Is there anybody else that really can't stand Mac end users?

tpatt100

SrSysAdmin wrote: »

Working with Macs isn't outside the norm for many of us, myself included. I haven't come across any issues that I haven't been able to figure out, so that isn't the case.


Besides, if people in tech don't love to learn then they picked the wrong industry. I worked in hospitality for several years before coming over to IT so I tend to be quite good with my end users...but if I can't vent on here then where would you suggest?

Venting to my g/f often isn't very effective as she simply doesn't understand the way you guys do!

My point is that some of these responses make me picture people who approach the end user already with an attitude and people can pick up on that. I know I used to do that with end user they would become afraid or agitated and many would appoligize for calling because they fear the "IT Guy going to make me feel stupid" attitude. Heck that is the reason I have not called AT&T yet about my DSL issue because I dread going through the script of "have you rebooted your computer" and I don't want to counter with the "hey I work in IT can you just check your back end and look at my modem profile please?".

And I have no issues griping here because I do it all the time. Just think that some people look for a type of attitude to justify their view of a particular user.

Hyper-Me

veritas_libertas wrote: »

How much control can you get over desktops with MAC OSX servers?

An "OK" amount. Think an NT domain only with wizards.

Honestly, Open Directory is a joke. Its blatantly obivous that Apple could care less about people using Macs in well managed work environment.

and yeah, discussions like this get me going because i spent too many days triyng to fix a random error on OSX that the OS would give me ZERO information about all while listening to the user talk in my ear about how OSX is so great and the Microsoft Redmond campus should be burned to the groung with every employee inside.

Apple users have bought into a fad and its pretty apparent that most of them can't make decisions on their own.

They also don't care when they get blatantly lied to.....For instance, Apple said 2 days ago that it has sold 120 million iOS devices which is more than Nintendo and Sony's gaming device sales combined....except for the small fact that Nintendo has sold 132million Nintendo DS' ALONE.

chmorin

tpatt100 wrote: »

My point is that some of these responses make me picture people who approach the end user already with an attitude and people can pick up on that. I know I used to do that with end user they would become afraid or agitated and many would appoligize for calling because they fear the "IT Guy going to make me feel stupid" attitude. Heck that is the reason I have not called AT&T yet about my DSL issue because I dread going through the script of "have you rebooted your computer" and I don't want to counter with the "hey I work in IT can you just check your back end and look at my modem profile please?".

And I have no issues griping here because I do it all the time. Just think that some people look for a type of attitude to justify their view of a particular user.

When I was in desktop support I would troubleshoot the issue, not the end user. Generally speaking most of what end users claim is wrong, but not deliberately. "The Internet does not work." does not mean that your IE is sending you to a proxy that does not exist. My point is I do not focus my attention on the user when working.

However, when the user will not allow me to implement a solution because they believe it couldn't be the answer I have an issue. With MAC users my implementation seems to become more personal to them so they put themselves in the issue, causing me to troubleshoot them AND the issue itself. I have seen this occasionally with windows users too, but much more often with MAC users.

Its not the attitude that I bring to the table, is the attitude THEY bring to the table.

veritas_libertas

My sister-in-law has a MAC and I'm glad she does. It means for me that it will, "just work." For me that is great since I'm very unlikely to get a phone call from her needing the laptop fixed, or viruses removed. I wouldn't mind buying my wife a MAC if she wanted one. I think MACs are great for people that are not as tech savvy such as my Wife (,and no I'm not saying that techies don't like MACs as well.)

[rant]
It does drive me crazy when I go to work on their PC and they lecture me on how if we would switch to MACs all the problems would go away. Really, I mean really???? It's not the PC's fault that you went to that web site, or that you have loaded up your web browser with Bing, Google, or other toolbars for crying out loud!
[/rant]

I have met Windows, Linux, and MAC users that idolize their OS. I don't think any of the Operating Systems are superior. They all have own purpose, and I don't mind running into any of them in the work enviroment. All I ask is that you don't lecture me on how much superior it is and how stupid my company is for using it.

@tpatt100: Yes I do know some techs that will treat their users that way. I try my best never to do that.

erpadmin

SrSysAdmin wrote: »

Working with Macs isn't outside the norm for many of us, myself included. I haven't come across any issues that I haven't been able to figure out, so that isn't the case.


Besides, if people in tech don't love to learn then they picked the wrong industry. I worked in hospitality for several years before coming over to IT so I tend to be quite good with my end users...but if I can't vent on here then where would you suggest?

Venting to my g/f often isn't very effective as she simply doesn't understand the way you guys do!

I've gone on just fine never having to deal with an f'ing MAC, and I'm going on 20 years in between my personal and professional experience. The days of being "the hero" have been long over for me, as I value my free time. I don't ever need to touch a mac and I have no problem telling friends and family I won't ever deal with you mac issue so don't bother me. The only MAC issues I deal with better belong to ARP or some other network issue.....

But that attitude doesn't make me love IT any less than you do. Just means I can focus my energies on stuff I care about in my field, and fixing a MAC just isn't one of them....lmao.

erpadmin

chmorin wrote: »

When I was in desktop support I would troubleshoot the issue, not the end user. Generally speaking most of what end users claim is wrong, but not deliberately. "The Internet does not work." does not mean that your IE is sending you to a proxy that does not exist. My point is I do not focus my attention on the user when working.

However, when the user will not allow me to implement a solution because they believe it couldn't be the answer I have an issue. With MAC users my implementation seems to become more personal to them so they put themselves in the issue, causing me to troubleshoot them AND the issue itself. I have seen this occasionally with windows users too, but much more often with MAC users.

Its not the attitude that I bring to the table, is the attitude THEY bring to the table.

I have made it a personal policy to ignore users after they tell me what their problem is. The "I-should-be-working-in-IT" user pretty much ruined it for every other user. All I want the user to do is tell me what's wrong and if possible show me what error they're getting. After that, it's pretty much ignore-mode, as what they think what the problem is 99% wrong. I just pretty much go "uh huh...mmm hmmm...yeah" and pretty much go about my day. After my 5 minutes of resolving the issue (or in some cases, throwing the issue back at the desk to tell them what they need to do), I explain to the user what really happened in language they understand (or what the help desk has to do...I will only deal with desktop issues if it's related to them not getting to my web application....if it's something like a browser update that's going to take more than 20 minutes, it goes back to the desk with what they need to do to resolve this issue...that's what being a sys admin is all about. ).

Devilsbane

Mojo_666 wrote: »

Doing that is what techs love, what they don't love is people giving them a hard time when they are trying to help....where else in life do you give the person who's help you need a hard time? We are generalising but truth be told MAC users are right up their with sales staff and middle managment with their bad attitudes and over inflated ego's.

I guess middle management and sales staff own a lot of MAC's

If I asked my car mechanic to take a look at my lawn mower engine because it was making a funky noise, I wouldn't expect him to know exactly what it is. (Actually I wouldn't do this in the first place, but lets just assume that I did). I would have an expectation that he would need to look into it and maybe do some research.

Not true with computers. By working in IT, it is largely expected that we know everything there is. Windows, Mac, Linux, Servers, Networking, Virtualization, which is clearly untrue.

I'm not a Mac guy, I have barely used one before. But using my other knowledge and the internet, I have been able to solve a few problems in my time. But that doesn't make me an expert and if you want to get snotty about it then find someone else to help you. (Thankfully I don't run into Mac's at my job. Otherwise I would have to take a different stance on that issue.)

neuropol

Hyper-Me wrote: »

Apple users have bought into a fad and its pretty apparent that most of them can't make decisions on their own.

10 years into the fad on my end.

Most of the folks I know personally in IT have switched to Macs, at least partially, at home. After dealing with Windows issues all day, the last thing you want to do is go home and deal with more. Most are platform agnostic, but some of them are part of the faithful now.

As is true for politics, folks on both extremes are equally annoying.

Devilsbane

neuropol wrote: »

Most of the folks I know personally in IT have switched to Macs, at least partially, at home. After dealing with Windows issues all day, the last thing you want to do is go home and deal with more. Most are platform agnostic, but some of them are part of the faithful now.

As is true for politics, folks on both extremes are equally annoying.

I don't really run into windows issues at home. From time to time something comes up, but if you are having daily, weekly, or even monthly issues then it is probably an ID10T error and the problem exists between keyboard and chair.

neuropol

Devilsbane wrote: »

I don't really run into windows issues at home. From time to time something comes up, but if you are having daily, weekly, or even monthly issues then it is probably an ID10T error and the problem exists between keyboard and chair.

Bear in mind, the last time I used Windows at home was ME. In any event, it sounds like the majority of the hubris here comes from the Windows side to me.

it_consultant

Devilsbane wrote: »

I don't really run into windows issues at home. From time to time something comes up, but if you are having daily, weekly, or even monthly issues then it is probably an ID10T error and the problem exists between keyboard and chair.

Windows (at home) problems are directly correlated to the amount of online 'adult entertainment' consumed. If your like my Dad you never have a problem with the PC because it never touches 'adult entertainment'. Teenage boys (and some girls) are another case entirely.

veritas_libertas

neuropol wrote: »

Bear in mind, the last time I used Windows at home was ME. In any event, it sounds like the majority of the hubris here comes from the Windows side to me.

WoW!

Yeah, I haven't seen to many IT jobs listing MACs.

subl1m1nal

I've been in this situation before at a former gig.

The company hired a marketing guy who happened to be an Apple fanboy. He begged the CEO to let him use his MacBook, and the CEO blessed it. This pissed me off because they didn't even involve me in the conversation.

Needless to say, there were issues with authentication and such that were my fault because it was a windows network. They thought I should know all the answers off the top of my head because I was the IT guy. Pissed me off spending all that time getting it set up. He ended up having to buy a **** ton of extra software to make normal PC things work.

Another thing that cracked me up. He was also a web designer and had permissions to the company webserver (windows IIS). He put all his files in a .html format. He then created a page to link the .htm file over to .html. When I found this out, I was pissed. Instead of asking me for help like "why is my .htm file working but .html does not?", he just fixed it his way. When I confronted him about it, we had a 20 minute argument on how all files need to be .html as a web standard and blah blah blah. A couple of clicks in IIS and I had his stupid .html files working okay. Too stubborn to just leave them as .htm files.

I don't mind supporting Macs, but don't blame the PCs, or the network administrator, when they don't work.

Hyper-Me

neuropol wrote: »

10 years into the fad on my end.

Most of the folks I know personally in IT have switched to Macs, at least partially, at home. After dealing with Windows issues all day, the last thing you want to do is go home and deal with more. Most are platform agnostic, but some of them are part of the faithful now.

As is true for politics, folks on both extremes are equally annoying.

Thats funny, because I go home to my windows HTPC, desktop, my work laptop, and my server all of which run windows and work just fine.

I'd rather work on a windows problem than a OSX one solely for the fact that windows will actually give you information. OSX tries to pretend it didnt do anything wrong, it seems.

Devilsbane

subl1m1nal wrote: »

I've been in this situation before at a former gig.

The company hired a marketing guy who happened to be an Apple fanboy. He begged the CEO to let him use his MacBook, and the CEO blessed it. This pissed me off because they didn't even involve me in the conversation.

Needless to say, there were issues with authentication and such that were my fault because it was a windows network. They thought I should know all the answers off the top of my head because I was the IT guy. Pissed me off spending all that time getting it set up. He ended up having to buy a **** ton of extra software to make normal PC things work.

Another thing that cracked me up. He was also a web designer and had permissions to the company webserver (windows IIS). He put all his files in a .html format. He then created a page to link the .htm file over to .html. When I found this out, I was pissed. Instead of asking me for help like "why is my .htm file working but .html does not?", he just fixed it his way. When I confronted him about it, we had a 20 minute argument on how all files need to be .html as a web standard and blah blah blah. A couple of clicks in IIS and I had his stupid .html files working okay. Too stubborn to just leave them as .htm files.

I don't mind supporting Macs, but don't blame the PCs, or the network administrator, when they don't work.

The current thing going on in my company is that a ton of people went out and bought ipad's and now think they should be able to bring them into work and connect them to the corporate network. I don't understand where the need comes in. We all have computers (either desktops or laptops, some people have both) and anyone that needs one has a blackberry. Why do you need to have an ipad too?

it_consultant

Technet is a thing of beauty, plus msexchange.org and all the other gems that are out there for documentation.

I had one problem with Quickbooks for MAC where the only apparent solution was to zero the drive and reinstall OS. Other than that MAC documentation seems pretty OK. Lacks the third party stuff that Windows has.

rwmidl

Devilsbane wrote: »

The current thing going on in my company is that a ton of people went out and bought ipad's and now think they should be able to bring them into work and connect them to the corporate network. I don't understand where the need comes in. We all have computers (either desktops or laptops, some people have both) and anyone that needs one has a blackberry. Why do you need to have an ipad too?

This is where management needs to enforce whatever IT AUP you have is (ex: only company provided equipment shall be connected to blah blah)..

Devilsbane

rwmidl wrote: »

This is where management needs to enforce whatever IT AUP you have is (ex: only company provided equipment shall be connected to blah blah)..

Well thats how it started. But the company refuses buy a bunch of ipads when what we have works fine. So then they went to "Well then can I just bring my own in?"

Not really sure what is going on with it, but I know that a few people are testing Ipad's with our network to see what happens. People just need to shut up and deal with what they have. I don't care how much you love your ipad. You can do your job just fine and I don't see the need to force IT to spend hundreds (thousands is probably what it will come to when all is said and done) of hours to implement ipad's into the network.

L0gicB0mb508

SrSysAdmin wrote: »

Bonus: Do you use Parallels to run Windows or Bootcamp?

If Macs are so great then why does everybody run Windows on them?


I didn't realize this thread would become so popular...guess I'm not the only one who has had these types of experiences!

Actually I don't use either. I have Fusion installed, but no Windows OS running on it. I guess I'm a diehard fanboi. My netbook is Linux. Now I must confess I have a laptop that is running XP. I only use it for lab stuff though.

Sometimes I'm ashamed I love Apple so much, just because of the smug fanbois that think Steve Jobs is God.

tpatt100

Yeah network capable appliances are becoming a HUGE problem security wise. I am not even sure how the security field is going to address this problem because the way things are headed iPad type devices are probably going to be the norm. I mean I really have no clue how to address this at work because I dont even know how to audit the frigging OS for these devices.

And with Microsoft's next OS they are talking about putting everything on the cloud and they gave the example of what I currently do at home where I can finish on my desktop reading a book on the Kindle PC app, go downstairs to watch my son and pick up where I left off on the Kindle iPad app. Then all my WGU homework is stored in folders based on the class I am taking in my DropBox folder where I can read my PDF notes on my phone if needed.

Its going to get interesting how jacked up security will be in the future.:)

And not sure about the whole "Mac fad" idea. At least Apple is looking forward beyond the desktop as an actual money maker. Microsoft is going to have a hard time competing once everybody adopts open standards and the desktop is just a portal. I think companies will invest more in training to support open source services rather than pay yearly license fees for software.

Reseven

Reading all of this reminded me of something...

subl1m1nal

Devilsbane wrote: »

Well thats how it started. But the company refuses buy a bunch of ipads when what we have works fine. So then they went to "Well then can I just bring my own in?"

You have the security argument on your side. What if somebody brings in iPad X and it has all kinds of malware on it and infects your network. How much time and money will be spent cleaning it up? How much money will it cost to secure these devices? What happens if the employee quits and takes their iPad with sensitive company information on it and sells it to a competitor?

Questions like this tend to shoot down this idea to management.

msteinhilber

Our environment is a bit unique in that we support real estate agents whom bring their own machines to use in their respective office. Sometimes you get a new agent who already owns a mac and sometimes it's an existing agent in the market for something new and they go and buy a mac without asking any questions first.

We have a resource they all use which is only accessible by a Windows computer due to ActiveX being required. The only option for the mac users is to run VMware or Bootcamp or similar. Furthermore, because we have such a small number of mac users and no software licensed to connect remotely to them which is how we assist 99% of our inquiries, we simply do not support the mac period. We will direct them to get Windows running in a dual-boot or virtual instance and we'll set that up for remote access and all of the resources they need but thats it.

It's not uncommon that I get an earful from some avid mac user about how wrong it is that we treat them this way when it's clearly the future and Windows is going away. Nevermind the fact that they would be stuck running Windows for one of the critical resources anyways, which is beyond my control and falls directly in the hands of our local MLS board's team to move to a cross platform code which they are working on at least.

So yea, sometimes I really dislike the mac users. I can somewhat understand where they are coming from though. They are technology stupid like most users, and that's fine - it's why we have jobs. They assume a computer is a computer and will clearly be a bit on the offensive once they learn their piece of hardware they invested a good chunk of change on isn't going to work without more money and more headaches to work through.

wd40

subl1m1nal wrote: »

You have the security argument on your side. What if somebody brings in iPad X and it has all kinds of malware on it and infects your network. How much time and money will be spent cleaning it up? How much money will it cost to secure these devices? What happens if the employee quits and takes their iPad will sensitive company information on it and sells it to a competitor?

Questions like this tend to shoot down this idea to management.

But it is a MAC, it can't have malware.

We have a MAC person at work, he was like "We Have the Time Machine ", I said we have that "almost"in Windows 7.

He said I have a 27" screen with an Nvidia Graphics Card.
I said I have 2 Screens with a bigger Nvidia Graphics Card and it costs 1/2 the price of your shiny MAC

Devilsbane

subl1m1nal wrote: »

Questions like this tend to shoot down this idea to management.

Well apparently it didn't since they are researching the idea, much to my dismay.

rwmidl

wd40 wrote: »

But it is a MAC, it can't have malware.

We have a MAC person at work, he was like "We Have the Time Machine ", I said we have that "almost"in Windows 7.

He said I have a 27" screen with an Nvidia Graphics Card.
I said I have 2 Screens with a bigger Nvidia Graphics Card and it costs 1/2 the price of your shiny MAC

Did they actually say "the Time Machine"?

rwmidl

subl1m1nal wrote: »

You have the security argument on your side. What if somebody brings in iPad X and it has all kinds of malware on it and infects your network. How much time and money will be spent cleaning it up? How much money will it cost to secure these devices? What happens if the employee quits and takes their iPad with sensitive company information on it and sells it to a competitor?

Questions like this tend to shoot down this idea to management.

It's probably management who are the ones jonesing for the iPad.

I'd also wonder how much extra bandwidth these devices will take? More than likely people will want to stream Pandora, Youtube, etc to these devices.

subl1m1nal

Share a few articles with them:

Apple Ships iPods with Windows Virus | Betanews
Mac versus Windows vulnerability stats for 2007 | ZDNet
Hacking Mac OS X and iPhone Payloads Tutorial
markremark: Metasploit adds new keylogger and Mac payloads

Ultimately, its up to management to assess how much risk there is and make a decision based upon it. If they choose to accept the risk, and something happens, you can say "I warned you of this".

subl1m1nal

Another thing to consider is the high cost of the iPads. The iPad is not a product aimed at productivity. Even Jobs has said it's primarily a media consumption device. So its a web-browsing, video watching, book reading iPod. How much of it can they honestly think will be used for work?

Devilsbane

rwmidl wrote: »

I'd also wonder how much extra bandwidth these devices will take? More than likely people will want to stream Pandora, Youtube, etc to these devices.

Youtube is blocked by the proxy. Oddly enough (i just checked) pandora is not.