Unix or Linux or CCNA?

Which to get first? I'm currently studying for my CCNA but it will still be a while before I can take that test. However in looking for a new job most people seem to want linux or unix more so than ccna. I mean how hard is it to get experience with unix or linux in a home lab type setup?

I know ccna would more so be for networking and unix/linux sys admin type stuff but the job i'm looking for would be for kinda both.

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dynamik

I disagree as well. I think having at least CCNA-level knowledge is very beneficial for systems administrators. Your servers don't communicate via hopes and dreams.

phantasm

dynamik wrote: »

I disagree as well. I think having at least CCNA-level knowledge is very beneficial for systems administrators. Your servers don't communicate via hopes and dreams.

I would agree with that. Although at my last job the whole dang IT department ran on hopes and dreams. We hoped the servers wouldn't fail and we dreamed that if they did, we could replace with them something from this decade. meh.

it_consultant

Having more knowledge is preferable to having less. CCNA knowledge is good to have and will improve your career considerably. However, system administration and CCNA are fundamentally different skills.

On the outset thinking "CCNA is really going to help me with systems admin" is just not correct IMO. CCNA will help with your job and making you a better employee but what we use in sysadmin roles is barely at the Network + level. In fact...I think the things that they teach in Network + is more applicable to sysadmins than CCNA is.

Having said all that, getting the CCNA will never hurt you. If your going for a sysadmin job then taking the education track of the servers that are being used is step number one. I think the red hat professionals are in huge demand too, you may get more bang for your buck with that one.

dynamik

Maybe I should have said systems engineering instead of systems administration to avoid a semantic argument. If you're doing design/planning, CCNA-level knowledge will make you better at your job.

it_consultant

I use sysadmin and sys-engineer interchangeably, so I am not going to argue semantics. Based on my experience, the Linux professionals I work with use very little CCNA knowledge. They absolutely understand the fundamentals of networking, but if you start rattling off terms specific to CCNA (VLANs, bridging, routing, etc) their eyes will glaze over.

The original question was whether or not one should pursue network engineering (CCNA stuff) or linux / unix administration. In order to become a linux / unix administrator you really have to know sendmail, kerberos, apache, mySQL, etc. Absolutely nothing in the CCNA - CCIE will prepare you for those skills.

I am not trying to devalue the CCNA, I hold it and it is helpful to me in my job which includes no only sysadmin roles (my specialty is exchange) but some network engineering where applicable.

For *nix admins the focus of your education should be on those things that people utilize linux servers for.

Bl8ckr0uter

it_consultant wrote: »

They absolutely understand the fundamentals of networking, but if you start rattling off terms specific to CCNA (VLANs, bridging, routing, etc) their eyes will glaze over.

Vlans aren't specific to the CCNA, neither is routing. I would consider that to be something universal. Maybe this is just a difference of experience but most of the *nix engineers I know seem to be very well verse in networking.

it_consultant

No, its specific to network engineering. The point is to actually do the job of a *nix admin there are far more important things to know than the CCNA curriculum. One would not be well served to learn CCNA to better themselves as a *nix admin. Instead, they would focus on Apache or mySQL.

Many *nix guys know networking very well because they set up LANs in their house so they can practice their skills.

dynamik

I've repeatedly said CCNA-level. That can be referring to the equivalent level of knowledge with Juniper or whatever other vendor they're using. I'm really surprised to see you include VLANs in the unnecessary knowledge. Those are huge. Especially if you're working with ESX or another virtualization platform. Segregation is of paramount importance in those environments.

I felt going through the CCNA along with Network Warrior made me a significantly better admin/engineer overall. I think it's obvious I'm not literally saying that by going through the CCNA you're going to get better at administering Exchange, shell scripting, or whatever. Also, just because something is working does not mean that it was set up optimally. I firmly believe that anyone responsible for any critical/high-performance servers should have that level of networking knowledge. They be able to alter their configurations that facilitate better performance, security, etc.

Let me reiterate this though, I couldn't care less if they actually obtain a CCNA. In fact, I would prefer it if they didn't. That makes my resume look better

stuh84

it_consultant wrote: »

For *nix admins the focus of your education should be on those things that people utilize linux servers for.

I would have thought the focus for a professional would be to acquire whatever skills possible, that way you are never pidgeon-holed into one type of job, and are not limiting your options.

Heero

You can't learn everything, so focusing on things that people actually use is generally a good bet.

it_consultant

stuh84 wrote: »

I would have thought the focus for a professional would be to acquire whatever skills possible, that way you are never pidgeon-holed into one type of job, and are not limiting your options.

Normally I agree, however this is out of the scope of the original topic. The poster expressed an interest in Linux/Unix administration. I contend that to follow through with this goal you have to learn that platform. Professionally speaking its very good to have 2 skills, keeps you employable. However, since the original poster is not already a *nix admin, I feel he should focus on the education and training that will get him to that goal.

N2IT

phantasm wrote: »

I know a CCNA who didn't know what telnet was.

Hahaha

I suppose you didn't automatically assume he dumped or anything.

Paul Boz

I was working pretty hard on the LPIC exams before I got my current job. I pretty much stopped because we're a 100% windows shop. I would definitely encourage you to develop Linux skills, because many of the best network management solutions are on Unix/Linux. I've noticed that networking and Linux go hand in hand. Many of the network engineers that I know somewhat resent MS (as petty as that is) so much of the networking space is populated by Unix admins.

Bl8ckr0uter

Paul Boz wrote: »

I've noticed that networking and Linux go hand in hand. Many of the network engineers that I know somewhat resent MS (as petty as that is) so much of the networking space is populated by Unix admins.

What I am wondering is how long it takes to go from User to Helpdesk to Admin level in *nix and how to make sure employers know that. I am looking to get into the *nix administration and security but it seems like many employers want 5+ years of Linux/Unix/AIX/Solaros before they would even consider you. I have considered dropping my LPIC-1 studies and focusing on picking up the MCSA this year (since I am already going to do a MCP). My current job is like 99% percent windows and it is discouraging for someone who wants to go the other route. I am happy to be working though lol.

I don't know. I think that in the short term I won't see the benefits (no one is going to jump to hire me for a linux job because of the LPIC-1) but as I progress further I might see the reward. We will see

veritas_libertas

knwminus wrote: »

What I am wondering is how long it takes to go from User to Helpdesk to Admin level in *nix and how to make sure employers know that. I am looking to get into the *nix administration and security but it seems like many employers want 5+ years of Linux/Unix/AIX/Solaros before they would even consider you.

I've wondered about this as well. What constitutes Admin level knowledge of Linux/Unix?

For this reason I figure I should study for LPIC or Redhat so that I at least have a path that I can follow.

networker050184

veritas_libertas wrote: »

I've wondered about this as well. What constitutes Admin level knowledge of Linux/Unix?

For this reason I figure I should study for LPIC or Redhat so that I at least have a path that I can follow.

You know Greenville Tech gives RHCE courses right? They have the big Redhat sign on the technology building. I've been thinking about putting my GI Bill to use a few nights a week there (probably not the Redhat courses though).

Bl8ckr0uter

veritas_libertas wrote: »

I've wondered about this as well. What constitutes Admin level knowledge of Linux/Unix?

You know, that is the million dollar (or at least several thousand question). With MS there is a clear path, MCITP:EST/EDST for desktop admin level, MCITP:SA/EA for server level and various other MCTS and MCITPs for speciality technologies. With the LPIC it basically goes, JR, Mid and SR making it (IMO) much more difficult to show your skillset and knowledge level. Red Hat finally released more certs but for the longest time it was basically JR and SR. So I am not sure exactly how to show recruiters/hiring managers that I want to be a linux admin. I know I will at least work up to LPIC-2 level before I am finished with school and try to get as hands on as possible with the technologies. I also know I want to play with various OSes (solaris, *bsd, Cent, Debian, etc) as well as technologies (sendmail, mysql, iptables, etc) so I can broaden my knowledge. Who knows, I might end up going for a basic solaris cert before its all said and done (assuming Oracle doesn't kill it lol).

veritas_libertas

networker050184 wrote: »

You know Greenville Tech gives RHCE courses right? They have the big Redhat sign on the technology building. I've been thinking about putting my GI Bill to use a few nights a week there (probably not the Redhat courses though).

You had me going there for a few seconds...

I have considered doing their Cisco academy but it's stretched out over two years (because I would have to take night classes.) Two years seems a little ridiculous for the CCNA.

veritas_libertas

knwminus wrote: »

You know, that is the million dollar (or at least several thousand question). With MS there is a clear path, MCITP:EST/EDST for desktop admin level, MCITP:SA/EA for server level and various other MCTS and MCITPs for speciality technologies. With the LPIC it basically goes, JR, Mid and SR making it (IMO) much more difficult to show your skillset and knowledge level. Red Hat finally released more certs but for the longest time it was basically JR and SR. So I am not sure exactly how to show recruiters/hiring managers that I want to be a linux admin. I know I will at least work up to LPIC-2 level before I am finished with school and try to get as hands on as possible with the technologies. I also know I want to play with various OSes (solaris, *bsd, Cent, Debian, etc) as well as technologies (sendmail, mysql, iptables, etc) so I can broaden my knowledge. Who knows, I might end up going for a basic solaris cert before its all said and done (assuming Oracle doesn't kill it lol).

Yeah I am sure what to pursue as well. I'm hoping that the SysAdmin job I am able to obtain in the future will have some Linux/Unix servers mixed in. That would at least give me some experience and maybe direction on what to do.

NightShade03

It is worth noting that Red Hat only heavily advertises their RHCT / RHCE exams so to anyone inquiring you'd think Jr / Sr level. Actually the RHCE, even at an engineer level is at the bottom of their cert tree. After the RHCE there are tons of advanced certifications to build onto as well as their RHCA (which is true SR level).

I'm just saying that RHCE may Sr level, but there is so much more beyond that.

varelg

knwminus wrote: »

... I also know I want to play with various OSes (solaris, *bsd, Cent, Debian, etc) as well as technologies (sendmail, mysql, iptables, etc) so I can broaden my knowledge. Who knows, I might end up going for a basic solaris cert before its all said and done (assuming Oracle doesn't kill it lol).

Oracle hasn't killed it yet, but is surely loading the gun. OpenSolaris project is disbanded after months of serious disinterest demonstrated by Oracle. Of course, developers that donated their code (while Oracle is cashing in on it now without paying a dime and it's completely legal) will fork that project under different name but it won't be the OpenSolaris that enthusiasts knew. Play with ZFS while you can. Oh, and you mentioned MySQL, another technology acquired by Oracle, for now it's open source but that may easily change.
Sendmail is to mail applications what Galileo Galilei is to the modern astronomy. But you'll probably still find companies seriously relying on it.
And to answer the question in the title of this topic, it's neither Unix or Linux or CCNA. If you solely chase certifications to hit keywords on HR's drones' list and land a job, you will never complete a single certification and never attain any expertise at any given technology. Stick with what you think would be a great skill to develop and what constantly attracts your curiosity.
Sadly, I am yet to see a sysadmin ad that explicitly or only requires Linux cert , although some of those prospective employers clearly state that their resources are partly run by Linux. At least at the area where I live. Windows admin certs are on the other hand mentioned in almost all of those job ads.

Bl8ckr0uter

varelg wrote: »

Oracle hasn't killed it yet, but is surely loading the gun. OpenSolaris project is disbanded after months of serious disinterest demonstrated by Oracle. Of course, developers that donated their code (while Oracle is cashing in on it now without paying a dime and it's completely legal) will fork that project under different name but it won't be the OpenSolaris that enthusiasts knew. Play with ZFS while you can. Oh, and you mentioned MySQL, another technology acquired by Oracle, for now it's open source but that may easily change.
Sendmail is to mail applications what Galileo Galilei is to the modern astronomy. But you'll probably still find companies seriously relying on it.
And to answer the question in the title of this topic, it's neither Unix or Linux or CCNA. If you solely chase certifications to hit keywords on HR's drones' list and land a job, you will never complete a single certification and never attain any expertise at any given technology. Stick with what you think would be a great skill to develop and what constantly attracts your curiosity.
Sadly, I am yet to see a sysadmin ad that explicitly or only requires Linux cert , although some of those prospective employers clearly state that their resources are partly run by Linux. At least at the area where I live. Windows admin certs are on the other hand mentioned in almost all of those job ads.

I thought they spun off mysql because of antitrust (from the EU)?

But yea I know exactly what you mean as far as *nix to windows ratio in terms of jobs. I have seen a few that require RHCE (and even a few for RHCSS, SCSA,SCNA and GCUX) but most of these want 5-10 years of exp. Sadly I almost feel like I am going to waste my time and money on the LPIC-1. But it is what I want to do so I am going to stick to it. I will probably pick up an Oracle (OCA) cert as I have to do an oracle class anyway. Oh well, maybe that will help although I doubt it. I wish I had a freaking mentor around these parts

oh well.

varelg

phoeneous wrote: »

wtf is mcsa?

It is something that will keep me busy while waiting for NightShade's book on RHCE...

NightShade03

varelg wrote: »

It is something that will keep me busy while waiting for NightShade's book on RHCE...

Haha I appreciate that

I blew through the MCSA no problem, but after that I just couldn't hold an interest in M$ exams...

Bl8ckr0uter

NightShade03 wrote: »

Haha I appreciate that

I blew through the MCSA no problem, but after that I just couldn't hold an interest in M$ exams...

Yea so about that book......

And also how are the RHCE studies coming?

UnixGuy

I didn't read all the replies, but I'll talk from personal experience.

I did my CCNA before I get a real job with UNIX.

I didn't have real life experience with cisco gear, but I practiced in a real lab.

Anyway, it's been three years since the last time I touched any Cisco gear, and I kind of forgot everything related to the Cisco command line. I still know the concepts but I can't do anything anymore with Cisco gear. I'm actually thinking of removing the CCNA from my resume because I don't want an employer to think I cheated or anything because I really forgot a lot of things in the material.

It's a must to have networking fundamentals, you will be a better IT professional , generally speaking.

My advice, it depends on the job oppourtinity. If you get a job where u need to configure/learn network devices then you will learn and it's a good experience and u can back it up with CCNA or CCNP. If you don't, then the world of Unix is so big, there are a lot of things you are expected to know, again depends on the job.

Good luck !

gorebrush

Paul Boz wrote: »

I was working pretty hard on the LPIC exams before I got my current job. I pretty much stopped because we're a 100% windows shop. I would definitely encourage you to develop Linux skills, because many of the best network management solutions are on Unix/Linux. I've noticed that networking and Linux go hand in hand. Many of the network engineers that I know somewhat resent MS (as petty as that is) so much of the networking space is populated by Unix admins.

Now that is very interesting, because I've come the other way. Started out wanting only Microsoft/MCSE etc, done all that and then CCNA was starting to emerge as my next step as for the past 3 years I've been really taken by Cisco and decided that I'd rather be doing that than Servers.

Although I know what Linux/Unix is, I've never attempted to use it in a production environment, and if you sat me down in front of a Linux OS, although my desktop skills are excellent, it'd take me some time to get to know Linux.

Is that bad?

Personally I don't think so as I've never *had* to know Linux. In fact, someone I used to go to college with back in the old days (err 99-01) was adamant that I would fail as an MS Engineer because Linux was going to take over the world and bankrupt Bill Gates so my passion for MS was a waste.

Somehow, I'm glad he was wrong... But he may still be right in some areas.

it_consultant

phoeneous wrote: »

It's all relative. If you work in a Linux environment and don't know Linux then yes, that is very bad.

I like to expose my brain to the many areas of the field but really focus on the things that relate to my job. Do I need to know Linux for my current job? No. Would it help? Sure, since I'm running an Endian web filter and will soon build a Cacti/Nagios snmp box to monitor all of my Windows servers and Cisco gear.

I wish I new more about UNIX but every time I try to learn to do something, I have to BASH something or modify a text file with vi. To Windows guys it is maddeningly complex to do simple tasks in Linux. Of course, in Windows if you try to troubleshoot a problem you can end up 15 layers deep when in linux it would have taken three commands. I guess its about which OS you are willing to take more abuse from.

stuh84

I prefer VI to configure rather than checkboxes that I HOPE are there, but half the time are nowhere to be seen.

I dont see how knowing Linux and other *nix based OS's can hurt anyone, I wouldn't be in my current job doing what I do without it, and I'm a networking guy.

tiersten

Scratch OpenSolaris from the list as under Oracle's amazing leadership, it has crashed and burned. The OpenSolaris project is dead now as Oracle won't release new changes to the closed source branch of Solaris until some unspecified time has past so they can keep the lead over the open source variants of Solaris.

The OpenSolaris governing board has disbanded and OpenSolaris itself has been forked off into a handful of other projects but I don't see it going well.