Robert Half Technology!!!!!!!!

cacharo

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-fulfilling_prophecy

networker050184

I am not going through hard times, and my income is more than "respectable." I was just bringing up the fact that you are not the only one that has a family and bills in this industry since you always say "you single guys." As long as I have been in this field I have never struggled to pay them. This is my point, what you are going through is not "the norm" and you telling people it is is BS. I know plenty of people in the networking field who have never had your issue either. My first job after the military was answering phones and I didn't like it all, but you know what I stuck with it and moved up! I'm now working a great position which I am the least experienced person, but since i have put in my time I was given the opportunity even though I didn't have as much experience as "required."


Of course companies want experience, its a fact of life. Do you think anyone is born with experience? No, most people start at the bottom and work up, which it seems you are unwilling to do.

LarryDaMan

Honestly, it sounds like CrunchyHippo bought into the dream of graduating and falling into a job with a high salary. With multiple kids, high car and mortage payments... maybe entry level IT is not the way to go. But, if you can make it through the struggle of entry level paychecks, you may end up with a very rewarding career.

famosbrown

Well...it is possible to land a high paying job after college...I did.

I went to school for MIS and learned how to program. I graduated college and entered a entry-level Leadership type program doing programming making over 60K per year starting out. I decided to leave programming and enter the "networking" field, so I went to Desktop Support Manager Tier 2 (degree got me that) and then someone gave me an opportunity to gain experience as a Systems Administrator...just like someone has given everyone who has experience...you aren't born with it.

How can you gain network/systems administration experience answering phones at a call center. How can you gain the experience replacing hard drives or doing desktop support? Someone has to give you the chance to gain that experience...even if it's free...they are taking a risk for allowing an inexperience, but educated person touch critical things on the network infrastructure.

Read some other posts in this forum and you will see other success stories where people are given the opportunity to use what they learned in the "networking" field without the work experience doing it.

And to top it off, noone should compalin about not getting a job after college if they are majoring in Physical Education and trying to break into the I.T. field. If you learned programming in college, you can land high paying jobs...same goes to Chemical Engineers, Electrical Engineers, Computer Science, etc. I do not know of any degrees from FORMAL schools that prepare you for the "networking" field, i.e. Microsoft, Cisco, Help desk, Systems Administration, Network Engineering, etc.

LarryDaMan

Good points, but in IT (networking specifically), a high paying job after graduation with no experience is the exception not the norm.

kaynaan

lets get this discussion back on track i beleive it was about opinions about Roberts Half Tech.

like othrs have already mentioned they are good for someone with 5+ years of expereince and MS is their thing their Cisco side is a joke.

I had an interview with them a couple of weeks ago ... i had this test that was chok full of Novell IPX questions and BGP .... even thought my resume clearly states CCNA.

networker050184

Hey just because you only have a CCNA doesn't mean you do not know nothing about BGP or Novell....

kaynaan

^ that maybe .. but the understanding was that i was to be tested on CCNA level stuff the position was a junior one.

CCNA level does not include BGP and has not included IPX for the last 5 years

dynamik

networker050184 wrote:

Hey just because you only have a CCNA doesn't mean you do not know nothing about BGP or Novell....

Exactly! I'm not even a CCENT, and I've learned how to setup MD5 authentication between BGP peers

Seriously though, that's a good point. Your certs aren't always representative of your abilities (and vice versa). Look at Mike. He only has professional level certs, but he's constantly answering CCIE-level questions from all the different disciplines. I'm convinced he's basically a quad-CCIE, but he just doesn't have the time to make it official.

shednik

I agree with you famosbrown the issue with crunchy is this I don't believe and i could be wrong that he has an IT degree he made it sound to me like he didn't. But it's been suggested numerous times to him that he should get some experience since he has none, but he seems to not want to settle for a help desk related position. I got a great job out of college but I also started during my last 2 years of school first working in a call center and then moved to desktop support while going to school. The issue I have is that crunchy continues to post negative comments on IT and it's really getting to become old and is irritating a lot of people. If someone really wants to make it in the field they can find a way, I have a family as well and I worked a shitty day job in IT and waited tables at night to pick up the loose ends. If you find the right place you can also do well at the help desk level at some places. I know my company hires contractors at a decent rate to start off. He just seems to think he will be handed a network admin and voip work off the bat. In normal cases it just doesn't work that way and he won't accept it.

Tech109

Speaking from the other side of the fence - I work for a company that uses RHT for some remote jobs when it's too expensive to have one of our techs travel, and we've had good experiences.

We've used them to do inventory, move and setup equipment, as well as image machines, so I would expect that they are able to find work for people with varying degrees of skill and experience.

MCPWannabe

hmmmm.. We left the conversation about the Hot recruiter women.

Here is my opinion. You don't have to start at $8.50 an hour. Get your certifications and you will move up fast.

As much as people knock them, they still mean a lot. Yes, experience is good.. But I've seen plenty of people with lots of experience who could barely troubleshoot anything. The certifications, when done right (and not using brain ****) do at least verify that a person has the intelligence and drive to learn the material.

There are plenty of people who don't have the affinity for this field -- trust me, I've worked at enough call centers to see plenty of them.

Also, you'll find something else out. As the certifications in marketable areas increase, so will the job offers. Employers will start to look at you in terms of what you can offer, and they will want to give you a shot to prove yourself if you convince them that you can do it.

Not everyone wants to pay the big time money to get a proven Programmer, DBA, or Network Administrator. There are plenty of places that will give you a shot with a decent buck.

At my last call center, MCSE's without any experience, started at 55K a year.

My advice, put your head down, get your credentials up, and look for a job when you feel that you have the necessary credentials to demonstrate demand.

LarryDaMan

MCPWannabe wrote:

At my last call center, MCSE's without any experience, started at 55K a year.

These MCSE's shouldn't exist!

Microsoft would benefit the community and the certifications greatly if they attempted to institute some verifiable experience requirements and auditing.

The MCSE has been so devalued by these paper tigers!

Does anyone else remember 10 years ago when people were practically in awe of MCSEs?

Now, not so much...

dynamik

I'm fine with it as long as us "real" ones make $80k+

I'd like to see more lab-based exams. I don't like experience requirements because they penalize people who haven't been fortunate enough to land a job, but have put time in elsewhere. I bet I've learned more in my lab studies than a decent number of people who have spent years actually in an MS environment. A lab obviously isn't going to necessarily be the same as real-world experience, but I definitely think it can get you up to a competent level.

I think some, like the CISSP, do depend more on experience. However, even they'll let you take the exam and become an associate it.

Forsaken_GA

dynamik wrote:

I'm fine with it as long as us "real" ones make $80k+

I'd like to see more lab-based exams. I don't like experience requirements because they penalize people who haven't been fortunate enough to land a job, but have put time in elsewhere. I bet I've learned more in my lab studies than a decent number of people who have spent years actually in an MS environment. A lab obviously isn't going to necessarily be the same as real-world experience, but I definitely think it can get you up to a competent level.

Well, it depends.

Lab environments teach you (or should!) best practices for doing things. When you walk into a job that someone else just vacated and they may have done their job using the 'what-link-my-google-search-turned-up-first' method, that's when the learned idiosyncrasies of having real world experience will do you well. It's pretty rare you get to walk into an environment and set things up from scratch, and learning to deal with a legacy setup can be frustrating... especially with your new boss looking over your shoulder wondering whether they should have hired you in the first place.

OTOH, most companies aren't stupid enough to throw folks with no experience into that kind of setup. As long as there are some experienced folks to keep an eye on folks with no 'real' experience, it usually works out ok.

Slowhand

Crunchyhippo wrote:

networker050184 wrote:

Crunchyhippo wrote:

JustAnotherGeek77 wrote:

Experience is where its at in this game folks.....

To many of us think that It is a turn key solution to success. RIGHT. WAKE up!.. You have to put in your time and prove your worth. You have to keep thinking out side the box and not just slump around and say hey i have my cert I am an expert when you really are nothing. Take this from a guy that's been there. fresh out of college with windows nt certs, Dos and unix background. Yes DOS and unix for all you GUI mouse clicking mites. Thinking I was Hot s##t cause I knew more than most from OTHER activities . But then I got slapped with being the helper of a help desk tech making $8.50 an hour

Know what happened. I stuck it out..

A couple of comments here.....

I agree completely - experience is where its [sic] at, sir.

So how do I get some of this elusive experience with *I begin laughing here* just a mere education? And, btw - I'm wanting to break into the networking field with my education and certs, and I'm currently working in a non-networking field. And I have a wife and children who depend on me financially, so "putting in my time" at $8.50/hr. will only succeed in starving us to death. I'm not making networking salary right now, unfortunately, but it's not as bad as 8.50/hr, and I'm still going in the hole. Maybe to you single guys this low pay is a viable alternative, but if this is what it takes to get into networking and you're married (and especially with kids) and they look to you for a paycheck, then abandon networking aspirations. Yeah, I know, do it because you enjoy it, but bills are a solid reality in life that have to be resolved.

Unlike, say, accounting or architechture or even computer programming, you can't reasonably expect to get a decent job when you finish your education and finish beating your brains out; you first have to either "intern" (i.e. "work for free" for the uninitiated) or work for peanuts (i.e. work for a salary you would otherwise normally laugh at) in order to "stick it out" as you put it.

Welcome to the world of networking.

Why do you continue to come and post this BS about the IT field? Trust me you are not the only person who has a wife and children. I have a wife and three children. I'm putting my wife through school (which means daycare for the kids also) so you are not the only one with bills. If you think its too hard to get a job in the networking field then move on and stop trying to bring everyone else down with you. Its not that hard to find a job, you should start looking at yourself rather than blaming everything on "the world of networking."

Uh, what dreamworld are you living in, networker050184? You say it's BS, but you haven't refuted a single thing I've said. So you're going through hard times, too? Like I said, welcome to the world of networking if you don't have experience. You're going to go through hard times at first before you start to see a respectable income. I think this just proves my point.

Maybe you're the one who should be "moving on" from this board instead of giving newbies unfamiliar with networking false expectations. And if you think it's "not that hard to find a job" (especially after the mortgage meltdown), you're either being disingenuous or you're just ignorant about the job field. Want a job at 8.50/hr? Sure, you'll probably find one. Looking for one where you can actually make your house/car payments? Look long and hard. And you think I'm saying this just because I'm experiencing sour grapes? Hmm - well, I wonder why others in my networking graduating class are echoing the same things I'm saying a year after graduation?

I'm not against networking as a career; but know what you're getting into and don't believe the hype that the schools are unloading about the great pay when school is over. Look at Monster/Yahoo Hot Jobs/Dice if you doubt me. Do you see a job listing that doesn't say "requires 2/3/5 years experience" minimum? Anywhere? Education doesn't get you a decent job; experience does. Maybe the market will swing back to where it once was, maybe not. In the meantime, walk into this with your eyes open and knowing what you're walking into.

Crunchyhippo, I can't help but think of one thing when I read your posts: "Who is John Galt?"

astorrs

Slowhand wrote:

Crunchyhippo, I can't help but think of one thing when I read your posts: "Who is John Galt?"

Yes he seams to shout it out loud in every post.

gojericho0

astorrs wrote:

Slowhand wrote:

Crunchyhippo, I can't help but think of one thing when I read your posts: "Who is John Galt?"

Yes he seams to shout it out loud in every post.

Just bought the book off of amazon

MCPWannabe

See, I'm not quite ready to chalk everything up to the experience factor. While experience is important, what a person gets out of the experience is entirely dependent on the individual.

One of my friends just got out of law school and they started him at $160,000 a year without him even passing the bar yet. Sure, an average attorney with 5 years of experience will be better than him initially. But in two years, the average attorney probably won't belong in the same courtroom as him. This isn't uncommon for top prospects at law schools.

And I see it in other fields: sports, MBA's, top college graduates, etc..

What I'm trying to say is that at some point, things are really dependent on the talent of the individual, and certifications, when done properly, do go towards indicating talent.

And likewise, IT is the same way. I have friends who graduated with computer science degrees, with no experience, that started at jobs close to 100K a year -- simply due to the fact that they started at a good school with good grades.

On the other hand, I've seen the bad side of IT with experience in many call centers. I've seen people who just got out of jail, have trouble speaking in their NATIVE English tongue, with drug habbits, work as 'IT professionals' with over a decade of experience. Yet, they didn't know the first thing about networking, programming, or software troubleshooting.

Furthermore, having worked for a fortune 100 company just recently, I had the opportunity to remote into many small business computers as call center support. If you only knew how many times, I had to tell a "Network Administrator" to type 'ipconfig' or 'ping' or 'print route.' Some of these 'network administrators' have been at their positions for years and don't know how to run a network.

*** Recently, I had a network administrator from a major charity beg me to help her configure DNS. I had just learned how to do it from the 291 exam. She had been working for 8 years as the charities head network admin and her network was crashed.

** I've seen plenty of networkers set up two networks by accident with two different brands of routers.

*** I've walked administrators through reading a routing table***

I can tell you right now that this was all basic stuff covered in the Microsoft exams. So, though I agree with everyone about the experience factor, there is something to be said for talent.

If you can show companies that you have talent, you won't have trouble getting a good job. Certifications and College are still an excellent way to do that.

famosbrown

larrydaman wrote:

Good points, but in IT (networking specifically), a high paying job after graduation with no experience is the exception not the norm.

Please note that I said that the "Networking" field of I.T. is tough due to the lack of Formal/Traditional colleges teaching Systems/Network/Desktop Support...

But other degrees are MORE successful in landing high paying jobs right out of college...it just depends on what degree...Law, Medical, Engineers, Programmers (Computer Science), etc.

oo_snoopy

MCPWannabe wrote:

*** I've walked administrators through reading a routing table***

Hehe,

I had to tell a network guy how to view the log in a cisco router once.

Slowhand

gojericho0 wrote:

astorrs wrote:

Slowhand wrote:

Crunchyhippo, I can't help but think of one thing when I read your posts: "Who is John Galt?"

Yes he seams to shout it out loud in every post.

Just bought the book off of amazon

I'm still wrapping my brain around all of it, (takes some time when you get a philosophical sledgehammer to the face ). Honestly, I can't think of a better book to read, if you expect to learn what it is to survive in IT, let alone thrive and rise up in the ranks.

I keep thinking to myself, who would I rather be: Hank Rearden or James Taggart? That's a thought I keep in my brain every time I step into a classroom, open a cert-book, and get up and go to work, these days.

Crunchyhippo

larrydaman wrote:

Honestly, it sounds like CrunchyHippo bought into the dream of graduating and falling into a job with a high salary. With multiple kids, high car and mortage payments... maybe entry level IT is not the way to go. But, if you can make it through the struggle of entry level paychecks, you may end up with a very rewarding career.

That's a nice strawman argument you knocked down, larrydaman, refuting comments I never made. Please don't put words in my mouth. I never expected a high salary right out of school, and you'll never find me saying that anywhere in here. However, I did expect to be able to find a job making a decent wage, knowing I'd have to move up the ladder. My point to those new to networking is that you're going to need some kind of experience - any kind of experience - to hope to get employment in this field, unless you have time to sit and wait for that employer to call who is willing to take you without experience and train you. And I can say after a year of fruitless hunting that one will wait a while for that kind of job to come through. Any of you can speculate and offer opinions all you want, but reality has shown me different. And I'm far from alone on this, btw.

One will not start out in this field right out of school making a ton of money. But one shouldn't have to start out as a PC tech or something making ten bucks an hour, either - not after having worked one's butt off getting a CCNA (and often more). It seems that many of the posters on this board settle into the extremes - either "you're not going to get a high paying job starting out" (I agree), or "start out with a Best Buy tech job or helpdesk starting at 25k/yr in order to get experience after you've worked for your CCNA." Like I said before, if you're single, young, or have no FT job, waiting or taking a low-paying job is an option. For the rest of us, there are better opportunities out there than this.

networker050184

There may be better opportunities out there, but for most of us we do this because we enjoy it. We do not do it for the big bucks.

MCPWannabe

Crunchy,

I wanted to respond to this.. Basically, I can understand where you are coming from as an older student with a family myself. No matter what happens, ultimately my family's financial well-being is on me and that can be a lot of pressure.

With that being said, your pursuing a career in IT does not have to be an exercise in poverty.

Having just completed my MBA, I can say that for the most part, it was a bunch of abstract terms and equations to understand common sense lessons.

One common sense lesson dealt with unemployment. Basically, here is what I learned: those that actively come up are able to constantly stay ahead of the game by updating their skills as to the will of the economy. To do this, it requires that we constantly update our skills.

10 years ago, I worked at my first call center. I remember a guy who was 18 years old and got his MCP in Windows. He was hired at an IT firm for $38,000 a year one week after getting his certification. Years ago, a MCP or CCNA was considered gold. Then, it became MCSE. Now, it is MCSE with some skill like virtualization, SQL, etc. Likewise, a CCNA is not what it once was.. Now, the demand is for a CCNA with a speciality.

The key being that I can understand your sentiments, that comes from pressure, but you are doing the right thing.

You are working on the CCNA--Voice, which is highly in demand right now. 2 years from now the market will probably be flooded with CCNA-Voice entrants, but not right now. In my area, I've seen several job ads for CCNA voice skills that have been left up for months unfilled.

There is a local university right next to me that willing to waive the experience requirement for a CCNA voice and pay the person 43K a year to start if they have the certification. The job has been unfilled since May.

So, the key is to remain patient and do what you are doing. You'll get your payday when your skills reach the level of demand necessary to get the salary that you want.

Slowhand

Crunchyhippo wrote:

My point to those new to networking is that you're going to need some kind of experience - any kind of experience - to hope to get employment in this field, unless you have time to sit and wait for that employer to call who is willing to take you without experience and train you. And I can say after a year of fruitless hunting that one will wait a while for that kind of job to come through. Any of you can speculate and offer opinions all you want, but reality has shown me different. And I'm far from alone on this, btw.

That's the trick, isn't it? You do need experience, that's true, but you also have to understand that it's not the only thing that employers look for. I took a step up from doing PC repair, barely taking advantage of the skills I'd learned with A+, and stepped directly up to a job as systems engineer for a tier-1 ISP and datacenter. I asked the sr. network engineer, at one point, why they'd hired me, and not only turned others with more experience down, but also fired a few people who had a broader background than I did. His answer was that I came through the door ready to work, willing to learn, and most important, I "appeared both confident and competent". I hadn't told them what I needed, only what I was able to do, what I wasn't able to do, and that I was ready to take on whatever they threw at me to get the job done.

The jobs are out there, but they're not waiting for you to come get them, you have to go and earn them. If you don't have the experience, you can make up for it with a willingness to learn, or if you don't have work-experience you can make up for it with hands-on labs. There's always going to be reasons x, y, and z, that things are hard and not going your way; it's the same for everyone. Trouble is, those reasons can torpedo your efforts just as easily as a lack of qualifications or experience, if you let them overshadow your eagerness to work. As long as you know how to do your job and you're willing to work, and that's what you're driven to do, there will be someone to hire you. Experience has proven me right on this one, and I'm definitely not alone on it, either.

oo_snoopy

Crunchyhippo wrote:

One will not start out in this field right out of school making a ton of money. But one shouldn't have to start out as a PC tech or something making ten bucks an hour, either - not after having worked one's butt off getting a CCNA (and often more). It seems that many of the posters on this board settle into the extremes - either "you're not going to get a high paying job starting out" (I agree), or "start out with a Best Buy tech job or helpdesk starting at 25k/yr in order to get experience after you've worked for your CCNA." Like I said before, if you're single, young, or have no FT job, waiting or taking a low-paying job is an option. For the rest of us, there are better opportunities out there than this.

Why shouldn't one have to earn there experience? Sorry if I sound rude, but the CCNA isn't that hard, I've seen people do it in a month (no, not brain ****) I did my full CCNP in a couple months(mind you with lots of cisco experience).

I also worked for 9 dollars an hour fixing pc tech before I got my ISP job, while going to school. When I got the job I was super stoked about getting the experience, I could care less what they payed.



Crunchy, how much are you making now doing what? Or do you think you're too good for PC tech work? Why would it kill you to start getting some experience?

shednik

oo_snoopy wrote:

Crunchy, how much are you making now doing what? Or do you think you're too good for PC tech work? Why would it kill you to start getting some experience?

Honestly I'm sick of hearing him complain I've suggested it to him countless times even did a search on dice for him and showed him all the help desk/pc support jobs in florida. No he never says a word about it i don't know if he thinks he's too good for it or what. It's really not that difficult to move up in this field if you work hard, have good people skills, and just keep learning while you bide your time for the opportunity you've been waiting for. You just need to work hard and stay motivated!

vsmith3rd

OK, I've never dealt with RHT, but the general consensus seems to be that they suck...really hard. With this many negative reviews, its just a case of "buyer beware." You all have piqued my curiousity though, just to see how bad they can get.

Crunchy, keep your head up. I'd hate to see you leave TE because it got a little hot in here.

nick5454

As per the original and complaints about RHI.

They got me a job when I had 2 years of experience and it was good ( Houston, TX )

They recently got me a job and I now have 15 or so year exp. a head hunter is a headhunter

I took all their tests and signed their forms, annoying but really if you want a job then do it. RHI/Tek Systems have 50% of the jobs. I don't like Tek systems and here's why: Had an interview went well, next interview to meet with CIO and reschedules 3 times ( daughters is sick, grand daughter doesn't have a way home, execs want an emergency interview with another exec ) so they told them if it's 100% then schedule an interview, otherwise forget the job. That one is very unprofessional and 2, wth? Just say you have to meet after work with em since I scheduled the 1/2 day vacations for the dude. But (Energy company) always interviews everyone in the city and the CIO rescheduling seems not very organized.

RHI - Good experience and filling out 5 forms is really nothing in the grand schemes of things. I told them I wanted xxx digits or no deal ( 20% raise throwing me into 6 digits). They found a few and then the one I wanted 2 months later and I was hired 2 hours after the interview. The paychecks however ticked me off, consistently 5 days late until direct deposit is set up. I worked for a place called Diamond Offshore which was a bad experience with a girl named Jade Marcantel who lies about stuff and after 3 years still doesn't know what a switch is other than it turns off the overhead light with a boss that takes her word because she's a blonde ex-school teacher. Ok, so I won't go there... She's just a shark that says bad stuff about employees that isn't true and her god-father is the CFO. Otherwise, loved the company.

They (RHI) only in it for the money argument - Really? They're a business and have to make money. The recruiter isn't a volunteer to may you happy. My first gig I got at 30/hr and the owner paid 270/hr. Double is a lot less now. You know once the owner wants to hire you, you can say ok you just got me a job for 65/hr and the owner is paying 130ish, so why not give me 70? Usually they'll do it, since you pretty much have all the cards. I do it all the time when I get hired. LOL, tek systems yelled at me cause i've done it several times. They said you either take the exact amount we said in the beginning. I said no I want 10 more. They say "so you're rejecting the offer" I say "if I don't get 10 more, I can stay at my job longer until I get what I want". They say "Ok, we'll tell the client you decline". I say "Ok, if you don't want to compromise". LOL, I got what I wanted 2 weeks later from RHI. That and I have glowing references (5).

Getting hired on certs - Certs don't matter, maybe a little more for admins. Experience is king and school labs don't make any bit of difference. A lab has nothing to do with the real world. Reading books teaches best practices because you learn the "why" the best practice is done, which is better than just learning it a lab or on the job. If a kid is in school then interning is better than any lab or cert.

Btw I make big bucks because I read a new computer book every 3 weeks, study at home, run a few open source projects and when i'm at work I get my hands in everything.

I'm putting some new cam and heads in my z06 next week

Not trying to make anyone upset, but thats my experience and 1/2 a penny