Some folks need a reality check....

Forsaken_GA

shaX 07 wrote: »

Can we get this thread back on track? Until this most recent page, this has been one of the better and most useful threads on this forum. Now it is getting flooded with non sense talk about music. No offense to anyone on here, I love music as well but that should be discussed elsewhere, as this thread has been extremely clean and helpful thus far...

Usually when a thread gets derailed, folks have said about all they've got to say hehe. Plenty of folks weighed in with their experiences, and their opinions, and as you can see, they vary greatly.

Hopefully this provided some good insight for those seeking jobs, or soon to be seeking jobs into what goes on in the minds of the people doing the interviewing and hiring.

ilcram19-2

let me just add the i dont think any one remembers everything about single axam or book the have read or take, lets be honest even if we pass the test with 100% doesnt mean that if we take it in 2 weeks we are going to remember everything speacially on what i do alot of the times i have to learn things that im not even interested on, i manage about 50 routers running OSPF and EIGRP as well as VPN,DMVPNS,VTI's, as well as over 60 server NT,2000,2003,2008, 2008r2, exchange 2k3-10, Pixes, ASAs, not adding the overhead of managing user accounts, mailboxes, computers, ETC, and i sometimes forget a few password or ip address of the devices that im trying to connect . my point is that i know how to do all that but i cant remember what LSA stands for, and i dont think i ever would need to enable OSPF or redistributing vpn using RRI or chaging the cost of an interface or path or configuring zone based firewall, somthings u just know how to do and know how they work so you can apply it on the situation that requires it, i cant probably remember an IOS commant to turn on OSPF thanks to the tab key lol

MentholMoose

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

The NOC is hiring for a few entry level positions, and part of this is basic Linux system administration skills. It's actually the most important part, so the phone screen starts with it, and if the candidate can't pass that, there's no point in going on.

Folks who are listing Linux+ and LPIC certs and 5 years of experience with Linux as an OS on their system couldn't tell the phone screener what load average was. Or how to view the system routing table. Or the arp cache. Or how to view hidden files.

And they listed as their expected salary in the $75k range. The NOC lead was telling me that he's screened hundreds of resumes over the last two weeks, picked out about 30 for phone screens, and every single one is a bust.

There's no excuse for most of this, but the high salary requests may be understandable. First, if the job listing has a salary range, then people asking for (presumably) well above the range would be annoying, but I would be surprised if the listing actually has a salary range. Such listings annoy me since I don't have time to go through the application and interview process just to find out the pay is too low, and I get the impression that employers who don't list the range are simply hoping to get someone who will work for cheap. Also, salary ranges are sometimes flexible, for example I've asked for and received offers that exceeded the stated salary range.

Second, while there will be some clueless people who will think that "entry level" IT jobs pay $75K, the listing may not make it clear that this is an entry level position, or it may take a careful reading of the listing to figure that out. Someone who needs a job will be applying for tons of jobs, and won't have the time to try to determine the salary range for every vaguely worded listing. They may just use a site like salary.com and choose a point on the curve, or may just put the salary they want on every application and assume they will be rejected if it's too high.

Lastly, in my own experience, NOC pay varies dramatically. I've worked in a NOC myself and had interviews and offers for other NOC positions in my area, and the pay I've seen has been anywhere from $10 to 40 per hour, and the range for positions I've seen that I'd consider "entry level" has been $10 to 30 per hour. So, I don't think it's accurate to just say something to the effect of "$75K for a NOC job is ridiculous".

EDIT: In any case, nice thread, I'm just nit picking a bit.

ilcram19-2

no and the funny part if you do answer all the question right they get intimidated and would tell you that you over qualify for the position; im pretty sure whoever stared this thread wouldnt hire some that know as much as them or more; it bothers me when people think they are the big sh%$ when they arent any one can be as good as any one

MentholMoose

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

let me just add the i dont think any one remembers everything about single axam or book the have read or take, lets be honest even if we pass the test with 100% doesnt mean that if we take it in 2 weeks we are going to remember everything speacially on what i do alot of the times i have to learn things that im not even interested on

I don't think anyone is saying you should remember 100% of what you study. However you should remember something. If you have a valid CCNA and don't know what the "enable" command does, you probably cheated or otherwise don't have the knowledge one would expect of someone with a CCNA. The examples in the OP really are equivalently simple... on Linux, to view routing table you type "route", or to view the arp cache you type "arp".

Forsaken_GA

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

no and the funny part if you do answer all the question right they get intimidated and would tell you that you over qualify for the position; im pretty sure whoever stared this thread wouldnt hire some that know as much as them or more; it bothers me when people think they are the big sh%$ when they arent any one can be as good as any one

That would be me.

I actually don't make the final hiring decision, I'm just one of the interviewers. The hiring manager decided he values my input, so I get to interrupt my work day in order to talk to a whole mess of people that doctored their resumes, and yet can't answer basic questions about technology that they say they're familiar with.

I wouldn't hire someone who knew as much or more than me, you're correct in that. I don't get to make that decision. I would happily recommend that person for an offer though, so long as their personality wouldn't cause issues within the company or the team.

Now as far as the NOC guys go, I can't speak for anyone else, but they wouldn't disqualify someone for being overqualified - they desperately need people, so they're perfectly happy to hire anyone who actually *IS* qualified, whether exceedingly so or not. Obviously, the risk with hiring someone overqualified for the job is that they'll jump ship in short order, but we're a growing company who believes in upward mobility and actively promotes from within for job openings, so we're willing to take a risk.

My issue is that far too many folks are faking the funk. Hell, the NOC lead dropped by my desk today to talk about an interview earlier today. Somehow this brain surgeon made it past the phone screen.

One of the technologies he listed on his resume was Request Tracker, a ticketing system. Which we happen to use, so it was of interest. So the candidate was asked what version of RT he was familiar with. Couldn't answer. So then he was asked a simple question - what color is RT? (the answer is blue, btw). Candidate wouldn't even hazard a guess.

It's really hard to take candidate complaints of companies being unrealistic on their requirements seriously, when the candidates themselves are essentially lying to us.

ilcram19-2

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

That would be me.

I actually don't make the final hiring decision, I'm just one of the interviewers. The hiring manager decided he values my input, so I get to interrupt my work day in order to talk to a whole mess of people that doctored their resumes, and yet can't answer basic questions about technology that they say they're familiar with.

I wouldn't hire someone who knew as much or more than me, you're correct in that. I don't get to make that decision. I would happily recommend that person for an offer though, so long as their personality wouldn't cause issues within the company or the team.

Now as far as the NOC guys go, I can't speak for anyone else, but they wouldn't disqualify someone for being overqualified - they desperately need people, so they're perfectly happy to hire anyone who actually *IS* qualified, whether exceedingly so or not. Obviously, the risk with hiring someone overqualified for the job is that they'll jump ship in short order, but we're a growing company who believes in upward mobility and actively promotes from within for job openings, so we're willing to take a risk.

My issue is that far too many folks are faking the funk. Hell, the NOC lead dropped by my desk today to talk about an interview earlier today. Somehow this brain surgeon made it past the phone screen.

One of the technologies he listed on his resume was Request Tracker, a ticketing system. Which we happen to use, so it was of interest. So the candidate was asked what version of RT he was familiar with. Couldn't answer. So then he was asked a simple question - what color is RT? (the answer is blue, btw). Candidate wouldn't even hazard a guess.

It's really hard to take candidate complaints of companies being unrealistic on their requirements seriously, when the candidates themselves are essentially lying to us.

alot of the times people look for an oportunity something that gets them stared i understand that the expectations are higher once they add all this knowledge to their resume i've known guys that have all this knowledge that reject to use it beacuse they dont pay them well in the other hand i know other guys that dont have the knowledge but they put 1000% in to it and do better job than the guy with the knowledge would is just depends on peoples attitud i would say about 80%, the information is there if they want to learn i know people with tons of certs that use google every now and then to research stuff i dont think i got in to this job or to the label taht im on with what i knew then lol,
i also put in to consideration that the guy maybe has a family to feed, kids, a mortage, car payment sometimes u got to do what u go to do, i myself i have never lie about what i know and what my skills are but im just looking at the other side on the coin

Forsaken_GA

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

alot of the times people look for an oportunity something that gets them stared i understand that the expectations are higher once they add all this knowledge to their resume i've known guys that have all this knowledge that reject to use it beacuse they dont pay them well in the other hand i know other guys that dont have the knowledge but they put 1000% in to it and do better job than the guy with the knowledge would is just depends on peoples attitud i would say about 80%, the information is there if they want to learn i know people with tons of certs that use google every now and then to research stuff i dont think i got in to this job or to the label taht im on with what i knew then lol,
i also put in to consideration that the guy maybe has a family to feed, kids, a mortage, car payment sometimes u got to do what u go to do, i myself i have never lie about what i know and what my skills are but im just looking at the other side on the coin

Well, sure, but we also have to look at things from the viewpoint of the business. We are a for profit corporation, not a government program or a charity, so anything we do has to make sense from the point of view of benefitting the business.

We also deal with some highly confidential information. The amount of NDA's you have to sign to work here is.. impressive. We deal with financial data, and are regulated like a bank. I had federal auditors in my backyard right up until 2 days before christmas. We also have to deal with HIPPA regulations.

So the people we hire in, even at the entry level, have to be competent to do the job we're asking them to do. The level of access the NOC has is no small thing. Mistakes have a profound effect not only on our company, but on our clients as well.

Hypntick

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Obviously, the risk with hiring someone overqualified for the job is that they'll jump ship in short order, but we're a growing company who believes in upward mobility and actively promotes from within for job openings, so we're willing to take a risk.

And that would be me. That is the shot you have to take, though I will say this spot was slightly misrepresented. Went through the interview and saw the job description. Help desk, not what I wanted to be doing again but i'd heard good things about interior mobility.

Day one, they show us the ropes, password reset city. Mobility is limited to once every 18 months+ due to company policy, would have been nice to know in the interview when I asked about upward mobility. Thus I have an interview Monday for something more appealing so far.

Forsaken_GA

Hypntick wrote: »

And that would be me. That is the shot you have to take, though I will say this spot was slightly misrepresented. Went through the interview and saw the job description. Help desk, not what I wanted to be doing again but i'd heard good things about interior mobility.

Day one, they show us the ropes, password reset city. Mobility is limited to once every 18 months+ due to company policy, would have been nice to know in the interview when I asked about upward mobility. Thus I have an interview Monday for something more appealing so far.

The general requirement is that we like you to stay in the position in which you were hired for at least a year, but there's always some internal baseball you can play to get around that if there's a really good opportunity and you've got the skillset for it. The majority of our managers would rather lose an employee internally than externally, as it's ultimately to the companies benefit to retain talent.

cisco_certs

MentholMoose wrote: »

I don't think anyone is saying you should remember 100% of what you study. However you should remember something. If you have a valid CCNA and don't know what the "enable" command does, you probably cheated or otherwise don't have the knowledge one would expect of someone with a CCNA. The examples in the OP really are equivalently simple... on Linux, to view routing table you type "route", or to view the arp cache you type "arp".

Seriously, a true CCNA its not just about "enable". The current test goes in depth that its impossible for someone to pass NA if you only know enable or even basic commands. Furthermore, NA test is just a basic part of cisco/networking. A person that works in the field/NOC (not the fake noc that only resets pw) knows what im talking about.

Kai123

Doctoring my CV would seem to be the only way to get a entry level IT job interview. I hear alot of recruiters turning down people who have no clue dispite having the certs. Having no experience means no interview, even if I could do the job just as good as anyone else.

My entry level salary expectation is 19k euro (25k dollar). Im terrified that after my CCNA, I will need my A+, MCITP and whatever else just to get an interview passed someone who has nothing and lies on their CV. I would even stay with a company for less pay in years time out of respect for giving me the oppertunity to have my IT career.

Kai.

darkerz

Kai123 wrote: »

Doctoring my CV would seem to be the only way to get a entry level IT job interview. I hear alot of recruiters turning down people who have no clue dispite having the certs. Having no experience means no interview, even if I could do the job just as good as anyone else.

My entry level salary expectation is 19k euro (25k dollar). Im terrified that after my CCNA, I will need my A+, MCITP and whatever else just to get an interview passed someone who has nothing and lies on their CV. I would even stay with a company for less pay in years time out of respect for giving me the oppertunity to have my IT career.

Kai.

I think Kai brings up an amazing point. It's that no matter what the role is, whether it's NOC or Help Desk at Entry level... In a pool of resume's, if one guy has more certs than you or if one guy has even a little more experience than you (Especially if you have none....) or words his resume more generously with many more key words than you, that person will get the interview and you may not.

I have no experience besides 4 years of freelancing custom PC builds and fixing peoples Laptops and Desktops in my area. I went from being a kid who just reformatted and did everything on a case-by-case basis to having a full Windows XP/Vista/7 deployment, imaging, backup and technician lab at home with a support ticket system, a list of contacts and a professional sense of being "Someone". I made 15k~ per year doing this, but I was never once employed officially by anyone from HS into College.

And you know what? Despite my proficiency with fresh installs, migrating user profiles, customizing images and deploying them to client computers, tweaking an OS before and after, providing professional and documented hardware and software support to my clients, having a technician home lab, tool set, workstation, etc... POST cards, automated network hook ups for my clients to automate imaging processes, the works~ Not one place will look or comment on it as long as it's not associated with some... Specific company or even contracting group.

I've met literal "Idiots" who work at Tier 1-2 positions who could not name the orientation of CAT5, 5e, 6, etc. cabling off the top of their heads, specs on any modern technology, proper deductive thinking techniques, etiquette for engaging a client, or even basic A+ and Network+ principals. Hell; they have had hard times explaining how DNS works to me, or even what Ping DOES. But they have "the experience" with some business and are always going to get hired over an aspiring individual, regardless of college, certifications or adaptive knowledge.

It makes a person such as myself incredibly bitter to know that all those efforts in studying, college, freelance, etc. no matter what is going to force me hand to start off somewhere at 8-10 an hour for some box store. Even entry level technician roles all require 2-4 years of experience and BS degree's.

I guess my question would be... What does or can a person do versus someone who.. Who cheats the certifications, who has the "experience" (Even if that means 2 years of racking servers but never doing much beyond plugging wires), who is obviously an inferior candidate but can never be compared because an interview is never landed?

It's one hell of a limbo.

Turgon

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

no and the funny part if you do answer all the question right they get intimidated and would tell you that you over qualify for the position; im pretty sure whoever stared this thread wouldnt hire some that know as much as them or more; it bothers me when people think they are the big sh%$ when they arent any one can be as good as any one

Yes you do get that. At the same time anyone can't be as good as anyone else. People have limits and do well or less well at different things. In the higher eschelons, with good recruitment in place the experience and technical ability is a given in candidate. The choice often then comes down to style and how well someone works to accomplish things and if the role is a good fit.

DevilWAH

I still think that the person I want on my teams is the one who knows 80-90% of the questions asked.

If you can show my that the things you do know about you don't just know but understand.

And I like people wh ocan show me they have a varity of knowlage already, but if there is somethign they dont know about (myself for instance knows nothing of BGP, but quite indepth on EIGRP and OSPF as I have only every really worked on LAN rather than WAN networks) That they either understand the theroy, or I will try to "teach" them on the phone and see how quickly they can pick up the ideas. If some one on the phone can take the ideas they know and demonstrate they can apply them to new ideas, then I know they will be able to fit in.

I find 50% of a new job is learning the new systems and way things are done, and 50% is the technical skills. For me as long as the have the basic skills like knowing there way around devices, if they can show they understand purpose of the technologies they will be working on. Then I am not so conserned if the have used or know specifice command or not.

I think this comes from the fact I learn as I go, and cover a wide varity of technologies. all the time it is happeing that some one comes along and shows me a basic command that I never knew existed or had reason to use before. This does not mean I don't know what I am doing, but when busy at work you learn what you need to know.

At work I need to set up LINUX webservers, so I know how to do that. But I don't specilised in them so things like LINUX route tables I don't really have a clue about how to find the information (thats what google is for).

My first question is to ask what areas they know well, and pick a topic that I also know and then discuss it with them. let them lead me in to it and see what depth there understanding takes them. If some one can discuss a topic and thow in previous projects and stories, and make it feel intresting and spontanious then you know you are on to a winner.

Its only after they have demonistrated confort in there own areas that I bother looking if they have enough other skilsl to fit my teams. Becasue some one who demonstrates they are a quick learner who only has skills in 60% of what I am asking for, may well turn out to be better than a slow inflexible person who has 90% of them.

However haveing said all that, is does still shock me the things people try to get away with on there CV's. One member of my team has a whole list of AD and microsoft stuff he claims to have done in the past, he has worked on fiber switchs, LAN, WAN, etc etc.... And yet he struggles to provision a port??? or set up a printer on his PC??? ( I should mention he started a while before I took over the team )

TNT143

I've turned down jobs or even 'interviews' because although the recruiter found the 'buzz word' on my resume, I didn't know a THING about how they wanted me to use it. I use Sharepoint a lot, get a LOT of "sharepoint developer" job inquiries... I know how to use it, doesn't mean I can put it together... I don't even try!

I once had someone explain the best 'answer' to a question you don't know, "I haven't had any direct experience with it, but I am willing to learn beyond the books". This has helped me tremendously and even got me the current job I have now. They wanted someone who directly listed QA experience, but I didn't 'directly' have QA on my resume. I performed majority of the functions indirectly because it was part of my job, but they looked beyond that because I was willing to be honest about how direct the experience was...

And ok, I've worked on help desks since 2003 and OMG 75k for Tier I and entry level? You're lucky to clear 32-40 (Even in big cities/companies!)!

Hypntick

TNT143 wrote: »

And ok, I've worked on help desks since 2003 and OMG 75k for Tier I and entry level? You're lucky to clear 32-40 (Even in big cities/companies!)!

Where I am now, low end tier 1 support range is around 45 a year. That's in Memphis, which has some of the lowest salary ranges around. People are going to think i'm crazy for trying to pass up on this, but money isn't my motivation. I want the experience and the added duties which I know i'm not going to get here for a while. Where i'm looking at pays about 7k less than here but gives me more hands on, that's just what's important to me.

networker050184

darkerz wrote: »

I guess my question would be... What does or can a person do versus someone who.. Who cheats the certifications, who has the "experience" (Even if that means 2 years of racking servers but never doing much beyond plugging wires), who is obviously an inferior candidate but can never be compared because an interview is never landed?

It's one hell of a limbo.

There is nothing you can do except keep trying. You aren't going to change the fact that employers want experienced people.

You just need to present yourself as best you can and hope someone gives you a shot. Everyone here got their start somehow. Its not impossible.

ilcram19-2

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

Well, sure, but we also have to look at things from the viewpoint of the business. We are a for profit corporation, not a government program or a charity, so anything we do has to make sense from the point of view of benefitting the business.

.

sure lets keep on screwing eachother up for the benefit of the corporation

networker050184

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

sure lets keep on screwing eachother up for the benefit of the corporation

Don't take it so personal man. We are paid to look out for the companies best interest. The better the company does the more I get paid.

ilcram19-2

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

We also deal with some highly confidential information. The amount of NDA's you have to sign to work here is.. impressive. We deal with financial data, and are regulated like a bank. I had federal auditors in my backyard right up until 2 days before christmas. We also have to deal with HIPPA regulations.
.

what i notice alot is that people want to feel important and with a purpuse and that purpose can only be accomplished by them, they want to feel like their life matters and are more important than others it is just a hateful sociaty that we live on hating on each other.

i deal with PCI as well as HIPPA as well is not really a big deal, most of those things you learn as you go
then i guess you will have to pay 75k or more to someone that knows all that they are asking for that position

RouteThisWay

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

sure lets keep on screwing eachother up for the benefit of the corporation

It's not about screwing each other up. It's about hiring someone who can do the job or learn to do the job.

When looking to a fill a position, every candidate is judged on a list of tangible and intangible skills that benefit the company. And yes, I agree with Forsaken here... companies are run for profit. They pay you for your labor and that is it. Anything else they provide is meant as incentive to attract and keep talent.

Tangible skills can be console experience with cisco routers, configuring active directory, etc etc. Skills that can be tested, etc. A person also has intangible skills.. i.e, willing to learn, ability to learn new things, soft skills, trustworthy etc. That's why background checks, drug screens, etc are done. Many times employers will look over shortcomings tangible skills for the intangibles. It happens every day.

No company owes anybody a job. There are more people than jobs at the moment so companies can be picky. It is your job to sell yourself to a company about why you would be a great fit there. And during better economic times, they are more jobs than people and the roles reverse a little bit. Peaks and valleys my friend

In any case, having gainful employment is a privilege not a right. Nobody owes you anything. I wish more people in my generation (early-mid twenties) would understand that the world doesn't owe them 6 figure salaries, great exciting jobs, or any job for that matter. I don't care what degree you have, what school you went to, what you did at your old job, etc. It is up to you to sell yourself and make yourself a valuable asset to the company.

If someone doesn't like that, then start your own business and just hand out jobs to everyone you interview. Because it just isn't fair otherwise

ilcram19-2

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

sure lets keep on screwing eachother up for the benefit of the corporation

nothing personal bro, i know where you come from and i certenly enjoy the benefits that we get from the corporation as well i just think everyone should as well

erpadmin

RouteThisWay wrote: »

No company owes anybody a job. There are more people than jobs at the moment so companies can be picky. It is your job to sell yourself to a company about why you would be a great fit there. And during better economic times, they are more jobs than people and the roles reverse a little bit. Peaks and valleys my friend

In any case, having gainful employment is a privilege not a right. Nobody owes you anything. I wish more people in my generation (early-mid twenties) would understand that the world doesn't owe them 6 figure salaries, great exciting jobs, or any job for that matter. I don't care what degree you have, what school you went to, what you did at your old job, etc. It is up to you to sell yourself and make yourself a valuable asset to the company.

If someone doesn't like that, then start your own business and just hand out jobs to everyone you interview. Because it just isn't fair otherwise

Hands down, best post on this topic (and rep was given). I didn't have nowhere near 100% of the skills asked for when applied for any of my jobs. Anyone that says they did, or knows everything in IT, or doesn't use Google to look up something, is a liar, plain and simple. What gets you a job isn't whether you have "l337" skills in Cisco, Microsoft, etc., etc or if you are a Harvard graduate, or any type of collegiate graduate at all. It's all about whether or not you will make a good fit and are competent/have an aptitude in the job you will be asked to do.

As others have said either in this thread or others, any moron can be trained to do anything technical....even Cisco. The question then becomes...why should YOU be that moron?

It's all about selling yourself....and that's done from the second you get a phone interview. Then a face-to-face interview. (Do you look like a bum, or are you sharp in the suit that you're wearing?) Then how well you can articulate your skills. How well can you show that you'd be a great organizational fit. Did you even do any homework on the company you'll be working for? Did you show that you did in your interview?

Cisco/Microsoft skills aside, the little things that go into getting a job sometimes can be the difference between landing a gig, or still reading job ads.

Hypntick

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

The general requirement is that we like you to stay in the position in which you were hired for at least a year, but there's always some internal baseball you can play to get around that if there's a really good opportunity and you've got the skillset for it. The majority of our managers would rather lose an employee internally than externally, as it's ultimately to the companies benefit to retain talent.

Oh I totally understand and it's great to hear when places promote within. That's one of the things I do look for, I do know my current job is outstanding about it. All the spots they hired for moved up in the company. I just can't rationalize spending 2 years doing the same old help desk stuff, actually less technical stuff than my last help desk of 3 years, to get the "possibility" to move up.

Not to mention, the other job i'm looking at is a direct hire not contract, so benefits!

mikej412

darkerz wrote: »

I guess my question would be... What does or can a person do versus someone who.. Who cheats the certifications, who has the "experience" (Even if that means 2 years of racking servers but never doing much beyond plugging wires), who is obviously an inferior candidate but can never be compared because an interview is never landed?

If you don't have the magic certification that is going to get your resume pulled from a pile, either don't apply for those jobs or apply anyways but don't get your hopes up.

Since small business still hires more people than the mega-corps, if you go door to door in the technology parks you may find one that doesn't care about certifications and who's only requirement for a job is someone who doesn't sit on their sofa waiting for a job to fall in their lap from the Internet.

That idiot at one point had NO experience. If you had applied for the same job 2 years ago you probably would have beaten them out for the job based on your knowledge -- and now you'd have the magic 2 years of verifiable work experience.

If you don't want to start at the bottom -- and you have the skills to back it up -- and you have the people skills of dealing with your customers -- then you should be able to walk into the small Microsoft Business Partners in your area (at least the ones that are big enough to have an office) and demonstrate your people/customer skills by talking your way into a job interview. While the techies may be out racking up the billable hours, you might find the owner (and hiring decision maker) in the office or the Sales Manager (who you could impress with your ability deal with customers). And in smaller companies, even impressing the Office Manager with your drive and determination could get you mentioned to the owner and possibly earn you a callback.

millworx

mikej412 wrote: »

If you don't have the magic certification that is going to get your resume pulled from a pile, either don't apply for those jobs or apply anyways but don't get your hopes up.

Since small business still hires more people than the mega-corps, if you go door to door in the technology parks you may find one that doesn't care about certifications and who's only requirement for a job is someone who doesn't sit on their sofa waiting for a job to fall in their lap from the Internet.

That idiot at one point had NO experience. If you had applied for the same job 2 years ago you probably would have beaten them out for the job based on your knowledge -- and now you'd have the magic 2 years of verifiable work experience.

If you don't want to start at the bottom -- and you have the skills to back it up -- and you have the people skills of dealing with your customers -- then you should be able to walk into the small Microsoft Business Partners in your area (at least the ones that are big enough to have an office) and demonstrate your people/customer skills by talking your way into a job interview. While the techies may be out racking up the billable hours, you might find the owner (and hiring decision maker) in the office or the Sales Manager (who you could impress with your ability deal with customers). And in smaller companies, even impressing the Office Manager with your drive and determination could get you mentioned to the owner and possibly earn you a callback.

Agreed completely. For now all my job interviews have been coming from the web, at least 2 interviews a week, and maybe 4-6 phone screens a week. But if things don't shape up soon, I'm going to be knocking on doors. These small contracts I'm working are not paying enough to keep me afloat. Experience and certs isnt a problem for me, I've got plenty of that, but there is always someone out there slightly better than me for every job, so while I get narrowed down to the last few finalist candidates nothings stuck yet.

Forsaken_GA

Kai123 wrote: »

Doctoring my CV would seem to be the only way to get a entry level IT job interview. I hear alot of recruiters turning down people who have no clue dispite having the certs. Having no experience means no interview, even if I could do the job just as good as anyone else.

You're actually coming back around to one of my points at the start of the thread.

If you doctor your resume, and get an interview, and then you cannot talk to me about the things you've listed on your resume.... the interview did you no good, you're not getting the job. All you've shown me is that you maybe did well at Creative Writing in school. You'd actually have had a MUCH better chance with me if you were honest on your resume - when I got around to giving you a call after dealing with all the folks who are faking the funk, it'd be refreshing to talk to someone who's exactly what they say they were.

Forsaken_GA

sure lets keep on screwing eachother up for the benefit of the corporation

Ok, we need to address this sense of entitlement you seem to feel.

The candidates that I interivew? I don't know them. They're not my friends. They're not my family. I'm not sleeping with them. So they don't automatically gain preferential status. If I recommend the hiring of the wrong person, and that person has a negative effect on the company or my department, that has a negative effect on my livelyhood. I take that very seriously.

We live in a capitalist society. Everyone is expected to make their own way. I'm willing to sit down and talk with anyone who's willing to step up and say they can do the job, but I'm going to make damn sure they can before I accept them as one of my own.

ilcram19-2 wrote: »

i deal with PCI as well as HIPPA as well is not really a big deal, most of those things you learn as you go
then i guess you will have to pay 75k or more to someone that knows all that they are asking for that position

Yeah, do something mentally challenged and let some medical records get compromised. You'll find out just how big of a deal it is.

ltgenspecific

Forsaken_GA wrote: »

The candidates that I interivew? I don't know them. They're not my friends. They're not my family. I'm not sleeping with them. So they don't automatically gain preferential status. If I recommend the hiring of the wrong person, and that person has a negative effect on the company or my department, that has a negative effect on my livelyhood. I take that very seriously.

We live in a capitalist society. Everyone is expected to make their own way. I'm willing to sit down and talk with anyone who's willing to step up and say they can do the job, but I'm going to make damn sure they can before I accept them as one of my own.

+1 Not to pile on here, but I think it's really important folks understand what you just said.