If your IT degree doesn't work, sue that college!

CompuTron99

Why can't she pick up a non-IT related job to help cover the bills for now.

eMeS

msteinhilber wrote: »

I haven't looked at the school's website, but I highly doubt they guarantee employment - no sensible organization that wasn't a pure scam would guarantee employment. As a result, I see no grounds for a lawsuit.

Not sure how you can decide that without any of the facts. She's not suing them because they "guaranteed employment".

First, I suggest that you all read article that the link in the OP was based on. It was by the NY Post and can be found at:

JOBLESS GRAD SUES COLLEGE FOR 70G TUITION - New York Post

Second, it says very clearly in this article (albeit partially) what are the grounds for her suit.

"The information-technology student blames Monroe's Office of Career Advancement for not providing her with the leads and career advice it promised. "

This is clearly a service that they do advertise on their website. If they promised this, and then didn't deliver it, do they not have some liability?

Seriously people, read critically and don't jump to conclusions when you have less than the full story.

MS

EmpoweredBizTech

The comments that our generation is lazy is ignorant and a foolish statement. And if I recall that was said about the previous generation as well. I have been in IT since I was 18 I am now 28. I for one have never had a problem finding a Job. My longest run on a job search has been 2-3 months. I achieve those results by not being lame. I'm earning 85k a year and have progressed steadily during my career. Where I do find fault however is these schools especially the ones in New York City where I started my career all advertise this job placement and aid and all fall short. Of the jobs they do offer few are even jobs in the IT market. I recall a number of years ago hosting a booth and a job fair for one of these school and I was the only IT company providing IT jobs. This event was hosted in Madison Square Garden. I was mobbed and shocked I literally had a line at the door and down the stairs while the others booths were empty. I for one believe these school are not the most honest marketers. when it comes to IT a degree it doesn't mean anything without some natural skill and experience. I for one have no student loans as I never got a degree and it has yet to date stop or hurt my career in anyway.

rsutton

My problem is that she is sueing for the total cost of her tuition. Does she value everything she learned at nothing? I don't know what value one would place on this service, but I don't think it is reasonable to ask for %100 of your money back when you were provided with an education and a degree. This is what makes it sound frivolous.

eMeS

rsutton wrote: »

My problem is that she is sueing for the total cost of her tuition. Does she value everything she learned at nothing? I don't know what value one would place on this service, but I don't think it is reasonable to ask for %100 of your money back when you were provided with an education and a degree. This is what makes it sound frivolous.

If anything that's a legal tactic. If the defendent is found liable then the court would decide damages.

What tells me that this lawsuit is not frivolous is that there is not a mention of trying to recover potential "future earnings". (In all fairness, we're not really told this in the story).

It's up to her to prove the allegations, and to clearly show the financial impact of those allegations before a civil court can make an award. Most likely, this case will be settled outside of a courtroom.

MS

brad-

eMeS wrote: »

This is clearly a service that they do advertise on their website. If they promised this, and then didn't deliver it, do they not have some liability?

For the most part, colleges are not much different than any other business. They're in business to make money, and do a little research - depending on the school.

I can imagine someone in the school's marketing department just got aggressive on advertising and didnt think it could possibly be questioned.

It really isnt a cut and dry issue if you think about it for more than 5 seconds. In the end though, I still dont think the university can be held accountable for 70k over this. If they were, it would set an awefully scary precedent.

eMeS

brad- wrote: »

For the most part, colleges are not much different than any other business. They're in business to make money, and do a little research - depending on the school.

I couldn't agree more. I own a business. If I promise one thing and deliver another then I am opening myself up to liability. Schools do the same thing. Reality is that anyone can be held accountable for the promises that they make.

brad- wrote: »

I can imagine someone in the school's marketing department just got aggressive on advertising and didnt think it could possibly be questioned.

I find what their website says in terms of the services offered is pretty clear, and doesn't seem agressive to me at all. In fact, it seems relatively standard in terms of what I've seen other schools offer for "career guidance", etc.. Here it is:

Monroe College wrote:

Every student at Monroe College has a Career Advisor, who provides one-on-one assistance with career decision-making, resume and letter writing, and job search strategies. The Office of Career Advancement helps with career assessment, resume writing, job search and strategy, employer recruitment and placement, interviewing skills, and other job search guidance. Registering with E-recruiting allows you to view online job listings, post a resume to the database, and access additional web-based career resources.

Monroe College - Career Advancement

It's great to offer services like this. The problem with offering a service is that you have to actually deliver that service. None of us can know whether or not that occurred in this case. The woman in the article claims that services promised weren't delivered, which is what led to this lawsuit.

brad- wrote: »

It really isnt a cut and dry issue if you think about it for more than 5 seconds.

No, and very few things are.

brad- wrote: »

In the end though, I still dont think the university can be held accountable for 70k over this. If they were, it would set an awefully scary precedent.

You're probably correct, however, it's is up to the plaintiff to demonstrate the impact of the failure to deliver services, and then up to the court to make a decision. The number is simply a legal tactic, to try to pin a real number of this with the minimal knowledge we have would be guessing at this point.

MS

blargoe

EmpoweredBizTech wrote: »

The comments that our generation is lazy is ignorant and a foolish statement.

I'm one of the people who commented on this, I agree with the generalization despite being part of the generation to which it refers. Personally I'm doing just fine in my career progression as are you. From what I have seen, for every one like you and me, there are 5 that fit these generalizations made about us "younguns".

mikej412

eMeS wrote: »

Most likely, this case will be settled outside of a courtroom.

Sounds like something her lawyer would have said.

It's probably worth a lot more to the school than $70,000 to defend their business model and future income/cash flow. Even with a settlement, no admission of liability, and a confidentiality agreement, I doubt they'd want to open themselves up to the possibility of having to "reimburse" all or part of their past students' tuition -- and start making allowances for future refunds.

I just checked -- one of "those schools" that advertises on late night TV seems to still be in business, despite many years and many student claims over the years of the only requirement for earning A's and getting a degree is paying the tuition. The only time we ever hired one of their students was when one of our recruiters was cruising fast food drive thrus looking for people with "people skills" for entry level help desk positions. But at one point we did get lots of their students walking in to drop off resumes -- but when we complained to their "placement office" they removed us from their "jobs list."

But let's face it -- isn't all marketing and a lot of political campaign promises based on the premise that there really is a sucker born every minute?

eMeS

mikej412 wrote: »

It's probably worth a lot more to the school than $70,000 to defend their business model and future income/cash flow. Even with a settlement, no admission of liability, and a confidentiality agreement, I doubt they'd want to open themselves up to the possibility of having to "reimburse" all or part of their past students' tuition -- and start making allowances for future refunds.

Exactly...at some point it all becomes a cost-benefits analysis. I'm betting that the "real" number here is 10% of 70k. It's very easy to quickly rack up $7k in attorney expenses. Just my guesstimation here, but they probably offer to settle at $7k, the attorney gets 1/3 and she gets the rest and the lawsuit goes away.

You make a very good point that losing this suit is potentially worth much much more than $70k to the school...

MS

veritas_libertas

jryantech wrote: »

What the hell is Monroe College?

I was wondering about this school as well. Never heard of it....

Monroe College - Degree Requirements

veritas_libertas

WOW! I had no idea this would cause such a stir. I was only amused, good grief!

Also, who here has such little patience with me that they feel the need to knock my reputation in the forums? This article had nothing to do with helping someone make a decision, or technical help

If she has a legitimate argument then we will find out. I have seen plenty of colleges STRETCH the truth many times.

I agree with the laziness generalization, but I also secretly wish someone would go after these "schools" that misrepresent the reality of entry level IT, at least get them to change their advertising.

4 MONTHS AND YOU COULD BE MAKING 50, 60, 70 THOUSAND OR MORE WITH A NEW IT CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!111111111111111 1111oneone

You too can be millionaire just follow this easy plan! Yeah, they do remind of get rich quick schemes

I haven't noticed any IT college students being lazy at GRCC. What city are you in veritas_libertas?

I would prefer not to say. I have a great relationship with the IT department and my C.S. Professors. How is I.T. in Grand Rapids? I really wish I had been able to find work in Michigan.

I would add it has more to do with Personality then luck, but certainly being in the right place at the right time and having the right employer interested in you...does help. But it really comes down to one's personality.

But encouraging her to take on this lawsuit and even hoping she wins is like the hot coffee lawsuit. There are too many frivolous lawsuits plugging up the legal system and too many attorney's taking on these cases so delaying swift justice for legitimate court cases.

YMMV

That is my biggest concern. I am afraid she may destroy her future.

The comments that our generation is lazy is ignorant and a foolish statement. And if I recall that was said about the previous generation as well. I have been in IT since I was 18 I am now 28.

I am only a year younger than you. Ignorance denotes lack of knowledge. This has been my experience with those I have worked with and taken classes with. I do admit that my words were overly broad. I should have noted that this was my experience where I live. (99% of the people that graduated with me in the Networking Degree program at my college saw no need to keep studying. They TOLD me that their degree would have to get them a job.) I actually thought that was what I wrote. This is what I get for posting when I have only had 5 and 1/2 hours of sleep over the last two days. I am glad this degree over, and the moving truck filled. I have learned my lesson, I will be much more careful how I word things and what I post.

dynamik

I think you guys are missing the more important, underlying issue here. If I get a lap-dance, and I'm not aroused, who can I sue?

eMeS

dynamik wrote: »

I think you guys are missing the more important, underlying issue here. If I get a lap-dance, and I'm not aroused, who can I sue?

In your case, the guy(s) that performed the lap dance.

MS

dynamik

eMeS wrote: »

In your case, the guy(s) that performed the lap dance.

Thanks, I'm going to make those bastards pay!

eMeS

dynamik wrote: »

Thanks, I'm going to make those bastards pay!

My attorney would have charged me $75 for that small bit of advice.

MS

curtisdaley

A degree is an Academic qualification that proves knowledge, skills and experience + proves comptence within the classroom while Vocational ones look to surpass that!

I'm from London and in the UK we leave school at 16, I went to college to continue my studies, I got myself a diploma, I am 18 years old and am looking to go to University!

I've comleted Cisco : IT Essentials v4, Networking Fundamentals (CCNA1 Exploration v4), Routing Protocols & Concepts (CCNA2 Exploration v4) and currently studying LAN Switching and Wireless (CCNA3 Exploration v4), surely I would be better off getting A+, CCNA, MCSA to get me a solid job!

I'm not quite convinced that going off in October to University to get a degree will get me a good job! I find it extremely funny how people expect to just be handed a great job because they've just come out of uni with a great degree, in most situations they've got no hands on experience/in industry experience, especially if they've not opted for a placement year, in the UK I personally know people in London completing Networking or Business Information Systems Degrees and only ending up getting half or a quarter of their demanded salary.

Having the certs will surely get me into the industry a lot easier than just having a degree and i'll be able to work up and get valuable experience, so by the time the University Graduates come out they won't be able to compete with me really! Even If I stayed on in School for another 3 - 5 years left with a Degree and all my cert's, surely I cudn't compete with someone with decent experience ontop of their quali's, ah its a hard one, the market's getting to the point all the positions i'm seeing are advertising for degree holders, i'm off to do a Bachelors of Engineering in Computer Networks after the summer, thanks in advance for forthcoming feedback!

JockVSJock

This story hits very close to home for me as well, except I didn't take legal action.

I went to Grad School where they made a ton of promises, high salaries and people would be competing to hire me.

Once I got into the system, start to go to alot of classes where the teachers only knew theory. I started to ask around to get a better job and/or experience and all the teachers would do was pass me off onto another teacher or blow me off.

The teachers would have town halls where students like myself would question the program, and we were often told 'respect the program.'

Graduation day comes and goes...Nothing changes...

I consider myself lucky, in that I paid for my college out of my own pocket. Not loaded down with massive debt like some students, who aren't earning enough income to pay it back.

I am not lazy, I gave it 120%...Plus I worked full time while going to school.

Something has gone wrong where people bust balls for a better life and take on massive debt and there is not much hope of a better life.

pipemajor

blargoe wrote: »

I agree with the laziness generalization, but I also secretly wish someone would go after these "schools" that misrepresent the reality of entry level IT, at least get them to change their advertising.

4 MONTHS AND YOU COULD BE MAKING 50, 60, 70 THOUSAND OR MORE WITH A NEW IT CAREER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1111111111111111111oneone

My late father got into a bruhaha with an EMT training school. Dad was the state official who certified these training programs. This guy was selling his school as being "state certified" when he was indeed not. He wound up writing an op-ed piece and urged readers/former students to sign a petition to force the state to grant certification. My old man wrote a counter op-ed and explained why this guy's program did not meet the state standards. Finally the editor had to intervene because of the volume of calls the debate generated. The school administrator wound up being sued (successfully) by graduates for misleading promotion of his "certified" training program. He deserved to be sued.

On the other hand, I wonder how many injured passengers will wind up suing Continental Airlines for their injuries incurred because they chose not to wear their seatbelts when the sign was lit. Flight 128 hit severe turbulence, causing the plane to descend violently. Those passengers not wearing seatbelts got slammed around.

Kasor

Do she have any internship? Working experience at the field? Or just another student that expect to get a good pay IT job after received a piece of paper. Get a life... "blond hair..."

SRTMCSE

jryantech wrote: »

What the hell is Monroe College?

it's a college that advertises HEAVILY in NYC subway and buses. On my commute, you can't find a car that isn't plastered w/ advertisements about how you could be completing your degree on the subway/while your toddler takes a nap/on your lunch hour/in the park...i know of a few people that have attended and they are not happy with it either.

then again a TON of schools offer very high rates of employment, especially for people changing careers. breaking into IT is hard, and you usually start at the bottom, how fast you move is up to you. getting an IT job in NYC is even harder from my experience, even with a few years under her belt. a lot of these schools do over promise and under deliver, usually to people who look at a job in IT as a way to escape poverty or make a better life, but they leave out the fact that you cannot jump into an engineer or admin position w/ only what they teach you.

hypnotoad

JockVSJock wrote: »

This story hits very close to home for me as well, except I didn't take legal action.

I went to Grad School where they made a ton of promises, high salaries and people would be competing to hire me.

Ah yes, the famous PK. They were big donors to our program (not UNO, but nearby) and therefore helped shape the curriculum. At least that is why we were told we had to take 2 years of COBOL in the BA program -- in exchange they promised us fancy jobs when we graduate. Nobody got a job.

I think the school just wanted to get some more life our of their cobol investment.

mikej412

Wow -- 2.7 GPA and good attendance record.


Oh Oh Oh Oh OH Oh OH OH!!! She's also upset about preferential treatment to those with excellent grades.

Alumna sues college because she hasn't found a job - CNN.com

"They're supposed to say, 'I got this student, her attendance is good, her GPA is all right -- can you interview this person?' They're not doing that," she said.

Okay -- we've reached the point where this has got to be some kind of Internet Joke.

Since she did file the lawsuit by herself, and knew enough to get out of having to pay the filing fee, I'm now thinking she's trying to work her average grades and Bussiness College Degree into a Law School admission -- if this isn't really a joke..

NetworkingStudent

I go to a school similar to Monroe College, and I knew what I was getting into before I signed up. They’re called career colleges, or what I like to call them for profit schools. I chose the school, because at the time I worked 12 hour shifts. Currently, I work 8 hour shifts, so honestly I could attend a community or technical school, but instead I choose my current school because they have a flexible schedule. Since the schedule is so flexible, the students often pay more for that luxury of extra flexibility. That’s why I believe it cost more to go to a college similar to Monroe College.

I believe this young lady has no case, because she signed the loans, and she knew that she would eventually have to pay that money back. Anyone that has attended school knows upfront of loan amount that they must repay, when the finish their schooling. No school can guarantee you a job; however, they can guarantee you an education, which is what Monroe College did!! The Career Support center at colleges only gives you leads, resume writing tips and formatting guide lines, and interviewing job scenarios.
Some things college can never teach you. Colleges can’t teach you to be personal able, likeable, respectful, responsible, nor can they teach common sense. Ever met someone that was book smart, but didn’t have any common sense? I know I have!! I think this lady lacked these essential life skills.
On a side note, wish these schools would be more upfront about tuition costs.

JockVSJock

hypnotoad wrote: »

Ah yes, the famous PK. They were big donors to our program (not UNO, but nearby) and therefore helped shape the curriculum. At least that is why we were told we had to take 2 years of COBOL in the BA program -- in exchange they promised us fancy jobs when we graduate. Nobody got a job.

I think the school just wanted to get some more life our of their cobol investment.

Do tell us the school you went to, would love to know.

apena7

So we have two claims from her:

"The 27-year-old information-technology student accuses the school's Office of Career Advancement for not living up to its end of the deal and offering her the leads and employment advice it promised, according to The New York Post."

"They have not tried hard enough to help me"

She accuses the school for not offering her leads and employment advice, but then claims they didn't do enough. How much is enough? According to her, the school did at least try to help her. She might not like the results, but as long as job placement isn't guaranteed by the college, then the lawsuit is frivolous. You're telling me that a college graduate doesn't have the foresight to stop and think, "hey, I'm going to be buried in tuition debt soon, how am I going to pay it off?" But no, her procrastination became her downfall.

dynamik

Great comments here: College Grad Can't Find Job, Sues Her Alma Mater (both humorous and thoughtful)

msteinhilber

apena7 wrote: »

She accuses the school for not offering her leads and employment advice, but then claims they didn't do enough. How much is enough? According to her, the school did at least try to help her. She might not like the results, but as long as job placement isn't guaranteed by the college, then the lawsuit is frivolous. You're telling me that a college graduate doesn't have the foresight to stop and think, "hey, I'm going to be buried in tuition debt soon, how am I going to pay it off?" But no, her procrastination became her downfall.

That may be the angle the school uses to get out of this. I cannot speak at all for how her school operates but I am familiar with how my for-profit school's Career Services department operates.

The school gets leads and also locates jobs on other public job boards (state boards, monster, etc). When they get leads in particular, often times the employers are clear to them as far as certain requirements such as they are willing to take grad's with no experience, willing to take seniors nearing graduation on as an intern with no experience, or seeking grads with some experience, etc. If your resume that you have on file with Career Services doesn't meet the requests of the employer that generated the lead, you are not presented the opportunity to allow your resume to be submitted.

Aside from that, they provide services going over your resume, cover letter, thank you letters, etc. They will also provide one on one mock interviews to hone your interview skills. All of these later things really require a great deal of interaction with the Career Services department. I took advantage of it today (I paid for it, might as well right?) and made some good changes to my documents I think. I asked the individual I was working with how many students actually come in and utilize the option to sit down and go over your job search documents since this thread was recently on my mind - she didn't have hard figures on that but guessed around 15%. Many of them will take advantage of leads, but not very many are willing to set aside the time to come in and go over their resume and/or hone their interview skills.

I really hate to say what some others have took issue against earlier in this thread - but it really does seem like a good portion of people out there really have become quite lazy and expect things to magically formulate with minimal effort. I'm not lumping any particular age, gender, or any other attribute into this factor. I attend a school where people of all ages, genders, race, and backgrounds come and it's a common trend that I've been noticing and not one just limited to job searches. Perhaps society collectively has become too normalized to all of these forms of instant gratification we have with technology and expect processes such as looking for work to be an easy send out your resume and get a job process.

hypnotoad

I'd just like to see some truth in advertising...instead of the ad that shows students studying in the quad on a luscious autumn day with big smiles on their faces, a nice multicultural blend of non-threatening, insightful students who will some day go on to great things.

"You won't get a job, your roommate will be a smelly hippie, your professor doesn't really know what he's talking about, the hot water won't work in your dorm room most of the year, and you will be in debt up to your armpits. P.S. We are also the date-**** capital of the state."

dynamik

hypnotoad wrote: »

I'd just like to see some truth in advertising...instead of the ad that shows students studying in the quad on a luscious autumn day with big smiles on their faces, a nice multicultural blend of non-threatening, insightful students who will some day go on to great things.

"You won't get a job, your roommate will be a smelly hippie, your professor doesn't really know what he's talking about, the hot water won't work in your dorm room most of the year, and you will be in debt up to your armpits. P.S. We are also the date-**** capital of the state."

Honest College Ad - CollegeHumor video