Lucky IT vs unlucky ones

The IT

Why it becomes personal? my point was so simple if an IT gets the opportunity to work with big company that has lot of technologies they are lucky if the opposite they are unlucky.
If I take any person that replied to this topic they judged me as I am lazy, crying .... . Truth is I am not lazy neither crying, when I applied with the temp agency I did a great in their interviews and tests for Openstack Admin, Hadoop Admin, AWS Admin, Bash and Python scripting, ... In the interview I talked about earlier I did great just the guy started in the end asking me so specific questions equivalent to blue screen error codes in MS interview.
My problem is: all this knowledge is useless if it has no backup experience at a production env. That's said what needed is someone to believe in me give me opportunity just to pass a test or interview.
As IT and I bet anyone: there is a someone that believed in you and opened the door to gain experience, study and certification without chance, without luck useless.


A certification is not to gain knowledge: certification is a way to say please acknowledge that I know this and the vendor is my witness. If an IT work for a bank and worked his way to be in security team and prove himself do you think he will try to get CISSP?

networker050184

The IT wrote: »

That's said what needed is someone to believe in me give me opportunity just to pass a test or interview.
As IT and I bet anyone: there is a someone that believed in you and opened the door to gain experience, study and certification without chance, without luck useless.

You don't need someone to believe in you. You need to show someone you have what it takes. It's your responsibility to make sure that happens. Not theirs.

Mow

In my current role, I bugged the expletive out of my current manager for about 10 months before he gave me a shot. It was on the help desk, which was little more than answering phones and scheduling the senior folks to do the work. So I started just fixing some of it. Helped turn the help desk into a profit center instead of a cost center. Kept bugging my boss until he let me go into the field as a Microsoft guy. Busted my hump at work, got some Cisco certifications in my free time, kept bugging my boss to let me join our infrastructure team. Luck isn't even a tiny fraction of what you need. You need persistence and a good work ethic.

E Double U

gespenstern wrote: »

Luck plays a major role.

First off, it plays a huge role where you are born. One thing is to be born in the US, the other is to be born in Africa. Or, hell, even Latin America. You are ranting here about opportunities but at least you've got your native English, you've got your american education, you are not illegal immigrant from Mexico working for a little more than for food. Or H-1B Indus living with his buddies in a single apartment and having nothing besides work and sleep but it's okay with him because it's worse than that in India.

Agreed!

My success has always been a combination of luck and hard work. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and I worked hard to make the most of the opportunities available to me. Growing up in Los Angeles has made tons of opportunities available to me that so many people in rural America do not have let alone other countries.

I also consider myself lucky for knowing the right people at key moments. I was lucky to work with a CCIE that offered to give a group of us unlimited CCNA training. Lucky that the same guy put in a good word for me with the configuration manager. Lucky that another colleague recommended me for SOC. Lucky that a senior SOC engineer offered to teach me about security. I did my share of work after those moments, but I was still lucky to have those events occur. Or maybe I'm just a great human being that has good karma.

ImThe0ne

The IT wrote: »

A certification is not to gain knowledge: certification is a way to say please acknowledge that I know this and the vendor is my witness. If an IT work for a bank and worked his way to be in security team and prove himself do you think he will try to get CISSP?

I believe most people here would say you are incorrect in this statement. A certification completes both things you have listed, as the studying for the cert test gives you the knowledge to pass the cert test. Let's use your example, a guy who worked at the same bank, but worked himself into the Security position, more than likely couldn't walk into a CISSP test and pass it or even do remotely well for that matter. As the chances of the bank using EVERY piece of info in the CISSP are slim and none. Therefore, he would have a large amount of knowledge that he doesn't possess, to which he would need to gain to pass the test. Thus, you end up with a smarter security analyst.

There are many reasons to have the credentials to prove you do indeed know what you claim to know. Sometimes vendors give discounts for you employing their cert holders, maybe it gives the company a better reputation if you have 5 CISSP holders working on your Security team, etc.

I didn't make anything personal, that was your interpretation of it.

cyberguypr

I can't see anything here as the result of luck. By definition, luck is something brought by chance rather than through one's own actions. Sitting at home drinking and smoking, doing absolutely nothing (other than watching Jerry Springer or Judge Judy) and having some random person knock on your door and offer you a great job, that is luck. What this Craig Adams guy did had nothing to do with luck. That was a tactical, well-executed plan. You may not know the final outcome, but you know you are working towards something bigger and better.

All of you demonstrating success and attributing it to luck are showing that you did the leg work. When I wanted out of desktop support I looked for a company that was growing and was understaffed. I found my way to server admin in no time. Luck? No, good research and a strategic plan. I didn't rely on luck. I convinced others to make an informed decision.

The IT

E Double U wrote: »

Agreed!

My success has always been a combination of luck and hard work. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and I worked hard to make the most of the opportunities available to me. Growing up in Los Angeles has made tons of opportunities available to me that so many people in rural America do not have let alone other countries.

I also consider myself lucky for knowing the right people at key moments. I was lucky to work with a CCIE that offered to give a group of us unlimited CCNA training. Lucky that the same guy put in a good word for me with the configuration manager. Lucky that another colleague recommended me for SOC. Lucky that a senior SOC engineer offered to teach me about security. I did my share of work after those moments, but I was still lucky to have those events occur. Or maybe I'm just a great human being that has good karma.

This what I am talking about, being in a good team with a company that has opportunities, I worked in a small non profit that can offer just few "servers" and they changed the OS in EOL. There was no room to grow for IT, our IT Manager allowed us to get lot of training and spent lot of money on CBTs and books, also he paid for our college credits. We worked hard and trained hard. After the lay off, my coworker and I still struggling, I have almost no interview, for him he gets couple interviews. 3 months ago I get an opportunity with a big software company, passed 2 phones interviews and 1 onsite, I did well in it, my drawback was the lack of experience in production environment.

E Double U

The IT wrote: »

A certification is not to gain knowledge: certification is a way to say please acknowledge that I know this and the vendor is my witness. If an IT work for a bank and worked his way to be in security team and prove himself do you think he will try to get CISSP?

LOL this is exactly what I did! I landed my current role as an Info Sec Analyst with a bank security team in Feb '13. My cert path went CCNA Security > CCNP Security > CISSP > and now GCIH. I gain knowledge while studying for certifications and the hands on that I receive at the job. I like to have certifications that compliment the skills that I've acquired in a role. I did not have the CCNA when I joined the NOC, but after several years of touching routers everyday I thought it would be a good idea to go for that cert.

ImThe0ne

E Double U wrote: »

Agreed!

My success has always been a combination of luck and hard work. I was lucky to be in the right place at the right time and I worked hard to make the most of the opportunities available to me. Growing up in Los Angeles has made tons of opportunities available to me that so many people in rural America do not have let alone other countries.

I also consider myself lucky for knowing the right people at key moments. I was lucky to work with a CCIE that offered to give a group of us unlimited CCNA training. Lucky that the same guy put in a good word for me with the configuration manager. Lucky that another colleague recommended me for SOC. Lucky that a senior SOC engineer offered to teach me about security. I did my share of work after those moments, but I was still lucky to have those events occur. Or maybe I'm just a great human being that has good karma.

I don't really know that any of yours was "luck" per se. Honestly, most people aren't willing to do all of that without having some faith in you that you will do well and succeed. This sounds like a great organization, with good employees ready to help each other at the drop of a hat. But not luck, you showed them you were ready to work and they wanted to assist you.

bpenn

I don't believe in random luck. I believe that "luck" is simply opportunity. You just have to recognize it and grab for it.

When I joined the AF Reserves, I got 4 months of active duty as a Client Systems Administrator. I went in to that role knowing it was temporary and that I was going to absorb as much knowledge as I could. I busted my butt and knocked about around 175 tickets in the first 3 months. A contractor in my office took notice and recommended me to the hiring manager for job on base. That knowledge that I gained allowed me to answer his questions and ultimately get the job.

Now, I am 3 years in and trying to move to networking/infrastructure. I dont have the experience and I have been turned down left and right for jobs. But you know what I am doing? Just passed CCENT, taking CCNA next month, passed CISSP in March, 1 year left on my bachelors that I start in September. You know, I see these replies from companies that I dont have the required experience/knowledge you know what I do? I smile. Because it just drives me to study harder and work harder. I see my 2 year old daughter smile at me and I know that I want to provide for her more than I ever had. But I have to perservere - you just have to believe that all this hard work will pay off in the end. And, reading about Rodolfo's story, I absolutely know it will.

NetworkNewb

I absolutely hate the term "luck" in general. I feel when people say "luck" or "lucky" it just takes away something from an accomplishment.

Some things will bounce favorably or unfavorably. Just need to take the unfavorable bounces in stride and continue to work hard and you will find more of that so called "luck".

TheFORCE

In any field, including IT there are three qualities people need to have in order to propel their career forward.
1. Determination
2. Motivation
3. Sacrifice
those 3 create a triangle that moves you from one angle to the next in a circular motion.
without determination you will not find the motivation and without motivation you will not have the need to sacrifice other less important things in your life to accomplish your goal. Of course this is easier said than done and that is why there are only select few that are acomplished individuals.

networker050184

NetworkNewb wrote: »

I absolutely hate the term "luck" in general. I feel when people say "luck" or "lucky" it just takes away something from an accomplishment.

Some things will bounce favorably or unfavorably. Just need to take the unfavorable bounces in stride and continue to work hard and you will find more of that so called "luck".

I absolutely despise the term as well. It's usually lazy people telling me I'm lucky to have a good job, make good money and can afford nice things. It's not luck that I worked hard from a young age and made good decisions.

anoeljr

Luck can play a role in anything in life. If it weren't for some luck I may not have my job right now. Yea I study and all that crap, but if it weren't for some luck who knows what could've happened. Yea you can do everything right (study, get education, make contacts, etc) but sometimes opportunities just present themselves out of the blue. I'm grateful for all the luck (good/bad) because without it, I wouldn't be who I am today! Imo, anyone who thinks they did it all by themselves without any help (luck, karma, etc) is wrong.

networker050184

Of course you have to be in the right place at the right time, but they aren't just handing out jobs to any old average joe standing there. You still have to work hard and put yourself in that place. At that point is it really luck? Doesn't seem like it to me.

Mow

theforce wrote: »

in any field, including it there are three qualities people need to have in order to propel their career forward.
1. Determination
2. Motivation
3. Sacrifice
those 3 create a triangle that moves you from one angle to the next in a circular motion.
Without determination you will not find the motivation and without motivation you will not have the need to sacrifice other less important things in your life to accomplish your goal. Of course this is easier said than done and that is why there are only select few that are acomplished individuals.

^^^this^^^

anoeljr

Yea, I definitely agree with you on that.

ArabianKnight

I think there is a luck element always in play with this sort of thing. For example, a former Air Force firefighter turned SEO genius here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2G9bKneLM the guy is so young.

I could work hard digging ditches and never make it big while others end up owning their own ditch digging business and make millions. I know hard work pays off, many people work hard and don't really make it while a small percentage "get lucky"

Mow

ArabianKnight wrote: »

I think there is a luck element always in play with this sort of thing. For example, a former Air Force firefighter turned SEO genius here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2G9bKneLM the guy is so young.

I could work hard digging ditches and never make it big while others end up owning their own ditch digging business and make millions. I know hard work pays off, many people work hard and don't really make it while a small percentage "get lucky"

But that's the point. If you're digging ditches all day and never take that step to start a business, you'll never be a business owner. It takes hard work and determination. No one would just give the guy a ditch digging business. You can work hard all day long, but if you're not working towards something better, you will never get there.

NetworkNewb

ArabianKnight wrote: »

I think there is a luck element always in play with this sort of thing. For example, a former Air Force firefighter turned SEO genius here:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW2G9bKneLM the guy is so young.

There is luck involved with this guy that found a service he could provide to people and make money off it?

ArabianKnight

NetworkNewb wrote: »

There is luck involved with this guy that found a service he could provide to people and make money off it?

He is VERY successful! When so many others try this and fail.....

NetworkNewb

ArabianKnight wrote: »

He is VERY successful! When so many others try this and fail.....

So he found a way that works, so he is lucky. Gotcha

cowill

TheFORCE wrote: »

In any field, including IT there are three qualities people need to have in order to propel their career forward.
1. Determination
2. Motivation
3. Sacrifice
those 3 create a triangle that moves you from one angle to the next in a circular motion.
without determination you will not find the motivation and without motivation you will not have the need to sacrifice other less important things in your life to accomplish your goal. Of course this is easier said than done and that is why there are only select few that are acomplished individuals.

Close thread ^^^^^^

The IT

My former manager allowed us to have any training of choice, gave us access to CBTs and books, changed our schedule so we can study: Am I lucky to have a boss like him or I get that because dedication and determination.

I understand determination, dedication and sacrifice are the keys but also who you know too. The small push is a must because it saves time, the gentleman I spoke about in my intro: he was selling computers, his friend get him job as entry level Helpdesk, in 2010 with the boom of the cloud and Devops tools his company shifted to this tools which made him what he is today. I don't deny that he was dedicated and sharp BUT he was lucky that he has friend that helped him to change career and also lucky as his company made the shift and update in tools. Same person if his company didn't made the shift do you think he will be a senior Devops within 3 years from a Helpdesk?

We all have job experience and we know that troubleshooting and being exposed to the technology is the shortcut of learning.
Any Sys Admin may learn programming or scripting but if they don't use it they lose it.

NetworkNewb

The IT wrote: »

My former manager allowed us to have any training of choice, gave us access to CBTs and books, changed our schedule so we can study: Am I lucky to have a boss like him or I get that because dedication and determination.

Don't most people just ask companies when they are hiring them if they provide training?

I feel like I'm beating a dead horse. I guess if some people feel it was luck they got to where they are that is all good. Different strokes for different folks.

E Double U

The IT wrote: »

My former manager allowed us to have any training of choice, gave us access to CBTs and books, changed our schedule so we can study: Am I lucky to have a boss like him or I get that because dedication and determination.

I'm lucky to have a CISO like this. Pays for training, reimburses for books/exams, doesn't mind that I study at work, etc. I have the determination and motivation to accomplish my goals even without having a boss like this, but I do feel lucky to have this current manager.

UnixGuy

The IT wrote: »

.... tests for Openstack Admin, Hadoop Admin, AWS Admin, Bash and Python scripting, ... ...

I don't get personal, and I understand that the above technologies emerged quickly and some companies just expect you to know them..

But it's not like that everywhere - trust me! Keep applying! Some companies will list AWS/Puppet/BigData/etc etc...but they would be on their way to migrate to those things or they will even train you. You have no way of guessing what they want unless you apply.

So here's an action plan:
1. Apply to as many jobs as you can. Not one temp agency, just keep applying on job websites. Apply to all the jobs u see everyday. No exceptions.

2. Choose one technology and start playing around. Choose puppet for example and start implementing stuff. I know I know this is not production environment experience but it will make HUGE difference. You don't need a certification here, just start configuring stuff with Puppet. It's easier than you think.

3. IF and only IF you have some extra money, do AWS training. It's EASIER than you imagine. Do the AWS Architect training and cert. IT WILL MAKE AS HUGE DIFFERENCE. And I repeat IT'S EASIER THAN YOU THINK. You passed RHCE, those certs/technologies are WAY easier!!

4. I don't know you as a person, but if you feel that there is a room for improvement for your resume and/or interview skills, work on that. Why not.



Good luck. Brush off the negativity, it's not as bad as it seems

Christian.

You don't seem willing to accept you have flaws and the inability to deal with that fact is your real enemy. Instead of accepting you need to improve in certain areas, you are putting the blame on luck, like everyone who is successful had luck and nothing else. They didn't work hard or knew how to get what they wanted, they had luck and everything was handed to them. A business will not hire you because they are good and want to give you a chance to show yourself, no! They will hire you if they see you as an asset that fits their needs. You target what they need and you show them how you can fulfill those needs. If they are looking for a successful professional in Cisco, you have to show them you are a successful professional in Cisco, not that you can become one if they give you time, money and access to their environment.

I haven't seen anyone mentioning this, but you also have a big issue with the way you express yourself. An interview process is about the whole package, not just your technical skills. The way you talk, your behavior, your attitude, everything matters. I doubt a company in the US will ignore if the candidate doesn't talk properly. Being from another country isn't a excuse, it's up to you to show you are at the same level that other candidates. That's a huge disadvantage that you need to take care if you want to compete with native people that has the same skill-set than you. There are many things you can do to improve your "luck".

The IT

We are closing this topic, I used "we" because 3 people "invented" this topic.

Here is the truth: Last week in a meetup at SF a conversation ended up about how many IT are struggling especially old school admins (Windows ones in particular) are struggling in this everyday changing market, new tools emerging and it's hard to keep up. Just check Indeed or Dice for a Sys Admin in the Bay Area to understand how hard it is to just fulfill half of the requirement.

In this conversation the subject of "luck" vs "skills" become a main topic. Many IT from different companies are there and most of them admit that they are where they are now because of the "push" you may call it referral, being in a company at the right time when technologies changed. There was people making 6 figures and just few years or even months back in jobs that are not IT related. There is people who are dedicated and good too I will never deny that and they get the opportunity with their skills.

We decided to bring this topic to this forum as it's more diversified and we tried to run like a survey "luck" vs "skills". Most of the replies not even close, many replies made it sound that successful people are there with learning, studying and dedication: I tell this people search this forum for people straggling to level up and you will be surprised by the quantity.

Who I am? I manage Openstack and Hadoop clusters, I create and run scripts in a daily basis. It's true that I worked at non profit and my boss provide us training but after the layoff I spend 6 months jobless knocking every door and applying left and right with just few interviews which I made it to level 2 or 3 but get declined for production environment.

I will not lie I am lucky, I met this guy in a meetup, he works for a company that I applied twice into. I told him that I applied and did not even get an email or call so he said he will check with the recruiter. I got interview and passed all tests. The manager told me I have the probation period to prove my self and make no mistake, and here I am.

I believe it's luck that get me in this position (dedication did not get me the interview call) also I am lucky that now I can learn and prove myself as I am in an environment that provide experience and knowledge.

The promise that I gave myself is to help any IT that comes from small a environment because I was there and I know how they feel. Lot of smart sharp Helpdesk are there looking for just an opportunity or chance.

techfiend

Supply of sys admins greatly exceeds the demand in many areas that are loaded with msp's. IT is a fluid field and you have to be willing to change in order to advance, that's half the fun.