novell.....why?

nyma96

I was just looking at the cert and seems like good percentage of people have this cert...like cne and cna...

my questions is this...

are novell netware still used alot in the industry?
I have seen it on some of workstations in my school but..seems kinda old...but again its community college so they might still be using an ancient version...

I just dont understand why people would use this over any other NOS...
any special features, stability, or etc..that attracts people to it?

timharpur

I can't answer your question, as I was wondering the same thing myself.

Isn't the choice really between Windows and Linux now?

nyma96

it be kinda nice to see why companies and etc. use different OS's...

like why choose Solaris over others?

I mean like linux over window is probably because of money issue...
(and many other things) however thats being dabated by microsoft saying it actually costs more...(not trying to start a flame war here...)

Unix I heard they use it alot in Hospitals because of stability...and so on...

Freebsd for ISP...

it would be nice to see like a list of operating systems and their pro's and con's....

wildfire

Although Novell is on the decline, it is still in wide use,mainly on legacy systems, just the same as many large companies use ibm mainframes. The company I work for still use novell netware for certain area etc. As for solaris this is also in widespread use, I myself use a Sun system running Solaris for SNMP managerment of all active networking components in our network.

Nyma the list could go on forever! lol

often its down to cost, purpose and support. Why install the latest windows 2003 .net backbone to run a legacy finance network?

ajs1976

A lot of places still use novell. In the smaller shops I work with, it is mainly being phased out. It can still be found in a lot of enterprise networks.

LadyNred

Novell is actually making a big comeback. A lot of companies are switching back to Novell. NetWare is NOT a legacy system. It is much more stable and secure than a Microsoft network.

Novell's biggest problem is that they dropped the ball big time in advertising. Everyone has heard of Microsoft but only the real techies know what NetWare is unless its in your office.

Novell has been using directory services for many years now (from NetWare 4.x) and Microsoft has only just implemented it with Windows 2000. If you were to compare the components of Novell's directory services and Microsoft's directory services to the X.500 directory services standards you would discover that Novell meets a very large percentage while Microsoft meets the bare minimum to call itself directory services.

Starting with NetWare 5.x the IPX protocol is no longer required and your entire network can be using TCP/IP. Novell is sincere with its "OneNet" project designed to make its Directory Services platform independent. Did you know for example that you can put Novell's directory services on a Windows server to make it more secure?

Linux is also a choice. You may or may not know that Novell recently purchased SUSE Linux and has developed Novell Linux Services. What a combination! You now have the option of using Linux on the desktop and on your servers which equals cost savings but you get Novell's directory services to tighten up the security and improve accessibility to network services for your users. In fact, with the release of NetWare 7 which I believe is due before year end, you will have a choice of using the traditional NetWare kernel or a Linux kernel.

Support for Linux was a big issue for companies who looked into the possibilities of using Linux in their environments a few years ago but now with Novell, IBM and HP very strong supporters it no longer will be.

I have attended Novell/Linux conferences and workshops and am amazed with the popularity of this new solution. I believe that Linux is the way of the future and that Novell is going to start giving Microsoft a run for its money expecially when they have IBM and HP on their side.

LadyNred

BTW, here is just one link to Novell success stories to give you an idea of the types of companies using NetWare... There are many more if you go to Novell's site and do a search using the keywords success story.

http://www.novell.com/products/netware/success.html

Companies include courts, hospitals, schools, airlines, Wells Fargo, law firms, real estate, police departments, auto services, banks, manufacturers, even McDonalds...

matchey

Ladynred, I have used NT, w2k & w2003k but i find Netware to be a far superior product, easy to use, runs for years without a reboot, no security issues etc, etc We run 5.1 but would like to upgrade to 6.5 if i can get the money.

As you say it is a shame about their previous marketing is was a disgrace.
but I think they are now fighting back, i can see a change of attitude in their account managers


We have just bought in Zenworks and it to looks very good?
What do you think of it?

linuxguy

I agree with the previous staements about netwares superiority. The only advantage M$ had was the TCP\IP vs IPX issue, which as correctly stated above has been a none issue. And I was greatly pleased with the purchase of SuSE. I am glad there is a big player backing Linux besides Red HAt and the open source community. If you wonder where I stand check the name .. but I do not discreminate. I work more with M$ and it typically serves its purpose. I will say that I no longer have a M$ box at the house. I plan on getting around to the CNA, not having it actually cost me a pretty nice job once. They had two novell servers and everythoingelse was M$... but the CNA was a 'requirement'... that was just last year. It has a large installation base and with the SuSE buy out I plan to see a surge in their product.

IMHO

RussS

The only places we are phasing out Netware are also places that we are phasing out Linux ... why? Because the companies that supply the applications to our clients no longer support anything but Windows. Sad but true and it is a total pain in the posterior.
When I first started where I am I asked the senior engineer "Why Novell?" - a quick explaination of Novell print queues and I was starting to become a convert. A little later after a call from a client who had a staff member delete a few random files before she left working there - senior talked me through the cool recovery features and I became totally hooked - all good stuff

garv221

timharpur wrote:

I can't answer your question, as I was wondering the same thing myself.

Isn't the choice really between Windows and Linux now?

Not for client use. Alot of Mail & Web Servers run Linux. 99% of Linux's guys can tell you how long there machine has been up and running. They don't crash very often.
I can remember doing NWCLIENT through dos and brining down Win98 from a Novell server all through CMD prompt. ha, I love Novell. Sadly is is being phased out to a very vulnerable OS. A friend of mine is the IT Director for the State Senate & he said they are throwing away Novell and bringing in MS. Hes upset but funding & support is stopping. Now he has to buy MS plus pay for more security b/c MS gets hit with it all.
Loose, Loose situation.

skully93

The job I start here in just an hour uses Novell and Linux, with a small Windows domain on the side.

The way it was explained to me, Netware is just more reliable. The features are similar, and Novell isn't as picky about compatibility.


Also, as was said before, the 'active directory' is a Novell idea (different name, same thing) that was basically taken from them and implemented into Win2k. I love active directory and see why, but Novell thought of it first.

keatron

Yeah sure guys I was almost a convert myself. I just rolled out a 6000 client 2000 to XP service pack 2 upgrade via group policy, this took me all of 2 hours tops. Tell me how to do that via Netware in a short time frame like that. And please, if somebody say's Zenworks I'll scream.

And by the way, do you people really think Novell is THAT secure? Penetration testing is one of the services we render at my company and because of the false sense of security that most admins have about Netware, these are some of the most poorly secured networks out there.

Let's not even talk about clustering and load balancing!!!! There's no comparison

Can Novell's native VPN solutions compare with 2000 or 2003 servers? I think not, (I've implemented both)

How good is Fibre Channel support with Novell products? errr yeah, that's what I thought.

Firewire?

What about file level disk encryptiong (and going out and buying a 3rd party software package is not a valid answer)

Internet printing? (This saves tons in the enterprise environment)

Okay, guys, I'm not a Novell hater or a Microsoft mouth piece, just figured I'd point out some positives in the other direction.

active directory was a novell idea

so what, the automobile probably was not Henry Ford's idea. And actually "active/interactive directory" was actually first proposed by IBM just never developed.

skully93

Good points.

I think it's all dependent on what you want to use it for. Netware seems to require less simple maintenance and runs a pretty long time between reboots without losing anything, whereas Windows will just about implode after a while.

However, even my most excellent Novell admins have had a hard time sometimes with rollouts and upgrades. There are lots of little things I'm not used to in Novell that I was in Windows that I'll just have to work with more to really comment on.

Security on Novell is I think a bit simpler to set up, though nothing is 100% secure, and anyone with enough/knowledge can get in eventually.

Also, with Novells SP2 for Netware, it's still a 50/50 shot just like XP. A lot will work, but its always that one stupid little app that horks when you feel confident it'll only take a min...

12thlevelwarrior

It is so simple to bring up MS products, noone really digs in and learns all the details. I have just been a sys admin for a year (helptech for four years) and am just now starting on the cert track. I am amazed at the level of detail that active directory can go into. My company is utilizing about 10% of it's potential. I just learned how to build a customized template that changes one small setting in each computer's registry. As far as stability is concerned, 2003 has been rock solid, can't say the same for server 2000.

Yeah, Netware advertising sucks, but you can't ignore MS documentation job. You can find a white paper on MS for anything.

evanderburg

I hate it how people try to downsize my MCSE. They say, "Yippee, you know Windows" as if everyone knows it. I even read a certification article where the writer said that there was no need for 7 tests because there was just not that much to Windows. I completely disagree. Windows is much more complex than people believe and a properly educated administrator can change the way a company does business. I certainly value my MCSE.

As for Novell, since this is a Novell thread, I was not very impressed with their offerings a few years ago but their move to Linux isn't that bad. I just have a hard time moving back to them because there are many Linux offerings already. Can someone give me some basics on how Novell has differentiated themselves from the Linux pack? I know they always had some nice management utilities. I would hope those carry over. I hear good things about eDirectory too. Also, is management and maintenence a task better suited for a Linux guy or does it still feel like Novell?

Linesiders

evanderburg wrote:

As for Novell, since this is a Novell thread, I was not very impressed with their offerings a few years ago but their move to Linux isn't that bad. I just have a hard time moving back to them because there are many Linux offerings already. Can someone give me some basics on how Novell has differentiated themselves from the Linux pack? I know they always had some nice management utilities. I would hope those carry over. I hear good things about eDirectory too. Also, is management and maintenence a task better suited for a Linux guy or does it still feel like Novell?

Imagine a well thought out, fast Active Directory system with solid tools that you could manage your Windows boxes and your Linux boxes - together - That is Novell Directory Services. I appreciate how MS AD is now getting good when compared to the Netware stuff I was doing in 97 with 4.11 . That it is 9 years later, well.....

sart

Out of my employers 400+ medium sized business customers, zero use novell.

EricO

Out of my employers 400+ medium sized business customers, zero use novell.

My network, at ~20,000 users, uses AD + Novell/Zenworks.

Key points:

Novell manages Users/Files very well.

Zenworks is great for policies, not so hot for Application Installs.

I have patched my novell servers for critical security issues once in the last 18 months.

I patch my windows servers monthly.

I can only speak for the other features we use third hand:

AD integrates very well will other authentication systems (Radius, etc.)

AD seems just as robust and reliable as Novell....

Danman32

Novell is indeed very secure. A well known hacker (the good kind) reported that MS puts too much junk on the wire, where Novell doesn't, especially when Netware is configured for IP only. Netware with native IP does a lot less broadcasting, with much fewer required ports than MS requires. You can connect 2 Netware servers together over the internet, and you certainly can connect a client to the netware over the internet. Try doing that with MS without VPN. Same with Groupwise versus Exchange. Without RPC over HTTP (a pain in the butt to get it to work properly), you need your firewall pretty much wide open to connect OL to Exchange. Groupwise? One port.

I can easily fix a netware server that won't boot, and can even attempt to get a netware server back online if someone had not backed up the C: drive that Netware boots off of. If MS doesn't boot because of a stupid hung driver, and its difficult to troubleshoot since MS provides no means of breaking it down. Netware had started breaking down the boot process in stages since NW 5.0.

Unfortunately, too many applications are geared only for MS. That's fine for client only applications since it isn't running on the server, but if you have a client/server application, you may be out of luck. Standardization of interfaces, such as using web services to host a server app may help Novell get back in the race, since platform doesn't matter as much. I find troubleshooting a broken server app running in Tomcat to be pain though. You practically need to be a program developer to figure out what went wrong.

I was thinking of letting my CNE slide since calls for it are dwindling, but perhaps I might maintain it even if I probably won't be using it for a while. I am about to get my MCSE cert which I should have gotten a long time ago since I have done substantial support for it as well.

As for marketing and market share, let me put it to you this way. I currently work for a major distributor. We used to have 2-5 people working as Novell systems engineers (SE's). Recently, for a few months Novell dropped funding for their remaining SE, though they reinstated a part time SE mainly for their SUSE platform. When I first started working here 8 years ago, Novell would bend over backwards to support us support them. Now, we get almost nothing. Granted, MS doesn't give us a whole lot either.

As for a choice between Netware and SUSE, that started with Open Enterprise where you get Netware 6.5 and SUSE, you choose which to install. With netware, you license the client for a connection (like MS), for SUSE you license the support. However, with Netware you get free patches, with Suse you pay by the client for a subscription to patches.

With any OS, there's pro's and con's for all. It's just a matter for which mix of pro's and con's you desire.

gravyjoe

My brother's job uses it and the intership site I was at 6 months ago does also. It is out there.

plettner

I work at a large Area Health Service with about 10 hospitals and some community health centres. We use Netware 5.1 as the primary NOS around the Area. However, word is the Netware will be replaced with Windows.


All up there are about 10000 users.

rcoop

skully93 wrote:

Also, as was said before, the 'active directory' is a Novell idea (different name, same thing) that was basically taken from them and implemented into Win2k. I love active directory and see why, but Novell thought of it first.

The directory approach to networking was out waaay before Novell got ahold of it in NW 4. I used NW 2.11 through NW 4, (was a CNA on 3.12 +), but in the early days you should have seen the presentations given by Banyan (VINES) on their Directory Services. NW was just too easy to deploy and it never went down... directory services... maybe in the military (where I hear some of these still exist!?! Yikes). Novell didn't think of directory services, and I think it's funny that a very similar conversation was happening back in 1993/1994 but instead of NDS vs AD it was VINES vs NDS... or closer to "Why VINES?".

Banyan, R.I.P. but at least don't let Novell claim they invented directory services

Take Care,
Rcoop

rcoop

I still see NW, NDS, Groupwise, and ZenWorks at state government sites all the time, but never in "new" installations. I don't even think I've seen it bid or quoted against MS technology... it's normally a bunch of HW bids with Win2000 / Win2003 on them from HP, IBM, and DELL... I see way more Solaris (even HP-UX) more than I've seen NetWare in new deployments.

I'm happy to see Novell try to make a difference in the Linux marketplace, and they have a good company in SuSE, but Novell marketing is already sending mixed signals with the enterprise stuff... is it Novell SuSE Linux... Novell Enterprise Linux... etc... stick with a name, and sell it... sheesh!

I did see at a small company I was consulting for, IPX (NWLink to all you MS heads) running on each of the clients... and I asked why... and it seems they actually had two NW 3.2 (? Y2K compliant, they said) file and print servers running on old 486 DX2-66's with 128MB RAM each... they had been installed in the early 90's, and no one could remember them ever being down (or recall the last time they were rebooted, although they did have two 9GB hard drives in them, so at some point someone upgraded them). It was almost sad removing them because they were still running well and doing thier job ... I did think it was funny that they had continued to upgrade their Windows infrastructure during the whole time WinNT 3.5 -> 3.51 -> 4.0 (SPs galore) -> Win2K -> and by the end of this year to Win2003, but the Novell servers just sit there and put-put along... but after the upgrade the users are happy with Internet Printing though

Take Care,
Rcoop

borumas

We just went through a major upgrade this summer, to Netware 6.5, we have over 28,000 computers and over 4,000 networked printers in our district. I don't work much with our Novell side anymore (deal mostly with Cisco switches) but I'm very impressed with the Zenworks, Groupwise, and Iprint features we have implimented, and the ability to have a web based map of a site with printer locations shown where a user can click on the printer they want and have it installed automatically is really cool. Unforetunately it appears the Zenworks workstation import has a bug that stops the service randomly so we have been having to restart it every once in awhile to import the rest of the pc's (we've pulled in over 20,000 pc's so far) but from what I hear Novell is working on a fix for that. Desktop managment through Zenworks is really going to help our IT department allot and it appears Novell will be supported for at least another 10 years from what I've heard the consultants say. Stability and security with Novell is something Microsoft hasn't been able to touch from what I've seen, that's why people still stay with Novell and are coming back to it.

Can someone give me some basics on how Novell has differentiated themselves from the Linux pack? I know they always had some nice management utilities. I would hope those carry over. I hear good things about eDirectory too. Also, is management and maintenence a task better suited for a Linux guy or does it still feel like Novell?

For managment utilities Console1 is still used and works well, and now they have iManager which is web based- it is pretty good from what I've seen but I like Console1 better myself. Novell has Groupwise, a very nice mail package similar in look and feel to Outlook but much better in my opinion and Zenworks which provides allot of features that my site is using mostly for desktop managment and application installs/system imaging. Our techs imaged over 20,000 computers this summer with Zenworks and it worked pretty well after we made some tweaks to the network.

bighornsheep

I remember 5 or 6 years ago, when Windows 98 was still the core client operating system. My high school had this really good Computer Science Teacher that was also the system admin. He would probably be one of the few people that I would attribute my current and future successes to.

Anyway, I *think* it was Novell 4, but it might have been 3.x, he ran that as the network service with each machine an imaging software, which I just did a search, seems to still be in existant today.

Deep Freeze, I think of the 4 years I was there, there was only one incident of network failure, and no network down time. It wasnt a small school either, 2000 students, 30 computers in a lab, 5 labs. Plus teacher's workstations.

I think it's pretty safe to say that Novell is still a major player in the game, Microsoft has just gotten ahead. Probably much ahead....

keatron

borumas wrote:

but I'm very impressed with the Zenworks, Groupwise, and Iprint features we have implimented, and the ability to have a web based map of a site with printer locations shown where a user can click on the printer they want and have it installed automatically is really cool.

And just for the sake of security, who can and cannot view this map?

Danman32

The map is a file on the web server, so if the map needs restrictions, you can do it. But certainly you can restrict the printer itself.

I was disappointed when Novell went to C1. It is written in Java and is doggon slow compared to NWAdmin. However, NWAdmin had snapin limitations. There are a few things that you have to do in NWAdmin or at least is much easier than in C1, but mostly you now use C1.

Some features that they ported over to IManager that can be done in C1 is a bit hokey, mainly because of the limitations of the web interface. At least it was this way when I last worked with IManager, which admittedly was a while ago. Perhaps they made it better using Java.

petedude

bighornsheep wrote:

I think it's pretty safe to say that Novell is still a major player in the game, Microsoft has just gotten ahead. Probably much ahead....

As much as I used to be a Novell diehard, I'd have to say MS got a little ahead for a while. If you look at the NetWare 6.5 features and exam contents, it looks like Novell was trying to make NetWare 6.5 more competitive with Windows 2003 Small Business Server. Featurewise, they succeeded, I think, but the market didn't go their way.

And why Novell NetWare in general? Many government and educational shops in the US use it because of better pricing, stability and security-- especially security. Even though Novell's trying hard to shed itself of the proprietary legacy, I think NetWare's going to have some strong niche markets almost right up to its retirement date in 2015. In fact, I'd be surprised if some of their big US customers didn't press them for a NetWare 7 (possible but not highly likely-- Novell would also probably have to offshore development of nearly the entire product from code to docs to make any money on it).

emmajoyce

Ditto on having to reboot windows due to memory leakage. Console1 is easy to work with.

Kasor

Novell is a great NOS... If you look at their edirectory and AD... a lot of function you see at AD are from Novell, specially those concept of the one login...

Also, Novell was very popular back then, but it went down very quick after Bill clean up the house. Now, every company is a "MS house"