Hiring Managers: University of Phoenix

2E151

Question to those of you who are (or have been) an active participant in the hiring process at your local IT company. What do you think when you see a resume come across your desk with a degree from the University of Phoenix?

I've heard some former acquaintances in different industries that said they generally stay away from UOP graduates. The general impression is that because UOP is a for-profit institute it tends to push students along. They mention that a good percentage of the course work is team based and designed to help carry students along who normally might not pass the class.

What's the general opinion on the board towards UOP?

MeanDrunkR2D2

Not very high at all. It's a degree, but most hiring managers tend to shy away from them unless they impress during the interview. At least when they get them.

2E151

MeanDrunkR2D2 wrote: »

Not very high at all.

That's the feeling I've gotten from quite afew sources; I have two colleagues I work with that are attending UOP at the local phyiscal campus. One of them talks about how he's a group leader and he often has to end up doing the majority of the team's work so his grade won't be affected. If someone in the group doesn't do his percentage of the powerpoint slides then the entire group's grade goes down.

It just seems like they know that have to have one hard working individual per team to carry the excess weight...

Another individual told me recently that even Algebra I&II are team based...

Both of these guys I know are extremely sharp and very good at what they do, however I don't know if I want to cast my lot in with UOP when the time comes to get my degree...

earweed

I've heard about the team model UOP has and a lot of people don't like it. How can an employer know that a person with a good GPA has actually earned it?

Devilsbane

Generally a degree is a degree. UOP might not scream "I'm Awesome" but if you back that with an assortment of certification, those can do all of the screaming and the degree will get you passed HR.

cablegod

UoP is responsible for some of the "stigma" associated with online schools in my mind. I can tell you that as a hiring and working IT manager, I put absolutely ZERO stock in the piece of paper from UoP. I will also tell you, when a resume comes across my desk with a school name that I don't recognize and the candidate looks promising enough to me, I DO investigate who the school is, and I also look at the curriculum. If it seems like a cakewalk course of study, with the student turning in ridiculous paper after ridiculous paper, I do not even factor the degree in my decision making process. If anything, it's a slight negative to me that someone would waste their time and money without deeply investigating the school first. I tend to reason they only want the piece of paper and recognition without doing the work and actually LEARNING something useful. If the candidate can demonstrate to me that they have the skills to do the job effectively, and COMMUNICATE effectively, then the piece of paper is a moot point at that time.

eMeS

A good rule of thumb to follow with degrees is that if you have to explain in any way to someone what school you attended, and why you attended that school, then that degree is not working for you.

The school you attended should be recognizable, and that recognition should work for you rather than against you.

This statement is likely to step on some toes here, but this is the core problem with schools like UoP, DeVry, ITT, WGU, Capella, etc... When something is offered that everyone can earn, the extent to which that credential propels any individual's career is severely diminished.

While I truly believe that it's up to the individual to make the best of their educational choices, I also strongly believe that the law of supply and demand plays in educational markets. There is a big supply of UoP degrees that is growing daily, coupled with diminishing demand for those that hold such degrees.

MS

MeanDrunkR2D2

eMeS wrote: »

A good rule of thumb to follow with degrees is that if you have to explain in any way to someone what school you attended, and why you attended that school, then that degree is not working for you.

The school you attended should be recognizable, and that recognition should work for you rather than against you.

This statement is likely to step on some toes here, but this is the core problem with schools like UoP, DeVry, ITT, WGU, Capella, etc... When something is offered that everyone can earn, the extent to which that credential propels any individual's career is severely diminished.

While I truly believe that it's up to the individual to make the best of their educational choices, I also strongly believe that the law of supply and demand plays in educational markets. There is a big supply of UoP degrees that is growing daily, coupled with diminishing demand for those that hold such degrees.

MS

I would have to respectfully disagree with you lumping DeVry into that grouping of schools. DeVry is well respected by many employers and has never been a negative against me in my career. I saw more than a fair share of DeVry burnouts who couldn't keep up with the program and dropped out.

thenjduke

Why is WGU in there? From what I understand it is actually a hard program.

2E151

eMeS wrote: »

When something is offered that everyone can earn, the extent to which that credential propels any individual's career is severely diminished.
MS

The argument I often hear is professionals working a "hard-money" IT job don't have time to attend the local institutes. For the most part, that's absolutely true. Instead they have to make due with online or semi-online colleges that at most, might require one night a week.

Even taking one class a quarter at my local community college takes up 2 nights a week, 4 hours a night. Luckily I have an outstanding boss (and an understanding wife) who allows me to make up the lost time on the weekends. Many people aren't this lucky.

It's easier to get your degree online. And I believe thats where the stigma comes in against UOP; hiring managers are catching on that online colleges are a much easier method of obtaining a degree.

eMeS

MeanDrunkR2D2 wrote: »

I would have to respectfully disagree with you lumping DeVry into that grouping of schools. DeVry is well respected by many employers and has never been a negative against me in my career. I saw more than a fair share of DeVry burnouts who couldn't keep up with the program and dropped out.

Are you speaking about the same DeVry that has been the subject of several class action suits by students alleging poor quality education and misrepresentation, and has been charged with questionable student loan practices?

DeVry is probably the most questionable in the short list I provided. It's not really an opinion as much as it is an empirical matter than can be verified. You can say a lot of things about DeVry and be correct, but "well respected" is not one of them.

As a general statement any school whose entry criterion is solely ability to pay is going to at best offer degrees of questionable value.

MS

eMeS

2E151 wrote: »

The argument I often hear is professionals working a "hard-money" IT job don't have time to attend the local institutes. For the most part, that's absolutely true. Instead they have to make due with online or semi-online colleges that at most, might require one night a week.

I worked full-time+ and completed education at traditional schools. Many people have. Many people did that plus raised children at the same time.

2E151 wrote: »

It's easier to get your degree online. And I believe thats where the stigma comes in against UOP; hiring managers are catching on that online colleges are a much easier method of obtaining a degree.

Notice I didn't say anything about the modality of earning the degree. Actually UoP, DeVry and others offer onsite classes as well as online. IMO the method of delivery is irrelevant to how respected a degree might be by a potential employer. Many brick and mortar schools offer online programs as well...

MS

eMeS

thenjduke wrote: »

Why is WGU in there? From what I understand it is actually a hard program.

Any educational experience is what you make it. The issue with many of these schools is that their entry criteria is minimal, meaning that the only real criterion is often the ability to pay. When that is the limiting factor then you have a prescription for over-production of supply.

It's simply supply and demand; when there is an oversupply of something, then the market tends to value it less...

MS

Warsh1p

Any educational experience is what you make it.

I agree, but with State/Private Universities you tend to get more knowledgeable professors then you would at a for-profit institution.

My advice for anyone looking into Higher Education and cannot get into a State/Private University as a Freshman is to start at a local Community College.

If you feel too old for a University and have held off getting a degree or just planning to change careers just go for certifications. Keep your current job or get one and purchase the necessary equipment and study materials for certifications in your IT field. Going for a degree at a for-profit school will cost you more, might interfere with your schedule and will not get you the recognition high-level certifications will.

Just my 2 cents

SrSysAdmin

thenjduke wrote: »

Why is WGU in there? From what I understand it is actually a hard program.

I don't remember eMeS commenting on the difficulty of the programs, he was commenting on the difficulty of gaining entry into them. From what I understand anybody who has the money can get into WGU and DeVry, is this not the case?

While you may receive a quality education at WGU, it will certainly hold less value than a more traditional college.


There are plenty of legitimate colleges who offer online programs, there is no reason to have to resort to attending one of these non-traditional schools. For instance, I'm currently looking at getting my MBA in IT online and I can tell you right off the bat that Georgetown and Villanova offer some high quality programs that I'm considering and going to apply to.

thenjduke

eMeS wrote: »

Any educational experience is what you make it. The issue with many of these schools is that their entry criteria is minimal, meaning that the only real criterion is often the ability to pay. When that is the limiting factor then you have a prescription for over-production of supply.

It's simply supply and demand; when there is an oversupply of something, then the market tends to value it less...

MS

Yes I can understand that. I am not so worry about what school is on my resume because I know that I have studied hard and have worked in the field for a long time. Prime example is I have self study every certification I have listed with only the help of the people of this forum and few others. I honestly getting that paper because it seems to be required these days.

thenjduke

JrSysAdmin wrote: »

I don't remember eMeS commenting on the difficulty of the programs, he was commenting on the difficulty of gaining entry into them. From what I understand anybody who has the money can get into WGU and DeVry, is this not the case?

While you may receive a quality education at WGU, it will certainly hold less value than a more traditional college.


There are plenty of legitimate colleges who offer online programs, there is no reason to have to resort to attending one of these non-traditional schools. For instance, I'm currently looking at getting my MBA in IT online and I can tell you right off the bat that Georgetown and Villanova offer some high quality programs that I'm considering and going to apply to.

Yes he clarified himself. It is really not hard to get into any community or state college either. The top notch schools yes but I do not want to attend one of these schools because I would not want to waste money like that.

eMeS

JrSysAdmin wrote: »

I don't remember eMeS commenting on the difficulty of the programs, he was commenting on the difficulty of gaining entry into them. From what I understand anybody who has the money can get into WGU and DeVry, is this not the case?

This is my sentiment exactly. The OP was asking about opinions of hiring managers. I have been and currently am a "hiring manager". Personally what I look for more in someone is a demonstrated ability to achieve results coupled with an ability to describe those results. A candidate's education, while a factor, is not something that would immediately disqualify nor qualify someone for a job. It is a consideration, among many others, that factor into a hiring decision. Fair to point out that some degrees tend to lead to a higher level of scrutiny.

MS

eMeS

thenjduke wrote: »

Yes he clarified himself. It is really not hard to get into any community or state college either. The top notch schools yes but I do not want to attend one of these schools because I would not want to waste money like that.

This is where I think you're wrong. Many of the schools discussed in this thread charge more than what I would consider "top-notch" schools charge.

Generally a degree from a "top-notch" school is never a waste of money. I would argue that the real waste of money is a degree from a school that you have to explain to people.

MS

SrSysAdmin

thenjduke wrote: »

Yes he clarified himself. It is really not hard to get into any community or state college either. The top notch schools yes but I do not want to attend one of these schools because I would not want to waste money like that.

Cost of a BS from Harvard - $144,692

Cost of a BS from the University of Texas - $18,876 instate/$62,700 out of state

Cost of a BS from the University of Phoenix - $67,840


A degree from Phoenix will cost you more than it will cost a Non-Resident to get a degree from one of the best "state schools" that most people would be unable to gain entry into.

It will almost cost you nearly half of what a degree from even Harvard will cost you, and if you think that a Harvard grad won't make up that extra 70-80k over the course of his career when compared to a UofP grad, you are sorely mistaken.

eMeS

JrSysAdmin wrote: »

Cost of a BS from Harvard - $144,692

Cost of a BS from the University of Texas - $18,876 instate/$62,700 out of state

Cost of a BS from the University of Phoenix - $67,840


A degree from Phoenix will cost you more than it will cost a Non-Resident to get a degree from one of the best "state schools" that most people would be unable to gain entry into.

It will almost cost you nearly half of what a degree from even Harvard will cost you, and if you think that a Harvard grad won't make up that extra 70-80k over the course of his career when compared to a UofP grad, you are sorely mistaken.

Finally, someone who gets it...

MS

earweed

thenjduke wrote: »

Yes he clarified himself. It is really not hard to get into any community or state college either. The top notch schools yes but I do not want to attend one of these schools because I would not want to waste money like that.

The Community coleges it may be easy to get into but most state schools still have higher requirements than any of the online schools eMeS mentioned. I'm a student at WGU and I'm not looking forward to having to explain things like the lack of a standard GPA.
The ease of getting into WGU is definitely one of the things which WGU could probably address. Taking their little entrance assessment, which I felt was a joke, could be replaced with something better. For the Masters program there should be a requirement, like most state schools have, that the student have a minimum amount of documented experience in the field they are going to be studying.

Devilsbane

I have enjoyed listening to the conversation here. But I still don't think it matters which school you graduated from, as long as you can back up those skills.

You might have a degree from any of the schools that emes mentioned above, and if you also have several certifications then the school becomes less important. Your college education is very much so what you make of it. Yes, anyone can get into UoP, but not anyone can get a CCNA or an MCSE.

So if you hold those certifications and you can present yourself well in the interview, then you are telling the hiring manager that you are competent and deserving of the job and you probably didn't just go to school to get the paper, you learned something too.

petedude

earweed wrote: »

. . .
The ease of getting into WGU is definitely one of the things which WGU could probably address. Taking their little entrance assessment, which I felt was a joke, could be replaced with something better. For the Masters program there should be a requirement, like most state schools have, that the student have a minimum amount of documented experience in the field they are going to be studying.

They do require a bachelor's degree for entrance to grad school, though.

dennis1960

JrSysAdmin wrote: »

Cost of a BS from Harvard - $144,692

Cost of a BS from the University of Texas - $18,876 instate/$62,700 out of state

Cost of a BS from the University of Phoenix - $67,840


A degree from Phoenix will cost you more than it will cost a Non-Resident to get a degree from one of the best "state schools" that most people would be unable to gain entry into.

It will almost cost you nearly half of what a degree from even Harvard will cost you, and if you think that a Harvard grad won't make up that extra 70-80k over the course of his career when compared to a UofP grad, you are sorely mistaken.

$18,876 for a 4-year degree? That's about $150 per credit hour. I paid $120 for my community college. I'm living in the wrong state.

Cost is one of the driving forces for my decision to attend WGU. That and the fact it's geared more toward what I need for future employment opportunities (BS and certs).

I understand the scope of this thread is to magnify the preconception that online degrees do not, at this time, have the same prestige as a traditional brick and mortar college degree. But the online institution does have a niche by offering a good degree to someone who would otherwise shy away from the traditional campus due to either time or money.

The downside is that places like UoP have a negative reputation that tends to bleed over other online colleges that do take the time to offer a quality education. People really need to do their homework before committing to these places to make sure that the degree is worth something.

Just my opinion

earweed

To clarify my remark about the assessment test: I previously attended a state university and they had a minimum ACT score required for entrance (I scored a 26 so I was in, no problem) and the WGU entrance test may seem difficult to some. For those out of school for many, many years it can seem like a really hard test. For me it seemed like a really basic competency test even though I basically gave up on school due to too much and not enough back then.
WGU has afforded me the opportunity to continue my education (abandoning my 2.1 GPA..lol) and finally get my degree. I chose WGU for several reasons:
1) Flexibility
2) Cost
3) Get certififates while getting my degree
If I have to explain about WGU during an interview it's not really a problem to me. I'm just hoping that I get those interviews.

eMeS

Devilsbane wrote: »

I have enjoyed listening to the conversation here. But I still don't think it matters which school you graduated from, as long as you can back up those skills.

The question was about perception of degrees by hiring managers. Perception is a factor. It does matter. Perception of your credentials can sometimes be the factor that decides whether you even get the interview in the first place.

Devilsbane wrote: »

You might have a degree from any of the schools that emes mentioned above, and if you also have several certifications then the school becomes less important. Your college education is very much so what you make of it. Yes, anyone can get into UoP, but not anyone can get a CCNA or an MCSE.

There is nothing so special about a CCNA, MCSE, PMP, ITIL Expert, or any other certification that means that anyone that wants those things can't get them. Yes, anyone can get any certification.

I don't know anything about being a CPA. If I wanted to I could go complete the requirements and become a CPA. These things are all choices.

MS

Warsh1p

eMeS wrote: »

I don't know anything about being a CPA. If I wanted to I could go complete the requirements and become a CPA. These things are all choices.

MS

Yep.

I don't get the argument that not anyone can get a CCNA certification. There is no requirements for taking the exam.

Not anyone can get a Harvard/MIT/CIT degree is fact.
I doubt someone has been turned down by Prometric when scheduling their CCNA exam because too many people have taken it (been accepted) this year, GPA wasn't high enough, did not take honors or AP classes, etc.

Honestly though we can all sit here and discuss State University education against For-profit education all day. But when it comes down to it, and "it" being applying for a job, I would rather be the guy with the Bachelors from a State University.

SephStorm

There are quite a fe opinion in this thread and I have not been able to read them all, but I would like to give my opinion on these comments.

UoP is responsible for some of the "stigma" associated with online schools in my mind. I can tell you that as a hiring and working IT manager, I put absolutely ZERO stock in the piece of paper from UoP. I will also tell you, when a resume comes across my desk with a school name that I don't recognize and the candidate looks promising enough to me, I DO investigate who the school is, and I also look at the curriculum. If it seems like a cakewalk course of study, with the student turning in ridiculous paper after ridiculous paper, I do not even factor the degree in my decision making process. If anything, it's a slight negative to me that someone would waste their time and money without deeply investigating the school first. I tend to reason they only want the piece of paper and recognition without doing the work and actually LEARNING something useful. If the candidate can demonstrate to me that they have the skills to do the job effectively, and COMMUNICATE effectively, then the piece of paper is a moot point at that time.

It seems to me that you have negated your first statement in the last sentence here. Either the degree is thrown out because of the name, or they are judged on their merits. Often in my experience, this cant work, as if the degree is thrown out, the candidate doesn't meet the retirements and never has the opportunity to be judged on merits.

IMO, it is a very bad idea to put "zero stock" in anything a person may have earned. In the Army, some people devalue Combat Action Badges, however, I refuse to judge a person I see walking around with one based purely on that stigma. Some people **** on certifications, I don't judge all cert holders because of it. IMO, a better system would be to say simply, "this person has a degree, they meet that qualification, now lets bring them in, see if they know what they are talking about."

I'm sure it's possible to **** your way through any number of "well known" universities, even without cheating, study for your tests and turn in a few papers and suddenly you are suddenly more educated than someone else. Its purely marketing in many cases IMO.

This statement is likely to step on some toes here, but this is the core problem with schools like UoP, DeVry, ITT, WGU, Capella, etc... When something is offered that everyone can earn, the extent to which that credential propels any individual's career is severely diminished.

Interesting but IMO, flawed. There is no technical reason everyone cannot have a degree. Some people don't wish to pursue them, some are unable to afford them, and a few other reasons. I do not think that this should be used as a filtering tool for that reason. I don't see a degree listed among your accomplishments, I should not assume that that means you could not earn one, nor would I assume that a person who went to UoP could not have earned a degree from a more reputable school.

Any educational experience is what you make it. The issue with many of these schools is that their entry criteria is minimal, meaning that the only real criterion is often the ability to pay. When that is the limiting factor then you have a prescription for over-production of supply.

So a harder enty criteria makes a degree worthwhile? If I require you to move a moutain for you to come to my school does it make the education more valuable. Again, I think entry criteria is a tool that is made to make these institutions look better, not to produce a better student. I cant multiply past 24x24, doesn't mean I shouldn't be able to earn a degree as a systems administrator.

It's simply supply and demand; when there is an oversupply of something, then the market tends to value it less...

I can defiantly agree with this statement, though that doesn't mean we have to buy into it. The true value of an educated person has not changed, but the number of individuals holding them has. The way I see it, if 2 million people earned their CISSP certs tomorrow, legitimately, it would not "devalue" it. The cert did not change, neither did the requirements, simply the number of people holding it.

there are so many others I would like to comment on, but time is limited. I hope to see some input from this post.

eMeS

SephStorm wrote: »

Interesting but IMO, flawed. There is no technical reason everyone cannot have a degree. Some people don't wish to pursue them, some are unable to afford them, and a few other reasons. I do not think that this should be used as a filtering tool for that reason. I don't see a degree listed among your accomplishments, I should not assume that that means you could not earn one, nor would I assume that a person who went to UoP could not have earned a degree from a more reputable school.

Seph, you're absolutely right, there is not a technical reason that everyone can't have a degree. However, there is no flaw in the logic that all other things held equal, as the supply of something increases the value decreases. This is a well-established economic principle. I didn't invent it. You should look it up.

If your logic was correct then high school diplomas would be a differentiating factor. They're not.

SephStorm wrote: »

I don't see a degree listed among your accomplishments

This is a cert site, so only certs are in my signature. If you must know:

BSx2
MSx1
ALMx1
2nd ALM-80%

All from state or private schools. I feel like I have the degree thing covered.

SephStorm wrote: »

So a harder enty criteria makes a degree worthwhile?

No, harder entry criteria makes something harder to get, which makes it more scarce. Scarcity tends to drive value. Again, well established economic principles here that aren't going to be changed as a result of a discussion on a certification forum.

SephStorm wrote: »

The way I see it, if 2 million people earned their CISSP certs tomorrow, legitimately, it would not "devalue" it. The cert did not change, neither did the requirements, simply the number of people holding it.

Of course the market would devalue the credential. If there were 2 million people holding it, then there would be at least one of them willing to work for a lower rate than you, and likely someone who would work for a lower rate than that guy, and so on. It would cease to be a factor that differentiates job candidates if it appeared on everyone's resume.

MS

SephStorm

eMeS wrote: »

Seph, you're absolutely right, there is not a technical reason that everyone can't have a degree. However, there is no flaw in the logic that all other things held equal, as the supply of something increases the value decreases. This is a well-established economic principle. I didn't invent it. You should look it up.

If your logic was correct then high school diplomas would be a differentiating factor. They're not.

Of course, the assumed value by an employer does decrease in our society. I was simply stating that I don't believe that the true value of the degree/cert, ect decreases.

This is a cert site, so only certs are in my signature. If you must know:

BSx2
MSx1
ALMx1
2nd ALM-80%

All from state or private schools. I feel like I have the degree thing covered.

I assumed as much, I hope that didnt come off offensively, it was not meant to.

No, harder entry criteria makes something harder to get, which makes it more scarce. Scarcity tends to drive value. Again, well established economic principles here that aren't going to be changed as a result of a discussion on a certification forum.

But of course there could be someone on this forum privy to make such changes, if they saw a value in them. While that is not my intent, I don't think it inappropriate to discuss these issues as they relate to the purpose of this forum. This discussion could very well influence on HR manager to discard, or to consider an applicant from one of the aforementioned universities.

Of course the market would devalue the credential. If there were 2 million people holding it, then there would be at least one of them willing to work for a lower rate than you, and likely someone who would work for a lower rate than that guy, and so on. It would cease to be a factor that differentiates job candidates if it appeared on everyone's resume.
MS

True, the market would devalue it, however, what is the marketed intent of a degree? Is it to earn more money, or to teach a trade or skill? If it is the first, then I have little use for one. Again, my intent is not to dispute what society says about degrees, only to present a viewpoint that perhaps we do ourselves a disservice by limiting career opportunities to those who attended "reputable" schools.