Hiring Managers: University of Phoenix

dynamik

You seem to be making your arguments based on morals and ideals. I don't think you're necessarily wrong from that perspective (i.e. someone with a UoP degree does not have inherently less worth as a human being than someone with a degree from a reputable private institution). However, I think it's disingenuous to pass that opinion off as advice to people who are considering such programs because that's simply not how things work out in the real world. For better or worse, some people will trash your resume based on what institution you attended, or in a situation where everything else seems equal, formal education credentials may be the deciding factor in who gets offered a job.

thenjduke

One reason I feel that some of these private universities are a waste of money is because many people in the real world do not have the money to attend these colleges. Yes they are hard to get in to but I can tell you one thing that I have worked with people from some of these universities and they explain to me it was more of a party for them then school. I take my education, life, work, and family very serious. It is alot of work to be able to get certifications, work about 60 hrs a week, come home spend time with two little kids who want your attention, and then work hard to pass your class even online. Life is busy when you have kids and I just do not have the time to spend going to class and sitting in a class and listen to a professor. Some of the greatest minds did not even go to college. I really think it is what you put into it.

Warsh1p

SephStorm wrote: »

I'm sure it's possible to **** your way through any number of "well known" universities, even without cheating, study for your tests and turn in a few papers and suddenly you are suddenly more educated than someone else. Its purely marketing in many cases IMO.

Lol

This is not serious?

Cheating your way through a well known university is nearly impossible compared to brain dumping a multiple choice certification.

You also have to factor in even getting accepted. You don't sign up for Harvard/MIT/CIT or top state Universities through Prometrics.

Warsh1p

SephStorm wrote: »

True, the market would devalue it, however, what is the marketed intent of a degree? Is it to earn more money, or to teach a trade or skill? If it is the first, then I have little use for one. Again, my intent is not to dispute what society says about degrees, only to present a viewpoint that perhaps we do ourselves a disservice by limiting career opportunities to those who attended "reputable" schools.

This is absurd. Your intent is not to dispute what society says about degrees? Yet you earn certifications so society acknowledges your intellect on a certain subject.

Anyone can go to a Cisco Academy or whatever you want to call the supporting mill. But not everyone can go to a State University without some type of accreditation (SAT, ACT, A.A. degree, etc).

Name the last student out of a Cisco Academy that helped create or develop any Cisco technology not just supported it.

SephStorm

Warsh1p wrote: »

Lol

This is not serious?

Cheating your way through a well known university is nearly impossible compared to brain dumping a multiple choice certification.

You also have to factor in even getting accepted. You don't sign up for Harvard/MIT/CIT or top state Universities through Prometrics.

True, but i am certain there are incidents of it happening, I believe (not positive) that some of these higher end universities have "honor codes" and students can be punished for violations. Of course for every one that is caught...

And I am not speaking only of Ivy league schools. I was specifically referring to traditional state universities. What does it take to get in most state universities? SAT/ACT scores, a decent GPA, letters of recommendation, money? The hardest are the first two in that list.

So lets not say cheating, I asked on another forum a while ago how many people had been to college, and how many of them felt they got a worthwhile education. Many of them stated that they learned little during college. Granted, they admitted that their time was spent "partying" but that is precisely my point. How many people make it through any number of well known reputable universities by partying at night and cramming before the big test, not knowing a thing when they graduate, degree in hand.

Of course, I want to state that I believe a poll of people on this forum would be different, people who have been in this field for a while, and those new to it who have a passion for it, generally are hard working and dedicated to learning.

eMeS

SephStorm wrote: »

True, the market would devalue it, however, what is the marketed intent of a degree? Is it to earn more money, or to teach a trade or skill? If it is the first, then I have little use for one. Again, my intent is not to dispute what society says about degrees, only to present a viewpoint that perhaps we do ourselves a disservice by limiting career opportunities to those who attended "reputable" schools.

I think we can find common ground here...everything else held equal, I would prefer to pursue knowledge for the sake of knowledge. However, I realized early-on that society tends to reward certain things over others, and hence my choices.

My tendency when hiring is to evaluate the person's ability to achieve results, but honestly, what degree they have and where the degree comes from is definitely a factor.

MS

eMeS

SephStorm wrote: »

True, but i am certain there are incidents of it happening, I believe (not positive) that some of these higher end universities have "honor codes" and students can be punished for violations. Of course for every one that is caught...

I can tell you for a fact that I've witnessed cheating in what many would consider reputable schools. Cheating and dishonesty are human traits that tend to show up in all aspects of life.

MS

cablegod

eMeS wrote: »

I can tell you for a fact that I've witnessed cheating in what many would consider reputable schools. Cheating and dishonesty are human traits that tend to show up in all aspects of life.

MS

Exactly. I can say from my experience at WGU so far, the graders are very tough. They do not let anything slide by, and I do mean anything. If it's questionable, it gets rejected back to you for revisions. I had a feeling that they might be lenient in the very beginning, but that is completely wrong from my experience this far.

Seph, I think you misunderstood me a bit. To clarify, when a resume comes across my desk that has UoP in it, that plays no "real" role in my decision if the individual lists the skills that *I am in need of*. If I get a cold resume that has UoP in it, and I don't need their listed skills, it gets tossed quickly. If I see one with Harvard, MIT, etc, yes, I look at it longer and what else they have to offer. A recognized school DOES get a resume noticed faster. I promise you that. I guess what I am trying to say is, UoP/Devry/ITT, etc grads are scrutinized heavier by me, and I'm more cautious about them than I normally am. Its just that simple.

SrSysAdmin

I think everybody is confusing what is being said...it isn't that a degree from Phoenix or WGU is intrinsically worth any less because that simply isn't the case. What is being said is that a degree from one of these types of universities isn't worth as much on the marketplace due to the ease of access to such degrees.

I don't buy the money argument. As I previously shown, a degree from one of these online costs more than most state schools do out of state. If you really want to save money why would you not obtain one from one of your local public universities?



These degrees from online universities (the non-traditional ones) have a long way to go before they will hold the same value as a traditional university.

Devilsbane

eMeS wrote: »

The question was about perception of degrees by hiring managers. Perception is a factor. It does matter. Perception of your credentials can sometimes be the factor that decides whether you even get the interview in the first place.



There is nothing so special about a CCNA, MCSE, PMP, ITIL Expert, or any other certification that means that anyone that wants those things can't get them. Yes, anyone can get any certification.

I don't know anything about being a CPA. If I wanted to I could go complete the requirements and become a CPA. These things are all choices.

MS

I have to disagree with this. For those first few jobs, yes your education is going to be high on their priorities list. But when you also have 5+ years of experience, you probably didn't stay hired for 5 years by not knowing things.

I wouldn't say that "anyone can get any certification" but I will agree that it is possible for people to slip through the cracks from time to time. When you combine an educational experience, with certifications, and on the job experience, then having a poor school on your resume doesn't mean much. You might have went to a school that tends to produce trouble, but from time to time someone with actual skills also comes out.

ajmatson

As a former student at UOP for a year I can say it is a crap school. I spend about $1620 a month on that school and in the whole year I learned nothing. All you do no matter what class is write papers. Even my project management class guess what? We wrote papers. It is a complete waste of time and money. I have learned more at WGU in 3 months then I did all year at UOP.

eMeS

Devilsbane wrote: »

]I wouldn't say that "anyone can get any certification"...

What is it that you think is so special about any certification that prevents anyone that wants one from getting it?

The same applies to degrees. Trust me, if you want a degree from Harvard, you too can have one.

These things are all choices.

MS

Bl8ckr0uter

eMeS wrote: »

What is it that you think is so special about any certification that prevents anyone that wants one from getting it?

The same applies to degrees. Trust me, if you want a degree from Harvard, you too can have one.

These things are all choices.

MS

Certain certs have pre reqs such as job experience such as CISSP or SSCP. Others have requirements of previous certs such as GSE. Those certs are "special" in that regard. Also they usually mean they are worth more because of it. Still I do understand your point.

I would like to go to Harvard, care to release a 6 step guide.

Devilsbane

Oddly enough, there is a University of Phoenix at the bottom of this page.

Certification tests are designed by a team of experts whose job it is to make you fail. If anyone could pass the test, then there would be no benefit to holding that credential. Do you think your grandma could pass a Microsoft test? Mine couldn't, she can barely turn her computer on. And that is even after showing her dozens of times.

And the fact is, if she was able to study up and pass a Microsoft test, then she should be qualified to do the work. So maybe anyone could pass, but by passing it they should have the knowledge to work in the field and do the job.

thenjduke

ajmatson wrote: »

As a former student at UOP for a year I can say it is a crap school. I spend about $1620 a month on that school and in the whole year I learned nothing. All you do no matter what class is write papers. Even my project management class guess what? We wrote papers. It is a complete waste of time and money. I have learned more at WGU in 3 months then I did all year at UOP.

I am happy to hear this. I am so glad I got away from UOP. I went to Devry and started to learn things but I could not justify the price.

Devilsbane

thenjduke wrote: »

I am happy to hear this. I am so glad I got away from UOP. I went to Devry and started to learn things but I could not justify the price.

I wouldn't blame the school entirely on this. Often it is a single teacher that drags you down. Where I went, there were many good teachers who were qualified to work in the field. There was also one bad teacher who proably isn't qualified to work in the field, and he made it hell.

thenjduke

Devilsbane wrote: »

I wouldn't blame the school entirely on this. Often it is a single teacher that drags you down. Where I went, there were many good teachers who were qualified to work in the field. There was also one bad teacher who proably isn't qualified to work in the field, and he made it hell.

Trust me UOP is bad. It is more doing english then anything. I did not feel like I learn anything from their IT courses. Yes writing papers is good to know helps alot with resume writing and sorts but I am a technical person as well and like to learn more.

Bl8ckr0uter

My 0.02


Certifications <> Degree in most situations. Mainly because of the time involve in getting a degree (2-4yrs+) vs certifications (most either a couple of weeks to months). Since the most valuable thing in this world is time, obviously something requires more time is going to be considered more valuable. This is why the Security+ <> SSCP. Even though both test over similar material and both are considered entry level in terms of knowledge, one requires something that the other doesn't--time (in the form of work experience).

I think this mindset goes back to the Journeyman days, where you could work under someone and be trained in the correct way of doing things (some jobs are still like this). People didn't just become a pro, they had to work hard (which isn't to say that certs aren't hard work in there own right). Do I think my CCNA is worth something? Yes I do! Do I think my A.A.S will be worth more? Probably, because I can at least say I have a degree. Do I think my BS will be worth even more? YES!

Devilsbane

thenjduke wrote: »

It is more doing english then anything.

Is that supposed to be a pun?

Devilsbane

knwminus wrote: »

Even though both test over similar material and both are considered entry level in terms of knowledge, one requires something that the other doesn't--time (in the form of work experience).

Yes you can get a cert in a month, but how much work is done? Taking 12 credits a semester equates to about 48 hours spent sitting in a classroom each month. Each exam that I prepare for, I spend probably 2 hours a day, at least 5 days a week. Often I'll spend 4 or 5 hours on the weekend.

An entire Associates degree will come out to about 853 hours of class time. I get this by (5/6)*16*16*4 or 50 minutes times 16 credits a semester times 16 weeks in a semester times 4 semesters. Yes I'm not counting homework here, because to be frank I didn't need to do much in my degree. For my last exam I spent an estimated 55 hours of studying over the course of about 5 weeks. Times that by the other 6 exams in the MCSE series, and I will have spent 385 hours studying in order to get my MCSE. That is also assuming that the 293 and 294 are going to take the same amount of time as the 290, and I bet they take more.

The other thing to consider is that while the associates degree required 853 hours, how much of that was spent sitting in a class not doing anything, or sitting in a English class? I believe I had 40 technical credits in my degree, so that is 533 hours of time.

Even with the 533 hours, how much of that was doing stuff that I already knew, my basic hardware and software class, a basic programming class. The 40 credits also includes non IT classes, like my Law class, and my interviewing/interrogation class. I'd need to pull up the degree report to assess exactly how many IT classes I had.

Bl8ckr0uter

I didn't say how much work, I said how much time makes the difference. There is a huge difference in what I said and what you are saying. Work (when not talking about the math definition) is subjective to who is quantifying it. What I mean is my hour of fighting fires could be very different from your hours of working a desk job. TIME on the other hand is definite. If I say I have worked at a job for 4 years, then regardless of whether or not I am the best or a bum, I can say that my time not arguable. Someone could say you haven't done anything while you were here, or you were great but again that is all opinion based, at least until you start comparing it statistically.

What were you grades like (if you don't mind sharing)?

eMeS

knwminus wrote: »

Certain certs have pre reqs such as job experience such as CISSP or SSCP. Others have requirements of previous certs such as GSE. Those certs are "special" in that regard. Also they usually mean they are worth more because of it. Still I do understand your point.

I would like to go to Harvard, care to release a 6 step guide.

And whether or not you have the pre-requisite experience is a choice. We are all the sum of our choices.

http://www.amazon.com/How-Get-into-Graduate-Schools/dp/1601382154/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1276796484&sr=8-1

The thing is, you all already know the answer to how to get into a good school. Get good grades, have high standardized test scores, write a stellar entry essay, and show commitment to extracurricular activities.

MS

Devilsbane

What is better, working part part time 10 hours a week for 2 years, or working full time 40 hours a week for 1 year? Yes, the full time person has only worked for 1 year, but he racked up 2,080 hours of experience, while the part time person only has 1,040 hours of experience. I measure time by time spent working, not calendar years.

My girlfriend worked at a bank a few months ago, she worked there for about 3 months, and they would only give her 12 hours a week. After 3 months she was frustrated that she still wasn't sure on the processes. Well she only worked there for 144 hours. Her knowledge was equivlent to a full time person who had been on the job for just over 3 weeks. No wonder she didn't have the process down.

Also, I have checked my course guide on the website. 35 It credits. The rest were law, or english, or statistics, or philosphy... (5/6)*35*16=467 hours.

I spent 467 hours in class for my Associates, some of which was wasted chatting at the end of labs waiting for others to finish, or for the teacher rambling on, or because we got let go early one night. VS the 385 hours (which I believe is a low figure) to get an MCSE, where each hour is spent doing hardcore studying, and not just half listening to an instructor ramble.

I'm not saying that a college degree is bad, it isn't. If it was I wouldn't have worked to get one, and I wouldn't be transfering to a 4 year school. I'm just saying, I don't think that a degree is going to outweigh a collection of certifications.

I said this in another post at one time, and I think it holds equally true here. How many people do you know, that started college right after highs school, and still managed to get their bachelors degree, yet they spent every moment they could partying and sleeping through their morning classes? Because I know several that are still living that life, yet just about to get their degree.

Devilsbane

knwminus wrote: »

What were you grades like (if you don't mind sharing)?

3.91 on technical pieces (those 35 credits) 3.5something on the others, and I graduated with a 3.7

Bl8ckr0uter

Devilsbane wrote: »

I measure time by time spent working, not calendar years.

Most places and most people aren't like that. I have gone on 10-15 interviews and most places (and most applications) don't ask how many hours you worked at a place. They ask what were the dates. For the record, when I applied for a local AFB they did ask me that on the app. In fact most government apps that I have seen want hours as well. To be fair though thinking about it that way is better and more realistic.


I understand what you are saying. Also good job on the grades. I hope to raise my GPA to about that level so I can graduate with Honors (and get more money when I go for my BS).

I can tell you that for me (and I have no degree) I have lost to people with BS/MS degrees and I have gotten jobs over people with BS (no MS degree holders though ). Maybe its about how easy it is to get to a certain place or not. I mean say you have two people with the same amount and quality of exp and one has a degree and one has a few certs. You could (in theory) certify the non certified person, FASTER (and possibly cheaper) than degree the non degree holder. Maybe they think that the person with a degree has a greater spread of knowledge and is more teachable. Who knows....

Bl8ckr0uter

eMeS wrote: »

And whether or not you have the pre-requisite experience is a choice. We are all the sum of our choices.

Amazon.com: How to Get into the Top Graduate Schools: What You Need to Know about Getting into…

The thing is, you all already know the answer to how to get into a good school. Get good grades, have high standardized test scores, write a stellar entry essay, and show commitment to extracurricular activities.

MS

How much do you think having a degree from an IVY has helped you in your career?

Devilsbane

knwminus wrote: »

most places (and most applications) don't ask how many hours you worked at a place. They ask what were the dates. For the record, when I applied for a local AFB they did ask me that on the app. In fact most government apps that I have seen want hours as well. To be fair though thinking about it that way is better and more realistic.

They don't ask, because they don't really need to. Most IT jobs are a 40 hour a week kind of thing, so it is a safe assumption. I just used this as an example to compare school time to cert time. Also counting hours becomes too cumbersome, and is also easy to exaggerate. Try and count all of the days off you took and the overtime hours.

Which is more important depends on the hiring manager. I have seen this go both ways. If the person hiring values certs, then they are more important. I never dissed getting a degree, I just think that outside the first job or two after you get it, the school doesn't matter.

How much does your law school matter? You would think a lot, but I was talking with my professor who teaches 2 days a week and works in his law office the other 3 days. He told me that he has never once been asked where he went to school. Once you are working in the field, the college doesn't matter as much.

Warsh1p

eMeS wrote: »

What is it that you think is so special about any certification that prevents anyone that wants one from getting it?

The same applies to degrees. Trust me, if you want a degree from Harvard, you too can have one.

These things are all choices.

MS

I completely disagree with the "If you want a degree from Harvard, you too can have one".

You need very high SAT and ACT scores, write an essay and interview. Harvard turns down thousands of 4.0 GPA students, valedictorians, and perfect SAT scorers every year.

It is simply absurd to say anyone can get into an Ivy league/Private school.

CIT only accepts around 500 students a year.
WGU, ITT, DeVry and so-on accepts whoever applies and anyone can study and test for a certification.

Certifications or an online degree will never hold the value as a degree from any top Ivy league or Private school.

EDIT: All of this said, I still don't think it matters if you have an Ivy league/Private degree, a State University degree or an online non-profit/for-profit degree. I highly doubt someone with a degree from WGU is going to be applying for the same job a Harvard or MIT grad is applying for.
State Universities vs. Online/For-Profit schools would be the real question but it is your own preference... Do you want to be the guy applying with a State University on your resume or the guy with the online/for-profit institution on your resume?

Bl8ckr0uter

I don't think where you go is going to be as important for 90 percent of jobs period. For those upper 10 % I think it matters.

Now I DO think that it matters to more than 10 percent of hiring managers though.

eMeS

Warsh1p wrote: »

I completely disagree with the "If you want a degree from Harvard, you too can have one".

You need very high SAT and ACT scores, write an essay and interview. Harvard turns down thousands of 4.0 GPA students, valedictorians, and perfect SAT scorers every year.

It is simply absurd to say anyone can get into an Ivy league/Private school.

Simply put, you are wrong.

How do you think I got a degree from one? I wanted it, so I mapped out a plan and did what I had to do to get it. It was a choice. I could have made an easier choice, but I didn't. If I choose to spend all of next January in Cambridge, then I will have completed coursework necessary for a 2nd one.

You see, it's a choice. Do I want to spend a month in Boston and several thousand $$$, or would I rather hang out in Texas and not wrap up that degree.....Getting accepted in the first place was also a choice.....

Undergraduate standards are tough, without a doubt. But what we all achieve in life is determined by the choices we make.

Graduate programs are often a bit easier to get into at top-tier schools. At least one other member here, if he is reading this, will back me up on that statement.

You're implying that admission to these schools is random, and somewhat out of control of the applicant. Nothing could be more different from the truth. Additionally, universities are notorious for circumventing all of their processes, including their admissions processes.

Again, if you want to attend a top-tier school, and work to achieve that goal, then you will make the choices that get you there.

You are the only person that is in control of the choices you make.

MS