Some folks need a reality check....

Forsaken_GA

So I was chatting with one of my friends, who's the team lead for the NOC and Helpdesk. Like most other departments, they got permission to hire a few new folks, so he's been sifting through resumes. I've been doing the same thing on my team, so we were having lunch today and compared notes.

It is unbelievable how much folks will doctor their resumes. The NOC is hiring for a few entry level positions, and part of this is basic Linux system administration skills. It's actually the most important part, so the phone screen starts with it, and if the candidate can't pass that, there's no point in going on.

Folks who are listing Linux+ and LPIC certs and 5 years of experience with Linux as an OS on their system couldn't tell the phone screener what load average was. Or how to view the system routing table. Or the arp cache. Or how to view hidden files.

And they listed as their expected salary in the $75k range. The NOC lead was telling me that he's screened hundreds of resumes over the last two weeks, picked out about 30 for phone screens, and every single one is a bust.

I have the same problem on the network side. I get folks who can't talk to me about OSPF LSA's, or BGP attributes, and sometimes, even about how RIP works. Yet they're showing CCNP and years of experience on their resume.

This is the kind of thing that makes it hard for those of us who have legitimately learned the material. Recruiters and Interviewers develop a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to certifications when you show them and then can't pass a phone screen.

If you're presently looking for work, do yourself a huge favor - take another look at your resume, and make sure it accurately reflects your abilities. I understand the desire to make yourself as attractive as possible, but you're honestly not doing yourself any good if you're showing yourself to posses ability you do not actually have. It *will* come out with a savvy interviewer, and you'll have killed any chance at getting the job.

Being honest and up front about what you really can do will go alot farther. If the type of job you're applying for requires a certain skillset you don't possess, then go learn it, don't just spend 20 minutes flipping over a book and maybe a half hour playing with it in a VM or any crap like that, and then list it on your resume. Some companies are willing to take a chance on under experienced folks, particularly if they're honest about it, but you have to be able to do the basics. And if you puff yourself up, and the phone screen can deflate it in under 10 minutes, you've already made yourself suspect and created a trust issue, and thereby harmed your chances.

And for god's sake, make sure your salary requirements are REALISTIC. We're not going to pay our NOC/Helpdesk guys $75k to answer phones, tickets and reset some user passwords every once in awhile.

Priston

Are you scheduling the phone interviews (allowing them time to prepare) or are you just calling them and interviewing right then?

Forsaken_GA

Priston wrote: »

Are you scheduling the phone interviews (allowing them time to prepare) or are you just calling them and interviewing right then?

Our phone screeners contact the applicants, and ask if they're got a few minutes to talk about the job they applied for, or if they'd like to schedule it for some other time. Most people say they're willing to go right then.

And honestly, if you need to prepare for a phone screen with softball questions like it's an exam, you're the wrong candidate for the job. Most of the questions we ask, someone should be able to answer off the top of their head.

thenjduke

I been in the field for a long time and dam 75k for NOC. I will take the job Yeah it is funny alot of the things people have on their resume. I love asking people how layer 1 works and they are like what?

drew726

As a side note, yesterday I had a phone interview for just a regular help desk position and they gave me an impromptu quiz that I totally was not expecting. Kinda basic questions because it is entry level, but the job title says SysAdmin when it's really help desk. I got all of them right and HR forwarded the resume to the operations manager. She called me back two hours later and I have an interview coming up Monday.

phoeneous

Is it lame to say things like "I don't know about BGP Attributes but I could learn it on my home lab"?

Forsaken_GA

phoeneous wrote: »

Is it lame to say things like "I don't know about BGP Attributes but I could learn it on my home lab"?

It would depend. It's a better answer than trying to bullshit. If the job requirements state BGP, but BGP isn't on your resume in the first place, then that would be fine - we had a pretty good idea that your BGP might be weak when we called, but considered the rest of the resume strong enough to give you a look.

If you put BGP on your resume, and you can't name me at least 4 BGP attributes off the top of your head, you should not have BGP on your resume.

Daniel333

Had an ideal, at least on paper candidate. 5 years of experience with Exchange. Certified MCITP: 2010 and MCSE.

Nice enough guy, passed our tier 1 interview. We needed strong exchange skills so I had some AD and Exchange questions...

Me: Explain circular logging, why would you use it?
Him: Never used it.

Me: What sorts of shared storage have you used in the past for clustering?
Him: Never setup a cluster

Me: What is an MX record?
Him: That tells the database what Exchange server it's on.
Me: *dumbfounded*
Him: I actually had that break once. I had to restore the server
Me: ..uhh.. yeah... us too...

Me: Final question, a Outlook Anywhere, RPC over HTTPS connection?
Him: I am aware of that feature, but we never purchased the extra licenses for mobiles devices.
Me: Yeah, uhh.. I just got an email. I have to cut this short. I'll have the boss give you a call sometime tomorrow.. bye..

Another genius I had to interview, HAD to interview. (owners son's friend I was told) Had MCSE and Roxio CD creator on the same line of his resume. I mean, who has Roxio? And who puts it with their MCSE?

Anyhow, lying might get an interview. But won't get you the job.

Best hire ever answered "I don't know."... "I am not sure, but here is an similar technology/situation" and guess what, in his second interview he walked over to me "Hey I looked all that up, good stuff thanks for pointing that out to me."

Turns out, the guy was great.

Forsaken_GA

Daniel333 wrote: »

Best hire ever answered "I don't know."... "I am not sure, but here is an similar technology/situation" and guess what, in his second interview he walked over to me "Hey I looked all that up, good stuff thanks for pointing that out to me."

Turns out, the guy was great.

Yup, I'm ok with folks not knowing the answer to questions, especially in face to face interviews. As I've posted elsewhere, in the in-depth interview, I'm not necessarily looking for skills. Skills can be taught. I'm looking for personality and how your mind works.

However, if you put a technology on your resume, and you can't answer basic questions about it, you've basically lied to me, and that creates an adversarial situation.

As I said, skills I can teach, but that's more akin to putting up the molding, or wallpapering a room. You're the one that has to build the foundation and the four walls.

mikej412

phoeneous wrote: »

Is it lame to say things like "I don't know about BGP Attributes but I could learn it on my home lab"?

Yes -- if you listed BGP as one of your skills or claim experience in your job history (or have a CCNP).

Listing BGP on your resume as a skill requires knowing more than it stands for Border Gateway Protocol -- or calling the Business Partner who setup BGP on your router(s) to make a service call.

If you didn't list BGP on your resume and are only a CCNA.... um, don't say you can learn it on your home lab. Say you haven't had a reason to study BGP YET on your home lab -- and deflect the conversation to something you have worked on (you've at least worked on OSPF or EIGRP, right?). Move the conversation to something you can talk knowledgeably about.

After about 4 or 5 "I don't know that but I'd be willing to learn" answers to questions about skills claimed on a resume I'm usually done with the interview.

If you're an experienced CCNP and don't work in an environment that uses BGP, that's your answer. But hopefully you at least can stammer something about weight being a Cisco Proprietary attribute and maybe mention local preference and MED. If you somehow fit "mandatory" and "transitive" into a sentence with "BGP" you may earn extra credit.

I had a CCNP/CCIP job candidate argue that AS_PATH was NOT a BGP attribute.

SteveLord

I'll take the job. How hard can learning about a penguin be?

powerfool

I dunno. I find that there are certain technical things that are required, but if they can show a basic proficiency and an aptitude to learn, then that is good for me. I probe about hobbies hoping for answer like home remodeling/repair and automotive maintenance; if they can do that, I believe that have an aptitude.

Priston

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Our phone screeners contact the applicants, and ask if they're got a few minutes to talk about the job they applied for, or if they'd like to schedule it for some other time. Most people say they're willing to go right then.

And honestly, if you need to prepare for a phone screen with softball questions like it's an exam, you're the wrong candidate for the job. Most of the questions we ask, someone should be able to answer off the top of their head.

I don't think they need to prepare for the questions. It's just sometimes people get caught off guard. Even though they say they have time to talk, they might be just saying that because they're worried you won't contact them again.

My first phone interview I ever had was from an advertisement on craigslist, I was so excited and nervious at the same time he started asking the interview questions and on the third question he asked me "What do you see yourself doing in the next few years" then I thought to myself "Damn, he didn't tell me who company he works for is or what the position is..." That's just craigslist for you though....

On another note CCNPs who don't use BGP should atleast be able to tell you that BGP is a distance-vector routing protocol even if they are caught off guard. It's a better answer then I don't know. But CCNA, I could understand them drawing a blank.

shodown

Priston wrote: »

I don't think they need to prepare for the questions. It's just sometimes people get caught off guard. Even though they say they have time to talk, they might be just saying that because they're worried you won't contact them again.

My first phone interview I ever had was from an advertisement on craigslist, I was so excited and nervious at the same time he started asking the interview questions and on the third question he asked me "What do you see yourself doing in the next few years" then I thought to myself "Damn, he didn't tell me who company he works for is or what the position is..." That's just craigslist for you though....

On another note CCNPs should atleast be able to tell you that BGP is a distance-vector routing protocol even if they are caught off guard. It's a better answer then I don't know. But CCNA, I could understand them drawing a blank.

We actually dont' accept that as a complete answer. We hope they say path vector. We will take it with some follow up questions.

Priston

shodown wrote: »

We actually dont' accept that as a complete answer. We hope they say path vector. We will take it with some follow up questions.

learn something new every day, I'm still working on CCENT /shrug

EDIT:
is path vector like a subcategory of distance-vector or are they too separate things?

Forsaken_GA

Priston wrote: »

learn something new every day, I'm still working on CCENT /shrug

EDIT:
is path vector like a subcategory of distance-vector or are they too separate things?

distance vector protocols are traced by the number of hops.

in BGP's case, the path vector is how many different AS's it passes through, instead of how many hops it takes. One AS might have 5 hops to transit from one end to the other, one might have 2, BGP doesn't care. Instead, it cares about how many different administrative domains a route has to pass through (smaller is better). This is because BGP largely doesn't care about internal routing. It's entire purpose is to move data between AS's. What each AS does with it while it's in that AS isn't really BGP's concern

shodown

Priston wrote: »

learn something new every day, I'm still working on CCENT /shrug

EDIT:
is path vector like a subcategory of distance-vector or are they too separate things?

BGP kinda uses some rip like hop count through AS's which I think is the reason why people lable it distance vector, but its all based on the attributes that make BGP, BGP. BGP is very simple in a since, but has some very powerful tools that can make a mess of the internet. read the article below for a example

Reckless Driving on the Internet - Renesys Blog

Forsaken_GA

Priston wrote: »

I don't think they need to prepare for the questions. It's just sometimes people get caught off guard. Even though they say they have time to talk, they might be just saying that because they're worried you won't contact them again.

My first phone interview I ever had was from an advertisement on craigslist, I was so excited and nervious at the same time he started asking the interview questions and on the third question he asked me "What do you see yourself doing in the next few years" then I thought to myself "Damn, he didn't tell me who company he works for is or what the position is..." That's just craigslist for you though....

On another note CCNPs who don't use BGP should atleast be able to tell you that BGP is a distance-vector routing protocol even if they are caught off guard. It's a better answer then I don't know. But CCNA, I could understand them drawing a blank.

If you're not ready to talk, and you say you are, that's your own fault. If you tell the phone screener something like "I'd love to, but I'm at a doctor's appointment right now, and I should be called in any minute", most of them will understand and reschedule for later. Or say you're driving and would prefer to have the conversation when you're safely off the road.

If the phone screener is being enough of a pain in the rear to hold that against you, you do not want that job. We require our phone screeners to report the results of the phone screen, and every once in awhile, the screener gets overruled and someone gets a face to face interview, or another phone call anyway. I'm actually trying to get management to approve a policy of recording all the actual phone screens, so that the folks who make the decision on whether or not a face to face is going to happen can make the best decision possible. I'd personally prefer to do my own phone screening instead of passing it off to others, but my day rarely allows for that. I'd love to be able to load recorded phone screens onto my ipod so I could listen to them on the way home.

And again, with the BGP example - If you're not listing BGP on your resume, if you get asked questions about it, with my company anyway, it's understood that you may be weak, and we'll take any answer you give with due consideration. It's the folks who *do* list BGP experience, and then can't answer basic questions about it that earn my ire. If you list BGP experience, and the phone screener asks you to name any 4 BGP attributes, if the only answer you can give is that it's a distance vector protocol, that interview is effectively over. If you don't list BGP experience, and you get asked about it, you should answer that your BGP experience is cursory, since you've not dealt with it in a production environment. I can forgive bad answers or I don't knows to technology that you're not listing, and showing some mental agility in how you answer with I don't know is a good way to gain bonus points. If we ask you about alot of tech you didn't say you were experienced with, and we called you anyway, that's our mistake.

But for anything you *do* say you have experience with, the bad answers are on you. If you're going to list something on your resume, you need to make sure you have enough knowledge to talk intelligently about the fundamentals.

shodown

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

If you're not ready to talk, and you say you are, that's your own fault. If you tell the phone screener something like "I'd love to, but I'm at a doctor's appointment right now, and I should be called in any minute", most of them will understand and reschedule for later. Or say you're driving and would prefer to have the conversation when you're safely off the road.

If the phone screener is being enough of a pain in the rear to hold that against you, you do not want that job. We require our phone screeners to report the results of the phone screen, and every once in awhile, the screener gets overruled and someone gets a face to face interview, or another phone call anyway.

And again, with the BGP example - If you're not listing BGP on your resume, if you get asked questions about it, with my company anyway, it's understood that you may be weak, and we'll take any answer you give with due consideration. It's the folks who *do* list BGP experience, and then can't answer basic questions about it that earn my ire.

If you're going to list something on your resume, you need to make sure you have enough knowledge to talk intelligently about the fundamentals.

Its how we do it. We ask them about there environment and see how much they really know about it. If we see there network was a EIGRP/BGP network. Even with a CCNP we are only expecting them to know the basic' of OSPF. We aren't going to get into setting up Virtual links nd redistribution into another OSPF area unless its specifically mentioned. But we will go hard on the EIGRP/BGP portion. Well not me, one of our smart guys will.

Pratt2

Every day I think to myself that if I could only get an interview I'd have a job.....

Forsaken_GA

shodown wrote: »

Its how we do it. We ask them about there environment and see how much they really know about it. If we see there network was a EIGRP/BGP network. Even with a CCNP we are only expecting them to know the basic' of OSPF. We aren't going to get into setting up Virtual links nd redistribution into another OSPF area unless its specifically mentioned. But we will go hard on the EIGRP/BGP portion. Well not me, one of our smart guys will.

We don't get that in depth with the phone screen. Usually, it's a contractor, or someone in HR, or an intern who's doing the initial phone screen, so they're following the list of questions we give them, with the kinds of answers we're looking for. Have to keep it simple enough so that a phone screener can tell whether or not the person is right or wrong.

Our hiring process is fairly rigorous. If you pass the phone screen, you will sit through a minimum of four face to face interviews (usually 2 a day, on different days), as well as an interview with the hiring manager. The four interviews are usually the department you're applying to, as well as senior folks from the departments that your department works with. Some of them are just looking at your personality, and offering an opinion as to whether or not their department would be comfortable interacting with you, as well as generally testing your knowledge of where your departments overlap (for example, in neteng, we have alot of close contact with the guys who maintain the customer firewalls and IPS's, so you'd be talking to guys from those departments).

The department you're hiring into is usually the toughest interview, because it's brutal. I tend to leave interviewees with the impression that they're fit to use consumer grade linksys gear, and not much else, even if I like them and think they'd be a good fit for the job. I do that on purpose because I absolutely have to be sure the person can handle pressure situations. A network outage has severe consequences on the company's revenue, so I need people that can handle the fact that the company is losing money while they're working on a problem, and not freak out about it, or throw their hands up in frustration and walk away. If you can deal with me in your face and demanding answers quickly, and come up with the right ones (or somewhere in the ballpark at least), you'll probably be ok with a VP screaming at you. My departments newest hire was amazed he got a job offer, he thought for sure that I hated him. He couldn't believe how laid back I really was while on the job.

za3bour

mikej412 wrote: »

Move the conversation to something you can talk knowledgeably about.

That's an excellent advice. Thanks

za3bour

An MCITP with 5 years of experience in Exchange and can't tell what MX record is that's clearly a cheater. I'm ok with asking me about what I've listed on my resume I'm not that ok however with asking me about things that I've not listed, never worked on and not even mentioned in the job requirement.

About Salary thing however, I think everyone would put a number that he/she will clearly not get but it will give a margin you can negotiate with I guess.

edzy

Forgetting how something is done happens..lying is unacceptable though

I remember an interviewer asking me how would i give a user admin rights and i had a complete brain fart and answered it wrong..yet i've done it a million times.

UnixGuy

Some funny answer I got from the BIGGEST bullshitter I've ever met in my life(he has a masters degree in computer science!!):

Me: Have you ever worked with Veritas Volume Manager ?? (he's certified in that product)


Him: YES YES (he actually said yes 2 times, quickly)

Me: Ok can you please Mirror these two disks using Veritas Volume Manager?

Him: I can't do that, but I can "make things happen" with Veritas.

Me: Can you partition a disk in Solaris ?? (he is ceritifed in Solaris)

Him: yes of course

Me: Can you please partition this disk and create a 2 GB volume and mount it? (very basic for a certified person)

Him: No I know things theoritically but not practically.

----

Him: I'm a CCNA & SCNA certified, the material is so easy I finished the SCNA in 2 days !!!!

Me: ???? It took me 6 months....how does a firewall work ?

Him: Mmm no idea.

Me: What's the default gateway ?

Him: I haven't set a gateway before, so I don't remember.

Me: what's the difference between IP Address & port number?

Him: <Blank face>



(it wasn't an interview, the guy's already hired...but he was unable to do his basic tasks...he can only do one thing: talking non-stop).

Essendon

UnixGuy wrote: »

(it wasn't an interview, the guy's already hired...but he was unable to do his basic tasks...he can only do one thing: talking non-stop).

I know some people that were hired when they shouldnt have been because they could talk really well. We have an MCSE at work who a few days ago asked me how to find the MAC address of a dual-homed server. ** dumbfounded **

UnixGuy

mikej412 wrote: »

...Listing BGP on your resume as a skill requires knowing more than it stands for Border Gateway Protocol -- or calling the Business Partner who setup BGP on your router(s) to make a service call.

...

+1

that's the difference between someone who actually worked on a technology, and someone who was only "starring" at the machines and call a service provider whenever there's an alert.

Turgon

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

So I was chatting with one of my friends, who's the team lead for the NOC and Helpdesk. Like most other departments, they got permission to hire a few new folks, so he's been sifting through resumes. I've been doing the same thing on my team, so we were having lunch today and compared notes.

It is unbelievable how much folks will doctor their resumes. The NOC is hiring for a few entry level positions, and part of this is basic Linux system administration skills. It's actually the most important part, so the phone screen starts with it, and if the candidate can't pass that, there's no point in going on.

Folks who are listing Linux+ and LPIC certs and 5 years of experience with Linux as an OS on their system couldn't tell the phone screener what load average was. Or how to view the system routing table. Or the arp cache. Or how to view hidden files.

And they listed as their expected salary in the $75k range. The NOC lead was telling me that he's screened hundreds of resumes over the last two weeks, picked out about 30 for phone screens, and every single one is a bust.

I have the same problem on the network side. I get folks who can't talk to me about OSPF LSA's, or BGP attributes, and sometimes, even about how RIP works. Yet they're showing CCNP and years of experience on their resume.

This is the kind of thing that makes it hard for those of us who have legitimately learned the material. Recruiters and Interviewers develop a healthy amount of skepticism when it comes to certifications when you show them and then can't pass a phone screen.

If you're presently looking for work, do yourself a huge favor - take another look at your resume, and make sure it accurately reflects your abilities. I understand the desire to make yourself as attractive as possible, but you're honestly not doing yourself any good if you're showing yourself to posses ability you do not actually have. It *will* come out with a savvy interviewer, and you'll have killed any chance at getting the job.

Being honest and up front about what you really can do will go alot farther. If the type of job you're applying for requires a certain skillset you don't possess, then go learn it, don't just spend 20 minutes flipping over a book and maybe a half hour playing with it in a VM or any crap like that, and then list it on your resume. Some companies are willing to take a chance on under experienced folks, particularly if they're honest about it, but you have to be able to do the basics. And if you puff yourself up, and the phone screen can deflate it in under 10 minutes, you've already made yourself suspect and created a trust issue, and thereby harmed your chances.

And for god's sake, make sure your salary requirements are REALISTIC. We're not going to pay our NOC/Helpdesk guys $75k to answer phones, tickets and reset some user passwords every once in awhile.

It's actually very difficult to find good network professionals to hire as the market is so bloated. In terms of the CV you have to get the good stuff across but you must never try and pass yourself off as something you are not. People did that 1997 - 2001 and they got hired, blagged it, surfed the web for solutions and tried to hang on. Today you have to have the goods.

I have always been candid in interviews in what I can offer right off the bat and what I need to work on, usually because exposure to a certain implementation or technology in the field may be fairly light. It would take 1000 years to become really competant at everything as each gig only gives you exposure to so much. It's an approach that has served me well. Only once did I get put forward for a job that from the sounds of the technical interview was far out of my range of experience, but I put that down to the recruiter not understanding the customer requirements. The job description seemed doable but in interview it turned out it was deep skills in complex MPLS core design for a mobile carrier. That's not on my CV yet, but is about to be in one years time Interesting interview nontheless.

za3bour

UnixGuy wrote: »

(it wasn't an interview, the guy's already hired...but he was unable to do his basic tasks...he can only do one thing: talking non-stop).

wow

If he can't tell an IP from a Port and doesn't know what gateway is so what the hell is his position? and how in the hell did he pass interviewes and get hired?

mikedisd2

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

However, if you put a technology on your resume, and you can't answer basic questions about it, you've basically lied to me, and that creates an adversarial situation.

I wouldn't saying drawing a blank on a subject is necessarily lying. I've done my share of AD / Exchange work but right now if you asked certain basic questions I might not come with the goods. Right now, I couldn't give you a convincing description about how CAs works even though I've installed/configured them in the past. The memory fades if the technology isn't been worked on all the time. I can refresh on the basics before an interview but I'm just as likely to get tripped on another question. I'm also crap at explaining things.

Turgon

za3bour wrote: »

wow

If he can't tell an IP from a Port and doesn't know what gateway is so what the hell is his position? and how in the hell did he pass interviewes and get hired?

This isn't always the fault of the people looking for work. People need jobs and a lot of people need 70K+ these days. There are a number of problems. Many jobs these days are so outsourced, so virtualised and so hands off that sometimes even basic skills are not developed. Another problem is people constantly looking for a certification to open a door for them. They have their place but all that time and energy spent on them would be better served on your daily work. At the end of the day it is what you can do and what you have done well in the field technically that gets you hired. Sitting around on cruise control at work cranking through more certification guides wont take you very far. You need to be hammering on the doors internally to get yourself involved in more meetings and more meaningful, challenging and impressive work. Get that and you are way too busy to chase more and more qualifications. For me, my early qualifications in MCSE, CCNA and even CCNP were useful levers, but it was really all down to me to put all that selfstudy into context by grabbing as much exposure as I could in the field. Certification teaches you so much, the rest you develop through hardwork in the field. What you have going for you there gets you hired or fired.