If your IT degree doesn't work, sue that college!

veritas_libertas

Somehow I am not surprised by this. This generation is amazingly lazy and selfish. What business would even consider hiring you when you go sue crazy.



College Grad Can't Find Job, Wants $$$ Back | NBC New York

jamesleecoleman

There are alot of people in this generation who aren't lazy and selfish.

I honestly don't think that she should get her money back just because she's been job searching for a few months and can't get a job. Who is she to tell people that the school hasn't tried hard to help her?? The career-advice program is there to assist the students, not to go out and do all the work for the students to find a job. She went to school for what she wanted and now she needs to pay for it. I think that she needs to suck it up and take responisbility for herself.

veritas_libertas

I wish I could agree with you about people, but I had a fellow IT student in my AAS program who literally wanted me to join him in trying to make the school give us our money back because we haven't been able to find jobs in Michigan. Now anyone reading this thread knows that IT students in Michigan are not exactly the only ones in Michigan suffering

veritas_libertas

I should clarify that I am thinking of college age students that I believe think jobs will be handed to them on a silver platter. I don't think they all do, I can think of two that are excellent individuals. One of my friends is becoming an excellent programmer http://odevelop.org. But for the most part I find allot of the college students amazingly lazy. I guess it's like looking for precious stones.

jamesleecoleman

I haven't noticed any IT college students being lazy at GRCC. What city are you in veritas_libertas?

Talic

I think she's just frustrated that the job market is as poor as it is right now. Add that onto just barely making it on her mother's part time salary would put a lot of strain on anyone. I think it's a bad idea to sue also, it'll just end up costing more money on top of her student loan to pay for the lawsuit if she doesn't win.

I've had some first hand experience with colleges and getting jobs. I applied for a internship at my school for 3 semesters and ended up with nothing for all the effort I invested in it. I bothered the instructors and drove to a different campus half way across the city for a meeting to talk about the internship. In the end I found out that only one company was accepting interns and it was for a networking company that required you to have a two semesters of Net Academy to apply for. All while she lectured to us at the meeting that they were going to get a bunch of companies to bring us on as interns through a new program where paying interns would be donations to the college rather then hiring someone as a employer. So much for hoping to get a part time internship and using the rest of the time to study <signs>.

So I don't see her as a whiny kid because I know where shes coming from and it's just because of the crap economy.

JavonR

sounds like someone doesn't want to start at the bottom

nel

I am a part of that generation you are refering too and in no way would i classify myself as "lazy and selfish". I think thats a very poor viewpoint. Although i have come across many who do fit in this category but not everyone.

I dont think she will get her money back but suing for crazy things seems to be very popular in the US from what i have gathered. Its becoming the same in the UK too.

One thing i would say is i think this raises questions over how much universities should be charging for their degress. From my view, $70K is an obsurd amount of money for one. I understand its common in the US to pay these amounts and thankfully its not like that yet in the UK. BUT if the government gets their way, there will be big and unrealistic hikes in uni fee's pretty soon.

Do i think a uni degree is a good or helpful attribute? Yes, definately. Do i think it would be worth $70K (roughly £40k) then probably not. I have a hard enough time trying to get my foot on the property ladder nevermind spending obsurd amounts of money like this. That £40k could pay nearly 30% of a mortgage for a good property for me.

mikedisd2

"...Trina is upset that all her high hopes haven't panned out."

Join the club!

NetworkingStudent

I wanted to sue a school I once attended, but it was not over employment issues. I was going to Rasmussen College and I was enrolled into the IT program at the time. The college told me that I could take classes any time of the day or night. Also, they had a wonderful selection of on line courses. The flexible schedule really pushed me to select them over other schools. Well my first year was going good and I was progressing through the program, going part time, and taking 8 credits per semester. I was making friends and I enjoyed a majority of my teachers. Everything seemed great until I got to my 2nd year, and I was registering for fall classes. I still remember that day to a “T” , the school wanted me to take 3 night classes, and they pretty much said I had to take them. Well I told them from day one I work 12 hour shifts, and that I can’t take 3 classes per semester. Also, I told them I really didn’t want to take night classes, but I would if I had to, so that I could finish my program. However, I did tell them that I could have taken one or possibly two if I could switch with someone from work. Well I switched with someone from work to get one of the nights off, but I still needed two more nights off to attend the classes that the school wanted me to attend. I went to the DEAN, Associate Dean, and the program Director and I had no luck, the school had made up their mind that I could only take those specific classes at those certain times. I remember the conversation with the dean, and she told me that if I can’t attend those classes that I would have to chose another program. She offered to talk to my work, and, I told her that they wouldn’t understand or care. I then said ”what if I went to another school?”, she said no schools offer IT classes during the day, which I found out later on was a lie. Now I go to MSB and I like the education I’ am receiving.
Would have I sued that school? “NO”…..However, a lot people thought I should have.
As far as IT students being ignorant I had one fellow student, who I found hilarious….
• He didn’t have an Internet connection, because he said “ I have an illegal copy of pro tools, and I don’t want the fBI to find out I have it. I thought that was weird. He’s the first IT student that I met that didn’t have an internet connection.
• He didn’t understand why the instructor got in trouble for giving out his product key for windows 2000, infact, he didn’t even know what a product key was or what it was used for… I had to explain this to him…
• The instructor gave copies of windows 7 out and he started installing it on the computer at school, I kinda found that funny.. Ok someone stopped him..still funny.
• The weird thing was this guy could recite just about any information from the book, but it just felt like he was missing something.

ipconfig.all

NetworkingStudent What an interesting story that was

tiersten

Silly lawsuit. Whilst the careers service will do in theory a best effort attempt at finding you leads or an actual job, at the end of the day it is up to you to get it. After university you no longer have somebody hand holding you and you have to deal with real life.

I've heard of people filing lawsuits because they got caught cheating in exams and got automatically failed in that particular course. The lawsuit trying to get that decision reversed and struck from their record. They even freely admit that they were cheating as well which just makes you wonder about their train of thought.

NightShade03

That is the most insane thing I have heard. Where I went to school the university did NOTHING to help its students. They basically just kept telling everyone that a BS degree will get you into any job you want doing anything. They didn't encourage certs, internships, nothing. With no exp and just a BS I found a job on my own in less then 2 months (not saying its the best but its a job). I agree the article that her lawsuit has no merit.

ipconfig.all

We live in a cold and a very strange world.

She has every right to sue them, since they gave her FAKE promises. Good on her I hope she wins.

In I.T is all about who you know than what you know. Sad but true, I mean it don't matter if you have a degree, if you do not have the correct contacts you will have a hard time getting in. If you have just bunch of certs and if you have good contacts in the I.T game then there is a high chance that you could be employed.

Luck plays a major part in this world, more than skills.

Plantwiz

ipconfig.all wrote: »

We live in a cold and a very strange world.

She has every right to sue them, since they gave her FAKE promises. Good on her I hope she wins.

In I.T is all about who you know than what you know. Sad but true, I mean it don't matter if you have a degree, if you do not have the correct contacts you will have a hard time getting in. If you have just bunch of certs and if you have good contacts in the I.T game then there is a high chance that you could be employed.

Luck plays a major part in this world, more than skills.

I would add it has more to do with Personality then luck, but certainly being in the right place at the right time and having the right employer interested in you...does help. But it really comes down to one's personality.

But encouraging her to take on this lawsuit and even hoping she wins is like the hot coffee lawsuit. There are too many frivolous lawsuits plugging up the legal system and too many attorney's taking on these cases so delaying swift justice for legitimate court cases.

YMMV

blargoe

I agree with the laziness generalization, but I also secretly wish someone would go after these "schools" that misrepresent the reality of entry level IT, at least get them to change their advertising.

4 MONTHS AND YOU COULD BE MAKING 50, 60, 70 THOUSAND OR MORE WITH A NEW IT CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111oneone

hypnotoad

blargoe wrote: »

I agree with the laziness generalization, but I also secretly wish someone would go after these "schools" that misrepresent the reality of entry level IT, at least get them to change their advertising.

4 MONTHS AND YOU COULD BE MAKING 50, 60, 70 THOUSAND OR MORE WITH A NEW IT CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111oneone

Blargoe, you hit it on the head. I work in higher-ed. Let me tell you, this whole thing is a very profitable bubble. We deal daily in the business of bait-and-switch and false advertising. I agree with the laziness generalization as well, but it's also true that schools should stop making the statements they do.

Nearly every university I've worked with advertises a 99.X% placement rate in either industry or grad school within 6 months of graduation. It's all baloney.

Plantwiz

hypnotoad wrote: »

Blargoe, you hit it on the head. I work in higher-ed. Let me tell you, this whole thing is a very profitable bubble. We deal daily in the business of bait-and-switch and false advertising. I agree with the laziness generalization as well, but it's also true that schools should stop making the statements they do.

Nearly every university I've worked with advertises a 99.X% placement rate in either industry or grad school within 6 months of graduation. It's all baloney.

I think you both are correct, but then again...attending an IT school in lieu of attending an accredited university, SHOULD send up red flags that there must be a catch.

Life is full of times where we pay ''stupid' tax''. These IT schools that advertise high-level jobs in a few mere months of part-time schooling...seriously...shouldn't that be a sign that there must be a catch?

The schools only need 1 person to have successfully completed this and they can advertise such nonsense without too much problem. I can think of one school that take their better students and offer them work internally. Unfortunately, their typical students are not close to being prepared to work in any capacity of IT. (yes I have seen a few of these gems apply for work and they don't get past the interview).

Grant it, IT does take a certain type of person, but IT is also a field where the best candidates are extremely motivated to work on their own, test their own theories and work at applying their knowledge onto live Networks without causing downtime.

I've seen many talk the talk, but they don't have a lab set up (let alone use it once it is up), they do not read/study on their own, and then they wonder why no one will hire them for their skills.

And while IT hasn't dried up in MI, if you want an IT job in MI you need to prove yourself. At the moment, it is very similar to the CPA situation back in the early 90s. Lots of experienced talent available and some companies would rather tap those people then the kids fresh from school. Some companies thought they could save a little money and bring on a kid from school as a mere accountant and not a CPA.

OH, IL, WI have a similar situation going on too (as do many of the States), there is good experienced talent already available. Going through a non-traditional degree program doesn't put a person in front of Experienced people with great personalities nor in front of those fresh from a traditional degreed program with great personalities.

Lawsuits are not the solution here though.

Keep in mind, Remote solutions have made it possible and affordable for companies to outsource their former internal IT support to a consultant who could realistically support 30-100 different companies throughout his/her day. It's also been a great way for consultants to support smaller companies who want/need IT staff, but cannot afford a year round salary + benefits.

And as more end-users are becoming more familiar with computers, having IT staff on location to reset passwords and update software...just doesn't make sense when you could hire a local consultant to remotely solve this for you at a fraction of the cost.

The girl's education may infact be just fine...she's simply fallen into the 1980s model of how companies were going to run IT departments. Now many simply don't need IT staff on hand every day. 1 day a week maybe, with some phone support, but not every day.

It was common years ago to see companies with Payroll departments (and frequently this was one person in the Accounting Department who handled all the time cards and check issuing for payroll). With technology advances, not only have payroll departments been squeezed out of companies, Accts Receivable and Payables have been squeezed down to many times 1 person or a manager simply handling the process through a simple accounting software or online.

So, there are times that by the schools ramp up their advertising to get students interested in programs...the work isn't available simply because technology has moved us away from tediously hand calculating processes to quickly tallying results and making a history available in a variety of report formats...it doesn't take a team of people any longer to do these processes...it takes 1 or a consulting company a phone call away to handle it.


And...it is possible, maybe the girl in the story just isn't a desirable candidate leading to her not finding work, right? No fault of the school, but something with her personality or maybe even with her knowledge? Maybe the coursework wasn't difficult enough to force her to learn the material? Hard to say as I haven't met her, but this lawsuit should be tossed out.

eMeS

I'm not sure how any of you legal geniuses can come to conclusion that her lawsuit is silly, frivolous, or without merit. The story simply does not provide enough information to support that kind of conclusion, or any conclusion for that matter.

I would call jumping to that conclusion laziness on your part.

In fact, you might want to go sue your school (or your parents) if this is the pinnacle of your critical thinking.

It's a fairly standard initial legal response to any suit to respond with "the suit before the course is totally without merit, and therefore should be dismissed." The article relays this statement by quoting the school spokesman, which is very different than a critical look at the facts that results in this conclusion.

Regarding a generalization about 1 age group or another; isn't generalization a form of laziness?

People have been complaining for thousands of years about youth and laziness.

I'm always amused to see those of you living in glass houses being the first to throw stones...

MS

msteinhilber

ipconfig.all wrote: »

We live in a cold and a very strange world.

She has every right to sue them, since they gave her FAKE promises. Good on her I hope she wins.

In I.T is all about who you know than what you know. Sad but true, I mean it don't matter if you have a degree, if you do not have the correct contacts you will have a hard time getting in. If you have just bunch of certs and if you have good contacts in the I.T game then there is a high chance that you could be employed.

Luck plays a major part in this world, more than skills.

I think you are jumping to conclusions here based on one-sided information, how do you know they gave her fake promises? It sounds like you either had a bad experience with a school or are guilty of generalizing all schools into the category of fake and profit mongers.

It's actually in the best interest for schools, especially for-profit schools, to place their students. Most for-profit schools will advertise a placement rate in a career related to their field of study and they often have their career services/development departments trying to place as many students as possible. All you know is she doesn't believe she received enough help from the school to find a job, no more information known to support your sweeping statement.

I'd like to know how much effort she put in to assist the career advancement department to help her find a job, it works both ways - you don't just say "hey find me a job" and have interviews magically line up. I've worked with the career services department in my school and they work more as a proxy between you and prospective employers, I also know a lot of students who do not use it because "it's too much work" and just resort to dumping resumes out there and hoping for the best. For all we know, this woman could just be lazy and expect a resume to be sent to a lead and have a job just magically appear. I'll wait for more facts to arise before I make any judgments on the school.

arwes

I just wonder if she worked to get any IT experience during her college years. When I interviewed for the job I had before this one, the manager showed me the stack of resumes of people with IT degrees versus the stack of people that just had IT experience. The college degree pile was huge, but the vast majority of them worked at fast food places.

Even if you can't find a paying IT job during college, you can almost always find a place that will accept volunteer work. A network admin friend of mine volunteered for the local Office of Civil Defense, just doing desktop support for them. He got a letter of recommendation out of it which helped a great deal in his job searching.

undomiel

My take-away from the article is this: "On top of her unemployment woes, Trina now faces mounting debt from student loans."

I definitely recommend to avoid college unless/until you can pay for it in full.

Based off the information given in the article I definitely would categorize the suit as frivolous. It isn't a college's job to give you a job. It is their job to provide education and a degree. It is up to you whether you accept and use it correctly though.

Claymoore

undomiel wrote: »

Based off the information given in the article I definitely would categorize the suit as frivolous. It isn't a college's job to give you a job. It is their job to provide education and a degree. It is up to you whether you accept and use it correctly though.

In some way, it is a college's responsibility to help you land a job. In fact, it is one of the criteria used by ACICS for accreditation.

Accreditation Criteria - Policies, Procedures, and Standards

3-1-111. Institutional Effectiveness Plan. Each campus shall have on file an Institutional Effectiveness Plan (IEP). A main and its branches may share aspects of an IEP, such as the mission, but each main and branch campus is expected to have its own plan for effectiveness that describes the characteristics of the programs offered and of the student population, describes what types of data will be used for assessment, identifies outcomes, and states how continuous improvement will be made to improve or enhance outcomes at the institution. At a minimum, the following five elements will be evaluated for institutional effectiveness:

(a) student retention rates;
(b) student placement rates;
(c) level of graduate satisfaction;
(d) level of employer satisfaction; and
(e) student learning outcomes.

Lose the accreditation and you can lose the eligiblity for certain federal financial aid such as the GI Bill.

skrpune

undomiel wrote: »

My take-away from the article is this: "On top of her unemployment woes, Trina now faces mounting debt from student loans."

Yeah, I saw that & the part where her mother way saying they'd be homeless but paying back student loans. Unless they're private loans, she can totally file for hardship deferments...if they are private loans, then they might just be up a creek.

Obviously we don't have the full story here, but it sounds like someone may have not been totally responsible with their loans. I've thought long and hard before accepting student loans, and I've done my homework & calculated costs, etc. I'm not willing to take on any more debt than I'm sure I can comfortably pay off once I'm out of school, and I'm certainly not going to blame anyone else for my inability to get a job after graduation, especially in a sucky economy. She's going to have a hard time proving that the school is being negligent and that it's not her own fault or own doing that she can't get a job.

jryantech

What the hell is Monroe College?

itdaddy

man I thought my loan was bad! holy crap!
no wonder she is pissed off!

brad-

JavonR wrote: »

sounds like someone doesn't want to start at the bottom

+1
and/or is unwilling to relocate

msteinhilber

itdaddy wrote: »

man I thought my loan was bad! holy crap!
no wonder she is pissed off!

She might be upset about the costs, but she knew exactly how much her tuition would cost and what her loan costs would entail before taking those classes.

varelg

Ironically, just below the last post on this topic, an ad from a school of the type that just got sued by one of its students...
Schools that make false promises should be held liable. I considered attending classes at some of these schools, however after being presented with a price that rose eyebrowses I backed off. That and listening to expiriences of some of its students I met, they all admited they'd be better off with home studies, instructors' lectures often started and finished with "read page nm and come back if you have any questions". The only thing that would justify paying any money with this type of "education" is access to some higher-end equipment that a typical home- studying candidate simply doesn't have access to.
If education got comoditized, then buyer's remorse should also apply.

msteinhilber

varelg wrote: »

Ironically, just below the last post on this topic, an ad from a school of the type that just got sued by one of its students...
Schools that make false promises should be held liable.

I haven't looked at the school's website, but I highly doubt they guarantee employment - no sensible organization that wasn't a pure scam would guarantee employment. As a result, I see no grounds for a lawsuit.

varelg

msteinhilber wrote: »

I haven't looked at the school's website, but I highly doubt they guarantee employment - no sensible organization that wasn't a pure scam would guarantee employment. As a result, I see no grounds for a lawsuit.

But they advertised nevertheless... and what do you do with a product you paid for but doesn't do what it was advertised to do?