Disappointed with my salary after 1.5 years and a MCSE?!

Schluep

Goldmember wrote:

royal wrote:

What I am trying to say is, work hard, stay organized, have a good work ethic, and your company won't want to lose you and will give you the salary you deserve.

Are you working for Disneyland? haha

just kidding

Royal's avatar already answers that question .

garv221

HeroPsycho wrote:

Look, don't take it personally. They know EXACTLY what they're doing. They underpaid to get someone with no experience who might be able to do the job for peanuts. They used you for your ability to learn and do what they needed. You used them to get experience.

Play it like the game that it is.

If you can find another job that allows you to pay that money back to them and you get better experience, leave.

If you want, go ahead and ask for the raise in the meantime. Look, it hurts THEM if they don't pay you more because you're gonna leave, and they'll be right back where they were, hiring someone who can't do the job at first and who can hopefully learn because for them, it's all about keeping costs low.

Truthfully, they're not gonna be able to pay you what you're worth. That's why they gave you the job over someone more experienced in the first place because no one with experience would have accepted that job for 30K.

Realize who you're working for, and don't take it personally if they choose to not pay you what you should be paid. You should have already known this was gonna happen. You did the absolute right thing to take the job because the experience is invaluable for your career. The money they're gonna force you to pay back is minuscule compared to the jump in salary you should be able to command on the open market.

Also, learn that in this field, typically speaking, you make your money coming in the door, not by staying at a company. It's unfortunate, but true.

Exactly.

eMeS

and no I cannot quit because I signed a 2 year contract saying I would not quit for 2 years and if I do I owe 7k within 12 months of quitting and 3.5k in 13-24 months of quitting.

You might want to check into this. As far as I know Illinois is a right to work state. Everytime I've heard of an employer signing an employee to this kind of contract in a right to work state, the contract never holds water if the employer tries to sue for reimbursement of training expenses.

I knew one person who went through this exact situation with EDS, and ended up paying nothing. Generally this is a scare tactic that some companies use.

Basically, my understanding is that training expenses are seen as a business risk borne by the employer. Right to work means that either party can terminate employment at any time for any reason. It is also my understanding that you cannot sign away your "right to work" protection.

I would check around (talk to an attorney?) on this...I'm not certain that your options are as limited as you think they are.

MS

eMeS

eMeS wrote:

and no I cannot quit because I signed a 2 year contract saying I would not quit for 2 years and if I do I owe 7k within 12 months of quitting and 3.5k in 13-24 months of quitting.

You might want to check into this. As far as I know Illinois is a right to work state. Everytime I've heard of an employer signing an employee to this kind of contract in a right to work state, the contract never holds water if the employer tries to sue for reimbursement of training expenses.

I knew one person who went through this exact situation with EDS, and ended up paying nothing. Generally this is a scare tactic that some companies use.

Basically, my understanding is that training expenses are seen as a business risk borne by the employer. Right to work means that either party can terminate employment at any time for any reason. It is also my understanding that you cannot sign away your "right to work" protection.

I would check around (talk to an attorney?) on this...I'm not certain that your options are as limited as you think they are.

MS

I did some more checking and it looks like Illinois is not a right to work state. Also I found out that right to work status might not be relevant in this case...so I think they net there is good news.

My advice is to search the net for other people that have been in similar contracts and figure out what they did and whether it worked. Also, checking with an attorney in your state might provide you with a simple 1 minute answer to this question.

MS

Schluep

eMeS wrote:

You might want to check into this. As far as I know Illinois is a right to work state. Everytime I've heard of an employer signing an employee to this kind of contract in a right to work state, the contract never holds water if the employer tries to sue for reimbursement of training expenses.

I knew one person who went through this exact situation with EDS, and didn't pay anything.

Basically, my understanding is that training expenses are seen as a business risk borne by the employer. Right to work means that either party can terminate employment at any time for any reason.

I would check around (talk to an attorney?) on this...I'm not certain that your options are as limited as you think they are.

MS

He signed the contract and I believe he should honor it on those grounds alone. Either finish the term of the agreement or pay back the money as promised. I don't think the intent of our legal system is as a fallback for people to get out of things they agreed to (even though it happens all the time). Even if it isn't something to maintain your integrity at least you would leaving your only good IT reference on a positive note since your next employer will likely want to verify your experience.

Either way you have gained and are gaining some great experience while earning your certification at the same time. It was definitely a worthwhile decision and if you can find a company that will hire you at a starting rate substantially higher than you make now it definitely would be worth paying back the training money.

jamesp1983

How many total years do you have in IT? I've been in for 4 years. I have my Bachelors, MCSE, CCNA, and I'm working towards my CCNP and make 45k. Its tough out there man. I say stick it out and gain all the experience you possibly can. That way you won't have to pay that 7k back to them.

royal

ScottFern wrote:

Now, I do work with a Network Admin who works at the Naperville office on things that are over my head, but he isn't always available or a willing teacher.

I live in Naperville!

ScottFern

jimmypizzle83 wrote:

How many total years do you have in IT? I've been in for 4 years. I have my Bachelors, MCSE, CCNA, and I'm working towards my CCNP and make 45k. Its tough out there man. I say stick it out and gain all the experience you possibly can. That way you won't have to pay that 7k back to them.

I have been in the field for 18 months. I know I probably seem a little impatient or pushy, but I definitely prefer the fast track. I know my duties will be fast tracked considering we are a small IT department, but I have a feeling my salary is stuck in the Help Desk world.

eMeS

Schluep wrote:

eMeS wrote:

You might want to check into this. As far as I know Illinois is a right to work state. Everytime I've heard of an employer signing an employee to this kind of contract in a right to work state, the contract never holds water if the employer tries to sue for reimbursement of training expenses.

I knew one person who went through this exact situation with EDS, and didn't pay anything.

Basically, my understanding is that training expenses are seen as a business risk borne by the employer. Right to work means that either party can terminate employment at any time for any reason.

I would check around (talk to an attorney?) on this...I'm not certain that your options are as limited as you think they are.

MS

He signed the contract and I believe he should honor it on those grounds alone. Either finish the term of the agreement or pay back the money as promised. I don't think the intent of our legal system is as a fallback for people to get out of things they agreed to (even though it happens all the time). Even if it isn't something to maintain your integrity at least you would leaving your only good IT reference on a positive note since your next employer will likely want to verify your experience.

Either way you have gained and are gaining some great experience while earning your certification at the same time. It was definitely a worthwhile decision and if you can find a company that will hire you at a starting rate substantially higher than you make now it definitely would be worth paying back the training money.

How dare you imply that I am suggesting to use the legal system to get out of valid agreements. My point is the agreement may very well be invalid.

Integrity on his part isn't the issue here. If the contract initially offered is an illegal restriction of his rights as an employee, then his integrity is irrelevant. Just because someone agrees to a contract and has imperfect information about the legality of the contract at the time of the agreement, does not mean if the contract is found to be invalid that he is bound to abide by it.

Not sure that I would want a reference from people who do things like this...

ScottFern

eMeS wrote:

Schluep wrote:

eMeS wrote:

You might want to check into this. As far as I know Illinois is a right to work state. Everytime I've heard of an employer signing an employee to this kind of contract in a right to work state, the contract never holds water if the employer tries to sue for reimbursement of training expenses.

I knew one person who went through this exact situation with EDS, and didn't pay anything.

Basically, my understanding is that training expenses are seen as a business risk borne by the employer. Right to work means that either party can terminate employment at any time for any reason.

I would check around (talk to an attorney?) on this...I'm not certain that your options are as limited as you think they are.

MS

He signed the contract and I believe he should honor it on those grounds alone. Either finish the term of the agreement or pay back the money as promised. I don't think the intent of our legal system is as a fallback for people to get out of things they agreed to (even though it happens all the time). Even if it isn't something to maintain your integrity at least you would leaving your only good IT reference on a positive note since your next employer will likely want to verify your experience.

Either way you have gained and are gaining some great experience while earning your certification at the same time. It was definitely a worthwhile decision and if you can find a company that will hire you at a starting rate substantially higher than you make now it definitely would be worth paying back the training money.

How dare you imply that I am suggesting to use the legal system to get out of valid agreements. My point is the agreement may very well be invalid.

Integrity on his part isn't the issue here. If the contract initially offered is an illegal restriction of his rights as an employee, then his integrity is irrelevant. Just because someone agrees to a contract and has imperfect information about the legality of the contract at the time of the agreement, does not mean if the contract is found to be invalid that he is bound to abide by it.

Not sure that I would want a reference from people who do things like this...

My boss did make a comment when I pushed the issue earlier that all he could do if I quit was keep my last check and the value of my vacation days. He said they could try to sue me but he did not come across entirely confident they would win or be able to collect. So you just may very well have something there.

Schluep

eMeS wrote:

How dare you imply that I am suggesting to use the legal system to get out of valid agreements. My point is the agreement may very well be invalid.

Integrity on his part isn't the issue here. If the contract initially offered is an illegal restriction of his rights as an employee, then his integrity is irrelevant. Just because someone agrees to a contract and has imperfect information about the legality of the contract at the time of the agreement, does not mean if the contract is found to be invalid that he is bound to abide by it.

Not sure that I would want a reference from people who do things like this...

I didn't state nor imply you were suggesting such use of the legal system. I do not believe you would suggest using the legal system to get out of a valid agreement. I certainly did make a direct accusation beginning with the words "How dare you". In fact I found your post to the person inquiring about starting a business a few weeks ago to be very helpful and something I largely agreed with, so it is certainly nothing personal. I respectfully have a strong disagreement on the advice being given however and gave my opinion on the subject. ScottFern is willing to take whatever advice he deems best (and a LOT has been given from many people throughout this thread). I would be willing to bet if you polled everyone on these forums you would get a mixture of views on the subject, including sizeable groups agreeing with both of us.

It is however my belief nothing should be signed without being read fully and researched first (when necessary). Even if a court is unlikely to uphold the agreement he still chose to agree to it. If conditions needed to be included about subsequent pay raises or if legal counsel was needed it could have been sought before signing. In my opinion it is still wrong to go back on your word even if you were duped as long as the other party upheld their end of the bargain. Seven grand worth of training is no small expense. If I were on his situation I would uphold my end of the agreement and get out of there as quickly as possible.

As for the company, who is to say whether or not the knew such a contract may have been invalid when they wrote it up? I have seen many companies make honest mistake (and even more make dishonest ones but that is for another thread).

I signed a non-compete clause once and knew that legally I could break it but chose not to when an opportunity presented itself because I agreed not to. Personally I wish we could live in a society where word of mouth was good enough and I hate saying "Can you please put that in writing" and "Yes, I'll send you an email/fax/letter regarding our discussion" all day long (which is something I do currently on a daily basis). I know this will never happen, but that doesn't change my views on keeping your word and holding to any agreement you make (even if not signed).

jbaello

[/quote]

My boss did make a comment when I pushed the issue earlier that all he could do if I quit was keep my last check and the value of my vacation days. He said they could try to sue me but he did not come across entirely confident they would win or be able to collect. So you just may very well have something there.[/quote]

Let them fire you instead, be tardy and argue with your peers :P

jbaello

jbaello wrote:

My boss did make a comment when I pushed the issue earlier that all he could do if I quit was keep my last check and the value of my vacation days. He said they could try to sue me but he did not come across entirely confident they would win or be able to collect. So you just may very well have something there.[/quote]

Let them fire you instead, be tardy and argue with your peers :P[/quote]

+1 lol

sprkymrk

eMeS wrote:

How dare you imply that I am suggesting to use the legal system to get out of valid agreements. My point is the agreement may very well be invalid.

Oh please.

eMeS wrote:

Integrity on his part isn't the issue here.

It may not be THE issue, but integrity and keeping your word are WAY more important than whether or not the legal system backs the agreement or not. Unless he was duped or coerced or forced into signing the agreement then it ought to be honored, even if you could win in court. He knew that he was going to gain experience and training in return for 2 years of service - end of story, no abuse here. The company knew they would get a good deal because they were going to get a guy who was below the curve to start, but would be up to speed soon and then the payoff for the company would come in the second year, not the first.

eMeS wrote:

If the contract initially offered is an illegal restriction of his rights as an employee, then his integrity is irrelevant.

That's just your opinion. I disagree. Integrity is always relevant. Now, you can still maintain your integrity and get out of a contract if the contract was forced on you or misrepresented. Every situation is different, but I don't see any huge injustice done here. Nobody went into this blind.

eMeS wrote:

Not sure that I would want a reference from people who do things like this...

I don't see this company as "bad". They took a chance on him. What if he had destroyed their file server? Or worse? He got his payoff in the way of experience and training, now it's the company's turn to get a little in return.

I still hope he gets a raise though. It would be a good way for this company to keep him past the 2 years he agreed to. A little show of appreciation can go a long way towards making a loyal employee.

jbaello

Just be thankful for the experience, in time all of this will pay off, you will be a pimp making 6 figures

HeroPsycho

Let's clear this up:

There's nothing dishonest or lacking integrity if he leaves before two years and pays back the money he agreed he would for the training.

If someone offered him a job for $50K/yr. tomorrow, he'd be foolish not to take it. Take the job, and pay the money back. If they said you have to pay it back within a year, pay it back 364 days later.

It's nothing personal; it's business.

sprkymrk

HeroPsycho wrote:

Let's clear this up:

There's nothing dishonest or lacking integrity if he leaves before two years and pays back the money he agreed he would for the training.

If someone offered him a job for $50K/yr. tomorrow, he'd be foolish not to take it. Take the job, and pay the money back. If they said you have to pay it back within a year, pay it back 364 days later.

It's nothing personal; it's business.

That part was always clear - leave and pay or stay.

blargoe

ScottFern wrote:

I have been in the field for 18 months. I know I probably seem a little impatient or pushy, but I definitely prefer the fast track. I know my duties will be fast tracked considering we are a small IT department, but I have a feeling my salary is stuck in the Help Desk world.

It won't be stuck there forever. You seem to have a good head on your shoulders and you have the kind of experience that will send you horizontal, not lateral, when and if you end up looking for something else.

I preach to everyone that will listen that any experience when first starting out is good experience, but breadth of experience is even better if you are looking to move up quickly in the admin world. In my case, I was hired at a consulting company with no real world experience doing entry sysadmin and net engineer level work at a whopping $10/hr, then bumped to $14/hr after they realized I was going to work out for them. In two years I installed and supported dozens of Linux and Windows servers for diverse customers, managed their routers, and handled desktop support. The broad exposure I gained in those two years have paid huge dividends for me, putting me ahead of the pack (of those just out of school with the typical helpdesk/call center/desktop experience). I attribute my troubleshooting skills to the exposure I had being the "jack of all, master of none" in that environment.

I did move on, when the time was right, when it became apparent that the money wasn't ever going to match my increasing level of skill and experience.

The way I see it, whenever the time is right for you (and maybe it isn't yet - sounds like there is some great resume building stuff coming up within your company), you will land a similar job that will compensate you appropriately for your 2 or so years of experience as a sysadmin. After a total of 5 or so years in a sysadmin role, you should begin to realize your real potential - after which the next step up is probably THE job you are aiming for, a sr. sysadmin type of job where you own the world.

jbaello

Put it this way man, if after 3 years your still making the same and actually doing a sysadmin job, I would start going postal on everyone, and probably move to Geek Squad cause they might be making more G's :P

jbaello

And again follow Royal's experience this is what I exactly do as well...

Daniel333

Wow, this thread is busy. I guess we can all related.

One more thing I wanted to mention. If you boss has mentioned legal obligations at this point, I would say you are beyond a casual conversation and a meeting to fix the issue. I don;t know the exact nature of conversation but I would say you're done there no matter what they pay you.

Stick it out, Moonlight if you have to pay the bills and get out when you can.

good luck!

vegetaholic

Author : you should leave the job ,taking experience certificate.

Daniel said ingenuously,I agree with you.

ScottFern

Just to update everyone......not that this thread is hugely important or anything, but I have updated my resume to reflect my newly acquired certifications on all the major job boards and have sent my resume out to several places just to test the waters.

I have seem very limited interest but nothing incredible enough to make me jump ship. Another thing, my boss is so disorganized I have yet to sign the legal agreement since I asked him to change the repayment period to 90 days. Wonder how long I can go without signing?

AlexMR

OP,

You are underpaid. There is no doubt about that. I think your best bet is trying to get a job WHILE you are still at yours and keep studying and learning. Piling some certs dont hurt obviously. If you get a job offer that seems promising and the pay is, say, 45K/year, then you should be better quitting and paying your 7K debt.

As somebody pointed out I see that big salary jumps generally come from interested employers, not generally the ones you work for. Some company sees your resume the your interests and how you've been growing and he gives you the money. That is how it works for most professionals in any field. POst your resume wherever employers can find it. Send it to big corporaions in Chicago and you should be able to get a 50+K/year job with relative ease.

Remember that a growing professional cant think exclusively about the money being made but also about the growth opportunities. Sometimes its better to take a worse paying job only because of where it can take you professionally. Right now I am about to decide in a similar situation. It sucks for sure, but you cant think with your stomach all the time .

Turgon

ScottFern wrote:

Alright, I have been doing IT since September 2006 for a smaller credit card incentives company. I was hired on as "Systems Support" at their remote travel agency at 27k. Now, I admit I knew basically nothing coming into this job and it was a definite fluke I was basically given an entire LAN to administer. Yes, I was on my own from day one administering this site's entire LAN by myself. I have basically been in charge or anything and everything that plugs into the wall. I also manage 10 servers locally.

Here I am over a year and a half later with a MCSE:Security paid for by my company. I still have lots to learn but I am heaps and bounds more comfortable troubleshooting problems. At my first review I was given a 3k raise and approval of training to the tune of 7k. Now, I sit here at 30k/year and this great certification, but little satisfaction in my current salary. Yes, I appreciate the opportunity given to me by my employer, and no I cannot quit because I signed a 2 year contract saying I would not quit for 2 years and if I do I owe 7k within 12 months of quitting and 3.5k in 13-24 months of quitting.

My review isn't until September, but this salary is killing me and my gf is quitting her job soon, so I will be the sole rent payer come June.

In addition, by boss brought up the fact during my last review that the 7k training factored into my total compensation, and now he briefly mentioned that it may have an impact on my review this year which I think is totally unfair considering it played its role last year and should have no effect this coming review.

I have an idea of what I would like to make and I believe I am worth somewhere in the 36k-37k range come September. No?

I can't advise you on rates over there, but I can tell you that your experience is very similar to mine in my first job from 1997 to 1999. If you really can't leave sooner hang on, push for more money and then leave when you are clear to go. You will find opportunities to earn significantly more money elsewhere now you have the experience and exams under your belt. Thats what I did. I left the company and became a network manager and running a small support team at headquarters of my new company as opposed to being sole provider at the last shop. I found I had two offers to choose from and both agreed to increase their initial offer of salary.

Good luck!

darkuser

keep taking what they give you
keep earning more certs with that training then they'll eventually have to pay you.
or someone else will !!!

thats what i did
ive earned all my certs since 2000

ive gone from 25k in 1996 to 6 figures ....

Turgon

darkuser wrote:

keep taking what they give you
keep earning more certs with that training then they'll eventually have to pay you.
or someone else will !!!

thats what i did
ive earned all my certs since 2000

ive gone from 25k in 1996 to 6 figures ....

Me too. And if they don't pay for your training, do it yourself

ScottFern

I really want to ask for a raise now, but that is awkward isn't it? I guess I have to wait until my review in September?

bighusker

Scott, it sounds like you are working for an awful company. I've never heard of a company asking people to sign a 2 year contract with a buyout clause for such a low salary, even companies that pay for training. That is downright despicable, and you should have refused to sign it. For Chicago, that salary is far too low if your job description is accurate. I was making more than that in Omaha doing nothing more than simple help desk work. I would think that most Chicago-area jobs similar to yours would start closer to $45,000/year. You are being taken advantage of.

Maybe you can get lucky and find another company that is willing to buy out your contract. (If you are the right candidate, many companies will not mind). If nothing else, maybe you can get another job offer and use it to renegotiate your salary with your current employer. Either way, you need to get away from this job because they are not doing you any favors.

ScottFern

UPDATE:


I received a call on Monday from a headhunter who set me up with a company in Oak Brook, IL who needs a PC Support Specialist position filled asap. I interviewed on Wednesday and on Friday I had an offer for 45k with a 7k sign on bonus to pay for my MCSE training.

I counter offered 48k with a 4k sign on bonus and they even sweetened the pot by offering a guaranteed 10% bonus my first year.

I am accepting Monday morning! I am really in shock and I feel for my old company just a little as we did have good times. Looks like I will be moving to the surrounding Oak Brook area!