If your IT degree doesn't work, sue that college!

petedude

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Somehow I am not surprised by this. This generation is amazingly lazy and selfish. What business would even consider hiring you when you go sue crazy.

It's not just the current generation. Think of how many people you know, young or old, who will not even go after a certification or take a college class if it involves more effort than pressing buttons on a remote.

As a country, we have been WAY too pampered. It's starting to catch up to us, too.

hypnotoad

petedude wrote: »

Think of how many people you know, young or old, who will not even go after a certification or take a college class if it involves more effort than pressing buttons on a remote.

On a related note, this is from Kiplinger's article I was reading today:

"This summer, Education Secretary Arne Duncan announced efforts to 'shorten and streamline' the process. No wonder since, as an example, the standard federal college aid form, known as the FAFSA, is over 150 questions long and confuses applicants. Many give up."

Yeah, if you can't fill out a form, what's gonna happen when you actually are required to write a paper or do homework?

stangman

Saw this update today. Sue This School | The Big Money

dynamik

stangman wrote: »

Saw this update today. Sue This School | The Big Money

The link to the Onion blurb was great (I missed that):

I authorized my secretary to get on the phone and offer this Trina Thompson a position in the sales department. This is precisely the type of litigious mediocrity I want on my team!

WilliamK99

It's a sad story but she has noone to blame but herself....

Nobody is going to hire her now....

eMeS

stangman wrote: »

Saw this update today. Sue This School | The Big Money

That's an excellent story.

For those of you who commented in this thread and in rep points about this suit being frivolous, it's clear that you have no idea what "frivolous" means in a legal sense.

Fun with words time..."frivolous" doesn't mean that you (or anyone else) thinks that the lawsuit is stupid. Frivolous means that there was literally no point to the claim/argument made in the suit. It can also be used when to describe a suit that has been brought malisciously.

To the anonymous person who asked me, "People never file frivoluous suits, right?", the answer that I have for you is yes, they file them all of the time. However, according to the known facts about this case this is not one of those times. My suggestion to you: if you're so incompetent that you can't be bothered to learn the real meaning of something and read the details about a situation before posting foolish comments, then there might be a school in your past that you too can sue.

To the other anonymous person who claimed that I "presume too much", I think a clear reading of the comments in this thread will show that I presumed the least in comparison. I'm not saying that she should win or that she is "entitled" to any certain amount; I am saying that she (and the school) have a right to justice.

If I agree in to deliver a bushel of apples to you at a certain time, and I fail to uphold my part of that agreement, you have a legal right to sue me for failure to deliver services. That is the crux of the argument made in her suit; certain services were promised and then subsequently not delivered as promised.

The great thing about our legal system is that it is now up to her to prove her allegations. I would venture a guess that this will not be an easy thing to do.

I'll get off the rant now; it just really irks me when people jump immediately to a conclusion without understanding the situation, which was about 90% of the comments in this thread.

MS

networker050184

eMeS wrote: »

I'll get off the rant now; it just really irks me when people jump immediately to a conclusion without understanding the situation, which was about 90% of the comments in this thread.

MS

I agree here. Everyone is assuming that she is suing because she couldn't find a job. If you read the article she is suing over job assistance promises that were not fulfilled, not that her degree itself didn't get her a job.

Read the details people!

jjbrog

lol This sorta reminds me.

When I decided to go to college, I was originally going to go to Rasmussen. They promised me by the end of summer(first class starting in April) that I would have enough certs to land me a $16 an hour job. How the hell is this even possible? I can see maybe have a A+ cert but I don't see that getting me a decent job, maybe even A+ and Net+ but still. private colleges really try to convince you I see.

I have a friend who goes there, same program, hes a year in. And he still doesn't know what the OSI model is....Thats like the first thing ya hear about when going for networking lmao.

After student loans, I'd still have to pay over $600... Granted my job has tuition reimbursement of $6000 a year, but still.

So I go to a public school instaid.

Panzer919

Is this chick for real?

I will be the first to admit that I did not do as well as I could have while working on my AS degree. I started my AS with over 40 people and graduated with 9. Out of the 9 of us 2 have networking jobs. When it came to getting in peoples faces and making them believe in my skills as an IT Professional I worked my butt off. I fell on my face plenty of times, you get up and do it again until something works.

Lazy people like this will never learn. She has no experience and apparently cannot sell herself to a potential employer so IMHO she needs to stay unemployed(might give her plenty of time to get the silver spoon out her @55)

sorry for the rant but people who think things are just supposed to be given to them piss me off!

networker050184

Panzer919 wrote: »

Is this chick for real?

I will be the first to admit that I did not do as well as I could have while working on my AS degree. I started my AS with over 40 people and graduated with 9. Out of the 9 of us 2 have networking jobs. When it came to getting in peoples faces and making them believe in my skills as an IT Professional I worked my butt off. I fell on my face plenty of times, you get up and do it again until something works.

Lazy people like this will never learn. She has no experience and apparently cannot sell herself to a potential employer so IMHO she needs to stay unemployed(might give her plenty of time to get the silver spoon out her @55)

sorry for the rant but people who think things are just supposed to be given to them piss me off!

How do you know that she thinks stuff should just be given to her? She is suing for things that were promised but not delivered in the way of employment assistance. Read the damn article. The suit isn't based on her not being able to get a job, its based on not getting services that were promised. I don't consider myself lazy, but I know I'd sure be pissed if I was promised certain services and they were not delivered. I'm sure you would feel the same.

Ashenwelt

Having people I know go through schools that made wild promises... maybe this will get them to clean up their act?

varelg

WilliamK99 wrote: »

It's a sad story but she has noone to blame but herself....

Nobody is going to hire her now....

Oh I wouldn't rush that judgment. The guy that lied while being a reporter in New York Times is now a life coach...

itdaddy

Originally Posted by WilliamK99
It's a sad story but she has noone to blame but herself....

Nobody is going to hire her now....

a marketing trick gone bad! I agree 100 % who is going to hire a sue happy college student who needs to pay big big loans back!

noone! she is screwed!

itdaddy

Having people I know go through schools that made wild promises... maybe this will get them to clean up their act?

every school I have seen or been too even the USAF and miltary have promised big things...that is life..it is up to us to weed out the bull-crap!

a part of growing up is to weed the truth from the falsehood!
it sucks but it is the truth! Life is what you make it no matter what anyone says....doesn't matter what advantages people have gotten over you, it always depends on you and what you make it!
Learning to take ownership of your life and your successes and mistakes is a very huge lesson to learn, but often misunderstood and overlooked!

veritas_libertas

Here is a newer article on the story...

08.18.09

The Disgruntled Graduate - Forbes.com

undomiel

Looks like she has a job offer now, that's one way to go about getting it. The article definitely seems slanted towards painting her as the bad guy though.

Solaris_UNIX

veritas_libertas wrote: »

Here is a newer article on the story...

The Disgruntled Graduate - Forbes.com

Note this quotation from the Forbes article:

To add merit to her case against Monroe when discussing her complaint with various media outlets, Thompson boasts a good attendance record and a 2.7 GPA, despite having overlooked multiple spelling errors in her complaint like, "tutision" and "reinbursement."

WTF? If she can't use readily available tools such as Google or dictionary.com to help her correctly spell simple words such as "tuition" and "reimbursement" in a legal document then maybe that's the reason why she can't make it through a single job interview! Go to the following link below for a copy of the legal forms and you can clearly see the frequent spelling mistakes and bad grammar:

http://i.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2009/images/08/03/thompson.pdf

And a 2.7 GPA is nothing to brag about, especially knowing how some of these bottom tier schools graduate unqualified people that didn't do their homework just to meet their quotas

Also, did it ever occur to anyone that to have a successful career in IT, you have to... you know... not suck at computers?

One would think that if she was a real computer geek she would have her own blog or web site that explained her side of the case in detail and that she would also be trying to gain some support on traditional computer geek / freetard hangouts such as IRC and usenet.

skrpune

Ok, I just read through that pdf of her legal forms, and I have a question. If she's suing for $70K tuition reimbursement and $2K for stress, how does that total up to $75K? (That's the total listed on page 5 of the pdf.)

I'm not trying to be mean, but if she doesn't have a great GPA and can't express herself well in written form and she also can't add, then maybe it's not the college's fault that she's not getting called for interviews. They can't MAKE people call her for interviews, that's not how career assistance works. They can try to help you with your resume and they can have a listing of folks they work with, but there's no guarantees for jobs anywhere, especially not in this economy and especially when you're not a stellar candidate.

eMeS

skrpune wrote: »

Ok, I just read through that pdf of her legal forms, and I have a question. If she's suing for $70K tuition reimbursement and $2K for stress, how does that total up to $75K? (That's the total listed on page 5 of the pdf.)

I can't figure it out either.

skrpune wrote: »

I'm not trying to be mean, but if she doesn't have a great GPA and can't express herself well in written form and she also can't add, then maybe it's not the college's fault that she's not getting called for interviews.

Actually, isn't this exactly why the university might be culpable?

Personally, I attended a school for undergrad. where an inability to spell and add would have resulted in failing multiple classes and not receiving a degree. You did too. Are we to assume that her bachelor's degree is equivalent to ours? Theoretically that's the case, but in practice it's clearly not true, in fact, we would have never been admitted to our schools without demonstrating those abilities.

Not withstanding any earlier education she received, a degree can be looked at as a form of risk control. Among many other things, the risks being controlled include things like 1) can this person stick with something long-term, 2) can this person to do basic arithmetic, 3) can this person spell, and 4) can this person synthesize complex ideas. Clearly, in this case a bachelors degree from Monroe College is not controlling these risks; as an employer how could I ever feel comfortable hiring someone that received a degree from that school?

skrpune wrote: »

They can't MAKE people call her for interviews, that's not how career assistance works. They can try to help you with your resume and they can have a listing of folks they work with, but there's no guarantees for jobs anywhere, especially not in this economy and especially when you're not a stellar candidate.

Schools, particulary those organized purely on a for-profit basis, have a tendency to make promises that they can't deliver. That's one reason why schools like DeVry, Monroe, UoP, Capella etc.. get sued often. There is a serious lack of integrity in that industry. Not to start a religious war, but anyone getting a degree from any of these places is taking a huge risk.

My thoughts after reading the legal briefs (thanks for posting that link) is that her case is fairly weak, but not dead in the water. I think she missed a good opportunity to point out some key weaknesses in the for-profit education system. However, this case might have already worked for her, and in turn seriously damaged Monroe College.

Personally, I see the current state of for-profit education in the US to be very similar to the meatpacking industry in the early 1900's. Except that the problems with for-profit education are much more serious and deadlier to our future than the meatpacking industry ever was. Read The Jungle - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (Except go actually read the book).

MS

skrpune

eMeS wrote: »

Actually, isn't this exactly why the university might be culpable?

You might think so at a first glance, but I'd venture to say no. If you use the same criteria for the certification world, then it's CompTIA's & Cisco's & Microsoft's fault that there are certified people out there that don't know what they're doing and/or are brain dumping. There's always a way to get through exams (certification or scholastic) without retaining the knowledge and being able to apply it after the fact. Is that ideal? Hells no. But it's reality. And it makes me kinda sad.

eMeS wrote: »

Personally, I attended a school for undergrad. where an inability to spell and add would have resulted in failing multiple classes and not receiving a degree. You did too. Are we to assume that her bachelor's degree is equivalent to ours? Theoretically that's the case, but in practice it's clearly not true, in fact, we would have never been admitted to our schools without demonstrating those abilities.

Agreed. Again, this is how I would LOVE for academia to work, but it's not reality. It used to be that high school diplomas were what were needed to succeed...then associates...then bachelors...now all of those are being discredited in a way by being so widely held that in order to succeed, many people are moving up the chain to post-graduate work. The problem is that folks feel that they are entitled to degrees if they put in the class time and pay the tuition. I feel that an education should be available to everyone, but not everyone can get an associates or bachelors or masters. It may be cruel, but it's the truth - not everyone has the previous schooling and/or abilities to continue on to higher education.

eMeS wrote: »

Not withstanding any earlier education she received, a degree can be looked at as a form of risk control. Among many other things, the risks being controlled include things like 1) can this person stick with something long-term, 2) can this person to do basic arithmetic, 3) can this person spell, and 4) can this person synthesize complex ideas. Clearly, in this case a bachelors degree from Monroe College is not controlling these risks; as an employer how could I ever feel comfortable hiring someone that received a degree from that school?

I'll agree with you here. I think it's obvious that where you get your degree, not only what level of degree you have, has something to do with how it is perceived and how your education is respected. In some cases, you can overcome this, but the name at the top of that diploma carries at least some weight.

eMeS wrote: »

Schools, particulary those organized purely on a for-profit basis, have a tendency to make promises that they can't deliver. That's one reason why schools like DeVry, Monroe, UoP, Capella etc.. get sued often. There is a serious lack of integrity in that industry. Not to start a religious war, but anyone getting a degree from any of these places is taking a huge risk.

I'll mostly steer clear of this, except to say that I believe folks should look into all options when investigating their education. I have my own thoughts about certain "for profit" schools, but I also know that there are some highly intelligent and skills people who attend them. And since I haven't and I really don't know the details of the quality of the education offered, I'll just say that I personally preferred to pick a state school for my education - it may not be the most highly respected program in the state, but it's flexible and challenging and more than reasonably priced, and that's what I'm looking for in my education.

eMeS wrote: »

My thoughts after reading the legal briefs (thanks for posting that link) is that her case is fairly weak, but not dead in the water. I think she missed a good opportunity to point out some key weaknesses in the for-profit education system. However, this case might have already worked for her, and in turn seriously damaged Monroe College.

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but I just can't see how she can win this. I'd be very interested to see how this plays out.

eMeS

skrpune wrote: »

You might think so at a first glance, but I'd venture to say no. If you use the same criteria for the certification world, then it's CompTIA's & Cisco's & Microsoft's fault that there are certified people out there that don't know what they're doing and/or are brain dumping. There's always a way to get through exams (certification or scholastic) without retaining the knowledge and being able to apply it after the fact. Is that ideal? Hells no. But it's reality. And it makes me kinda sad.

I would apply the same criteria to the certification world. The certification vendors are accountable for the security of the test and the value of the certification. Cisco is an excellent example of a company working to protect the value of their certifications by taking steps that help ensure that those that earn the certs actually did and can do the work.

Additionally, the IT industry isn't the only one that bestows certifications. Many others do as well. Whether it's a certification, degree or some other credential, that is exactly what the granting body is saying; that the holder is qualified for whatever the credential qualifies you for...

skrpune wrote: »

Agreed. Again, this is how I would LOVE for academia to work, but it's not reality. It used to be that high school diplomas were what were needed to succeed...then associates...then bachelors...now all of those are being discredited in a way by being so widely held that in order to succeed, many people are moving up the chain to post-graduate work. The problem is that folks feel that they are entitled to degrees if they put in the class time and pay the tuition. I feel that an education should be available to everyone, but not everyone can get an associates or bachelors or masters. It may be cruel, but it's the truth - not everyone has the previous schooling and/or abilities to continue on to higher education.

I don't see it as cruel, and I couldn't agree more that not every job requires a degree. When everyone is elite, then no one is elite. If everyone has a degree it simply becomes "tables stakes". I can remember a time (and it wasn't that long ago) when college degrees were a very elite thing. Now it's become a largely watered-down mess. This is one of the many problems with purely for-profit higher education; in order to survive they must sell more classes.

skrpune wrote: »

I'll agree with you here. I think it's obvious that where you get your degree, not only what level of degree you have, has something to do with how it is perceived and how your education is respected. In some cases, you can overcome this, but the name at the top of that diploma carries at least some weight.

In many ways, that's all that left to differentiate one degree from another. Accreditation certainly doesn't do that for the consumer; for the most part many of these institutions are allowed to hide behind that "we're accredited therefore the education we offer is equivalent" scam

skrpune wrote: »

I'll mostly steer clear of this, except to say that I believe folks should look into all options when investigating their education. I have my own thoughts about certain "for profit" schools, but I also know that there are some highly intelligent and skills people who attend them. And since I haven't and I really don't know the details of the quality of the education offered, I'll just say that I personally preferred to pick a state school for my education - it may not be the most highly respected program in the state, but it's flexible and challenging and more than reasonably priced, and that's what I'm looking for in my education.

My intent is not to say that people don't work hard for degrees from these schools. I believe that they do, and as I've said many times, regardless of what the educational experience is, you get out of it exactly what you put into it.

In all fairness, many of these for-profit programs are much more expensive than degrees from for-profit schools. I have one graduate degree from a very good top-level school and most of a second one from that same school, and I've yet to spend $70k.

Regardless of anyone's standpoint on this case, in any of these decisions we can all agree, caveat emptor.

skrpune wrote: »

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but I just can't see how she can win this. I'd be very interested to see how this plays out.

The issue that I have with it is I don't see clear evidence of the promises that were made and then evidence of how those promises were broken. Still, not a deal breaker yet because she could build and show this evidence later in the case.

I'd like to point out how this thread started by the plaintiff being called "lazy" and then somehow that being indicative of a whole generation of people. Nothing in here really says laziness to me, and I'm certainly not willing to write off an entire generation of people that I might have to depend on one day. I think it's fairly normal to expect to receive something that was promised to you.

MS