We can't pay you more because you don't have a B.S.

rwmidl · July 2012

About 2 weeks ago I was in an interview for with a company that found my resume on Dice. I had marked "confidential" as my current salary (technically it is), and on the job listing they had put what the pay range was. When they asked me about my degree I said I had a B.A. (which I got 16 years ago!) They then said "if you had a B.S. we could justify with the customer paying you more" (note this is/was a Gov. contracting position). Only one other time have I had someone say to me I couldn't make more money because I didn't have a B.S./Masters degree (the other time was for an internal job but I figured the hiring manager was trying to low-ball me). With 12 years experience, you would think that would trump someone with a degree.

That being said, does anyone think there is any truth to the fact that I can't "make more money" because I don't have a B.S. degree? Or is this another case of a company wanting to not pay me what I was asking me for/trying to low-ball me?

Jasiono · July 2012

I say that they are low balling you. Like you mentioned, your experience is well above the level of a B.S. degree and the fact that they aren't taking it into consideration is crap.

Every job I've seen with the government always gave me the option of the degree AND/OR experience.

rwmidl · July 2012

Thanks. I'm leaning more towards the low ball. I know that Federal positions (not contractors) have a bit more stringent education requirements but even then my experience level + having a degree from an accredited university usually wins out (at least gets me past stage 1).

Devilry · July 2012

I think I would need more info before answering. Is the BA in IT? or not?

Maybe I can see them using it as a tactic if your BA is in a unrelated field.

rwmidl · July 2012

My degree was in Political Science. So no, it wasn't in IT.

dave330i · July 2012

You'll probably run into this more often. Companies want their senior/management people to have B.S.

kanecain · July 2012

More than likely, this person is some clueless human resources person with absolutely no idea what they're looking for. In my company, we don't even let HR touch potential IT candidates.

rwmidl · July 2012

My dad also said the same thing to me yesterday (he has a BS and an MBA). He said it is a very poor policy/thought process as unless we are talking about being a engineer or something once you are out of school/have your degree and you have experience under your belt that should trump having a BS (as he said, "what does a BS mean? You took a few more hours of a math/science? Big deal").

I've had some people (dad included) ask why don't I get my MBA. I really don't have the drive to do it, though it is starting to creep up on me (I just have to figure out what the rewards of going through it would be).

N2IT · July 2012

Each situation is different to be honest, it's hard to get a read on this one. It sounds like set requirements "could" of been noted and therefore they are stating that claim. It could also be that they are low balling you, but for a BA is silly IMO and I have a hard time believing that. I have a BS though so maybe this happens I am not sure.

The bottomline is the recruiter can say pretty much what they want and the company can ask for whatever they want, doesn't mean they are going to get it.

You mention they said they could pay you more if you had a B.Sc. How much more is more?

rwmidl · July 2012

They didn't say. From what I remember about the listing, I met/exceeded the "listed" requirements. What is interesting is 3 days after the interview, they called and said they were going to extend an offer to me. I asked if they could email me the offer and also include info such as health insurance info (how much they pay/how much I would have to pay), retirement info, etc. Just so I could get a full understanding of the offer. They said no problem. The next day they called and said they had to rescind the offer as funding fell through. Maybe funding did fall through. Maybe they decided I was too "difficult" to work with. Who really knows.

SteveLord · July 2012

Jasiono wrote: »

Every job I've seen with the government always gave me the option of the degree AND/OR experience.

Not in state government here. There is rarely an "or" attached to it. Especially for mid-upper level positions.

FloOz · July 2012

i think at some point actual experience out weighs a b.s degree....and i definitely think your experience is much more useful than a b.s

Devilry · July 2012

I don't think you should think of it as 'too hard to work with', you asked for reasonable items. If an employer does play on the table then maybe it wasn't right for you. Don't let it get you down, there are plenty of fish in the sea.

cyberguypr · July 2012

rwmidl wrote: »

... the next day they called and said they had to resend the offer as funding fell through.

I'm sure you meant 'rescind'.

jmritenour · July 2012

SteveLord wrote: »

Not in state government here. There is rarely an "or" attached to it. Especially for mid-upper level positions.

When I was with a public school system, and our technology director left, I was told under no uncertain terms that I would not be considered to replace here as I didn't have a degree.

dave330i · July 2012

pruspeter wrote: »

i think at some point actual experience out weighs a b.s degree....and i definitely think your experience is much more useful than a b.s

It's at the beginning of your career that not having a B.S. isn't a big deal.

rwmidl · July 2012

dave330i wrote: »

It's at the beginning of your career that not having a B.S. isn't a big deal.

In a way I'm going to disagree with this, I think HAVING the BS at the beginning of your career would be more beneficial. Once you get down the road, having experience should trump having a BS (so I would think).

glenn_33 · July 2012

You've got your CISSP, I heard that is grounds alone to make very good money...

veritas_libertas · July 2012

I think that is more than a little ridiculous. BS vs BA could matter if you were in anything but IT. If you were just starting out than maybe I would take the person with a BS over a BA, but even that sounds nit-picky.

I have a friend in Michigan who was very frustrated because he had more classless that he could apply to a BA in CS over a BS in CS. He thought this would be a real problem, but it turns out it didn't matter all that much. He is now a code monkey working at a well known software company that most of us have heard of.

networker050184 · July 2012

This is why I would never work for a place like this. If the degree you did 16 years ago still matters to what they are going to pay you then imagine what other kind of BS you would have to go through here. Take it as a warning of things to come and find a job at a place that values their employees actual ability to get the job done.

dave330i · July 2012

rwmidl wrote: »

In a way I'm going to disagree with this, I think HAVING the BS at the beginning of your career would be more beneficial. Once you get down the road, having experience should trump having a BS (so I would think).

As I've said earlier and few others noted, employers want their senior/management people to have a BS. Depending on the employer it may be a very soft requirement, but its easier to hire someone who meets all requirements.

NoTime2Burn · July 2012

rwmidl wrote: »

They didn't say. From what I remember about the listing, I met/exceeded the "listed" requirements. What is interesting is 3 days after the interview, they called and said they were going to extend an offer to me. I asked if they could email me the offer and also include info such as health insurance info (how much they pay/how much I would have to pay), retirement info, etc. Just so I could get a full understanding of the offer. They said no problem. The next day they called and said they had to rescind the offer as funding fell through. Maybe funding did fall through. Maybe they decided I was too "difficult" to work with. Who really knows.

Try not to feel bad about it. Federal year is almost over (October) and so money is tight/uncertain right now for a lot of agencies. I am almost positive they wouldn't rescind an offer because of how 'difficult' you think you might have been. 9 times out of 10, the people you speak with about the job are not tied to it at all and are instead located in a different building, in a different state and have little to do with the people you would actually work with (Other than fulfilling the "order" based on the specs they provide)

Keep an eye on jobs from that agency. I wouldn't be surprised if it pops up in October or November, provided that their budget is finalized and they get the allocation they need to support the job.

ccnxjr · July 2012

The thing about a degree is that it's a bit more of a universal benchmark of knowledge, especially with non-IT folk in HR.

Many government jobs also work on a "point" system, where formal education in a related field will score you higher points than if you have formal education in a non-related field but significantly more experience.
With more experience, it's harder for HR to rate it on a point scale, or the experience might have a "point cap" which is weighted less than formal education.
For some city/state jobs there might be a formal testing process which acts as a first round of screening, similar to the ASVAB test for the military.
However, for many higher skilled jobs, relevant education at a recognized institution (ie. accredited college) will suffice as this first round of screening.

Sometimes it's not just about HR trying to screw you over, but because they're trying to offset shady hiring practices they implement what is supposed to be an objective system, which eventually screens out the good with the bad.
You could probably get by on experience, but it may not be objective enough, especially if the department/branch of government has a history of nepotism and it's HR's job (the non-IT folk) to protect the organization from potential legal lash backs.
Also, even HR practices are subject to audit, so maybe two or three years from now, someone may go through hiring paperwork, and depending on how lazy the auditor is , they may not dig deeper than the first couple pages of an application and flag someone with higher formal, relevant education as more "deserving" for a position.
If someone takes a large organization to court over unfair promotions/hiring practices, documentation can make the difference between a swift ruling or long drawn out hearings....
In a paper driven environment, good credentials shine brighter than simply good work.

rwmidl · July 2012

They did say they would be contacting me once the Fed fiscal year resets and want to talk to me again. We shall see...

powerfool · July 2012

I have to concur with the silliness of all of this. I guess the only thing that I can offer is what others have suggested and what you have probably considered yourself... If you don't want this to be an issue going forward, you will need to take some sort of action: A) complete a BS or

complete a masters degree. The most value will likely come from doing a masters degree, but you may find that you need to take some more math/science to get into certain masters programs. I know it is something that you haven't exactly been keen on, but it does help with CPEs for your CISSP

You may just want to start a program somewhere part-time, that way you can always state that you are in progress on a program. If you end up not wanting to continue, that is always up to you. Now would be a good time to begin that, as the new school year is coming up and the end of the federal fiscal year is approaching.

I am going to throw this out there, as you have mentioned an MBA, not because I endorse it, but just because I am aware of it. UMUC has a dual-degree masters program for their cybersecurity programs and their MBA program. Once you complete the cybersecurity program, you can complete an MBA in half the time and cost. This may offer a more desirable method to get an MBA if it is something you don't exactly want to do, but you want the piece of paper. You would be able to focus on a potentially more desirable program and then just wrap up the MBA afterwards.

rwmidl · July 2012

Powerfool - thanks. I reached out to a friend of mine in town and he said yeah it's true. He has a BA too and got his MBA recently because his BA didn't show up in many labor categories (he's a PM, btw).

The company I'm with does have and encourage people go get their Masters in Cyber Security as well as an MBA. I need to do some reading internally to see what is offered/requirements..

NetworkVeteran · July 2012

Only one other time have I had someone say to me I couldn't make more money because I didn't have a B.S. With 12 years experience, you would think that would trump someone with a degree. That being said, does anyone think there is any truth to the fact that I can't "make more money" because I don't have a B.S. degree?

A degree has value, and not just at the entry-level. If everyone is offering you the salary you like but in these two cases, don't worry about it. If it's a pattern, consider bettering yourself. FWIW, our last security position required a CS/EE, the only exception being a CCIE Security holder. The candidate we actually hired had both, which was most desireable and common. Granted, that may be more of a networking-focused security position than the CISSP certification is targeting.

ptilsen · July 2012

This B.S. business is B.S. With your experience and certifications you are worth a crap load with no degree. I'm sure you'll find a position that pays you reasonably well and doesn't mention your degree.

N2IT · July 2012

I agree with Network.

Running out to get an MBA for a one off incident like this is not a wise idea. If you truly want to learn about business management (financial, accounting, supply chain, data analysis, human resources, etc) then that is a solid reason.

I decided to go with WGU's MBA program because it would give me additional business knowledge that I have not received. But my position is not technical and my new position is so far from technical it's not even funny. However, my B.Sc. gave me a solid foundation to go into an MBA program. Finance, Accounting, Management, Marketing are all curriculum I had to take at MSU. It has been extremely helpful with my transition into the MBA program.

DigitalZeroOne · July 2012

They may be low balling you regardless, however, some companies do get some type of benefit for having someone come in with a certain type of degree, or certain certifications if it's a DoD type contract. I was turned down for a position because I didn't have an EE degree, I have a CIS degree, but for some reason, the Government wanted someone with a EE, even though the job was a sys admin type job. I actually ended up getting a different position, that didn't require a degree at all. I will try and find out what type of benefit the companies get, it could be preferential treatment for the contract, but there is some type of perk.

N2IT · July 2012

@ DigitalZero

A friend of my from college graduated with an EE degree and was eligible for 2211 series (I believe) government development positions. In fact he waltz into a Java development job back in 2000 with his EE and his 2 classes on Java (electives) and hasn't looked back.

EE is a great degree to get.

We can't pay you more because you don't have a B.S.

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