this subject, and i think you know where we stand. I take a risk leaving my house every morning, life is full of risks. You weigh up the risks and you choose your path. We sign contracts to get paid, we don't always agree with the contracts, but we sign to get paid. Weather or not we abide by these contracts is on us.I think this forum is full of intelligent people, and i think everyone knows what they can and cant do legally or ethically regarding their jobs. So if you were under the assumption that we didn't understand the risks, you are wrong, but thanks for letting us know.

EdTheLad

GarudaMin wrote: »

What I am just saying is it's better to let your infosec person or hr person (whoever does exit interview) know what you would like to take (they can't say no if it's your personal or has no employer's intellectual property). If they want to they will look those over and redact if they need to. All I am saying is it's better to get blessing to avoid any potential complications. No?

Obviously you've never been walked out of a company.

GarudaMin

I have never been walked out of a company. Even if I were to get walked out, I don't need anything from my work computer. I have copies of everything I need.

I have seen people getting walked out. But I have not been in a place where employer won't give back personal stuffs including documents from work computer (just as with exit strategy - things are comb through first before giving/returning). But I take it that I won't get anything back if I were to work in Paul's company . But then I don't need to worry since I always have copies.

I don't want to go into anyone's personal/professional life. But in general, if someone get walked out of a company, isn't that because someone screws up something (mostly because of violations against policy/ethic/professional obligation)? If there's no ground for getting walked out of a company, someone can sue the company back.

TomkoTech

A lot of companies will have you clean out your desk and walk you out the day you give your notice. They typically pay your 2 weeks out, but don't want to take the chance of any malicious activities or anything that is a liability to occur because you are half way out the door.

mikeybikes

I've heard of places that will walk you out for giving a two weeks notice, it is just policy.

As for keeping scripts and stuff you've written, it probably largely depends on what industry you're working in.

I work for a law firm right now, and they have absolutely zero interest in my scripts, as long as they continue to work after I'm gone. I wouldn't bat an eye making a copy of all my scripts and procedures I've written to a flash drive and telling the IT director that I did so. He might only ask to look at the flash drive to make sure I didn't copy any confidential client info.

Bundiman

An example of taking your work would be a graphic artist. They can and do build parts of their portfolios from work that they have done for other people and been paid for. So how is taking a script with the company specific information stripped out and showing it as part of your skills to new employers different.

Not saying its right or wrong but man this has a lot of gray area.