Some folks need a reality check....

Ryan82

Yeah, its amazing how many people fake the funk. I imagine it's only worse today in the state of the economy with people desperate to find work.

Unfortunately the IT industry will always be riddled with people that maintain an alphabet soup of certifications behind their name that don't understand the fundamentals of the material they are certified in.

Whatever, they usually get found out pretty quick. We let two go a few months back. I mean how can you honestly list CCNP, CCSP, and CCVP on your resume and not be able to build a crossover cable and slap a management IP on a switch? F'ing amazing.

Turgon

Ryan82 wrote: »

Yeah, its amazing how many people fake the funk. I imagine it's only worse today in the state of the economy with people desperate to find work.

Unfortunately the IT industry will always be riddled with people that maintain an alphabet soup of certifications behind their name that don't understand the fundamentals of the material they are certified in.

Whatever, they usually get found out pretty quick. We let two go a few months back. I mean how can you honestly list CCNP, CCSP, and CCVP on your resume and not be able to build a crossover cable and slap a management IP on a switch? F'ing amazing.

Its an enormous problem, the last two companies I worked for expressed serious concerns about certification in general. CCNPs that clearly dont understand how to do networking. MCSE's that dont know how to partition a disk and install windows properly. The industry needs competant people at a minimum, and certainly good people. There is a disconnect from the reality of work and the expectation of candidates. The problem for the candidates is they get interviewed by timeserved people like myself who have been around and had to get through years of being able to get stuff done independently with nowhere to hide. But again, I think the lack of thrown in at the deep end opportunities these days doesn't help. Far too many people are stuck on helpdesk getting over qualified and have never had their hands on actual equipment.

za3bour

Turgon wrote: »

This isn't always the fault of the people looking for work. People need jobs and a lot of people need 70K+ these days. There are a number of problems. Many jobs these days are so outsourced, so virtualised and so hands off that sometimes even basic skills are not developed. Another problem is people constantly looking for a certification to open a door for them. They have their place but all that time and energy spent on them would be better served on your daily work. At the end of the day it is what you can do and what you have done well in the field technically that gets you hired. Sitting around on cruise control at work cranking through more certification guides wont take you very far. You need to be hammering on the doors internally to get yourself involved in more meetings and more meaningful, challenging and impressive work. Get that and you are way too busy to chase more and more qualifications. For me, my early qualifications in MCSE, CCNA and even CCNP were useful levers, but it was really all down to me to put all that selfstudy into context by grabbing as much exposure as I could in the field. Certification teaches you so much, the rest you develop through hardwork in the field. What you have going for you there gets you hired or fired.

But you can't really build smoething if the base is just empty, If you don't know what a gateway is then what are you doing in IT field?

Are you ok with someone who said has 5 years experience in Exchange and doesn't know what MX record is

? this is very basic if you don't know it I don't think you did work with exchange for 5 years I just think you're either a liar or a cheater and I can't tell which one is worse.

Geetar28

Turgon wrote: »

This isn't always the fault of the people looking for work. People need jobs and a lot of people need 70K+ these days. There are a number of problems. Many jobs these days are so outsourced, so virtualised and so hands off that sometimes even basic skills are not developed. Another problem is people constantly looking for a certification to open a door for them. They have their place but all that time and energy spent on them would be better served on your daily work. At the end of the day it is what you can do and what you have done well in the field technically that gets you hired. Sitting around on cruise control at work cranking through more certification guides wont take you very far. You need to be hammering on the doors internally to get yourself involved in more meetings and more meaningful, challenging and impressive work. Get that and you are way too busy to chase more and more qualifications. For me, my early qualifications in MCSE, CCNA and even CCNP were useful levers, but it was really all down to me to put all that selfstudy into context by grabbing as much exposure as I could in the field. Certification teaches you so much, the rest you develop through hardwork in the field. What you have going for you there gets you hired or fired.

This is one of the best (straight to the point) posts I have seen on TE. It's hard to admit it but I definitely recognize myself in your description. I think so many people (myself included) turn to certs 1) because the situation/job we're at will never be opened up to allow us to get hands on experience past a certain point and 2) we are hoping that by doing the certs it will show initiative and a willingness /eagerness to learn which will open doors in the future.

I remember in the interview I had for my current job being asked about stuff I was clueless about.. My response was "to be perfectly honest I have never worked on that, but I have done this and this....and if given the chance, I am certain I could learn/perform just fine". Everything can be learned..we're talking networks, not NASA.

I think another issue today is that the guys at the top never feel like they can delegate any higher level schtuff down. They end up doing EVERYTHING, and are as busy as sh*t...never having the time (or let's face it) willingness to show anyone lower on the totem pole anything. I believe some of that stems from the fear that doing so would mean they could be replaced. And also, because they want to avoid mistakes. I would kill (well maybe not kill, maybe just maim..ha ha) for the chance to even gopher for a few weeks with the domain admin at our corporate office (even though he can sometimes be a sh*#head).

I've actually put certification goals on the back burner for now. I'm still working on them, just not as intensely. Currently I am trying to brush up and be more proficient with Access of all things, cause we use ALOT of Access DB's at work. I doubt it will help with anything more than me being more confident with DB's. But until someone at the top either has a change of heart, gets hit by a bus, or I find another opportunity I guess that's all I can do. I may be looking at it from the wrong perspective...but we'll see.

za3bour

Geetar28 wrote:

I think another issue today is that the guys at the top never feel like they can delegate any higher level schtuff down. They end up doing EVERYTHING, and are as busy as sh*t...never having the time (or let's face it) willingness to show anyone lower on the totem pole anything.

This is very well said indeed.

N2IT

drew726 wrote: »

As a side note, yesterday I had a phone interview for just a regular help desk position and they gave me an impromptu quiz that I totally was not expecting. Kinda basic questions because it is entry level, but the job title says SysAdmin when it's really help desk. I got all of them right and HR forwarded the resume to the operations manager. She called me back two hours later and I have an interview coming up Monday.

System admin advertisement but it's help desk. Sounds like the reverse of what Forsaken is talking about.

@Forsaken I think a lot of this wouldn't happen if employers wouldn't ask for the moon when you only need about 40% of what the requirements are asking for. Obviously I am not specifically calling you out on your job, but I can see why people would extend the truth. I do admit that some of your descriptions sounds more like bold face lies.

phantasm

This post was one of the best I've seen. Case in point, we had an individual interview for a NOC job in Tier 1. The applicants background was 8yrs in the helpdesk with no networking experience or certifications. He wanted $80k. Denied.

It's a sad state of affairs but when you consider that people are fearful for their jobs and are not willing to teach others, it creates a pretty nasty situation where everyone becomes entrenched. No upward mobility, only outward.

N2IT

phantasm wrote: »

This post was one of the best I've seen. Case in point, we had an individual interview for a NOC job in Tier 1. The applicants background was 8yrs in the helpdesk with no networking experience or certifications. He wanted $80k. Denied.

It's a sad state of affairs but when you consider that people are fearful for their jobs and are not willing to teach others, it creates a pretty nasty situation where everyone becomes entrenched. No upward mobility, only outward.

+1

You have knowledge silos everywhere. It pisses me off to be honest. You'll have a guy in tier 1 or 2 in a help desk and he or she will offer to stay late or come in early to mirror a higher level employee and that get's denied.

That type of $#!t makes me sick.

Turgon

za3bour wrote: »

But you can't really build smoething if the base is just empty, If you don't know what a gateway is then what are you doing in IT field?

Are you ok with someone who said has 5 years experience in Exchange and doesn't know what MX record is

? this is very basic if you don't know it I don't think you did work with exchange for 5 years I just think you're either a liar or a cheater and I can't tell which one is worse.

There are lots of people working in the IT field who dont know what a gateway is, and many of them earn more money than the best Exchange operator you can hire. Like I said passing yourself off as something you are not is fatal these days and anyone with 5 years experience with Exchange who doesn't know what an MX record is might be able to setup mailboxes but do little else. You wouldn't want them migrating or designing new hosted mail infrastructure.

Turgon

phantasm wrote: »

This post was one of the best I've seen. Case in point, we had an individual interview for a NOC job in Tier 1. The applicants background was 8yrs in the helpdesk with no networking experience or certifications. He wanted $80k. Denied.

It's a sad state of affairs but when you consider that people are fearful for their jobs and are not willing to teach others, it creates a pretty nasty situation where everyone becomes entrenched. No upward mobility, only outward.

There's a lot of that about. Some people have a way to go before retirement and settle for what they have. They are not moving up anymore and certainly not interested in doing anything they *think* might prevent them from hanging on like skilling up people around them. This is particularly bad in operations teams. I managed to avoid to this by moving from operations to design eight years ago. Never looked back. When you are forced out consider a move out of operations into a junior design capacity. I find there is much more mobility in the design/architect space. The operations space is being crushed, reduced, dumbed down, devalued financially, the few operations people are overworked and the genre is top loaded with management and process hippies.

Krusty_47

I can't agree more. I am one of those people who are stuck in a helpdesk position ad can't get any hands on experience with anything. I ask my supervisor and manager at least monthly about more hands on work and availability of learning outside of work with someone. They always say you're the first on the list forsomething like that but nothing ever materializes. Which drives me nuts. Plus it wil leave them short staffed without a tenured rep to train new people when I leave. I dn't think companies realise that once things turn around that they are expendable and not the other way around. If you have an employee that is asking for more hands on experience that person should b developed not ignored.

Turgon

Krusty_47 wrote: »

I can't agree more. I am one of those people who are stuck in a helpdesk position ad can't get any hands on experience with anything. I ask my supervisor and manager at least monthly about more hands on work and availability of learning outside of work with someone. They always say you're the first on the list forsomething like that but nothing ever materializes. Which drives me nuts. Plus it wil leave them short staffed without a tenured rep to train new people when I leave. I dn't think companies realise that once things turn around that they are expendable and not the other way around. If you have an employee that is asking for more hands on experience that person should b developed not ignored.

Its a problem I noticed circa 2002. With everything being rationalised and carved up I feared for the new people entering the field. They just wouldn't get the exposure and the chances that I had to do things. Helpdesk is a flytrap these days. Ideally you would shortcircuit it completely and get on the fast track. But if you have to do it, get in, get on and get out. I don't think anymore than one year is necessary unless you plan on being a helpdesk supervisor or manager.

Krusty_47

I've been there a year and I am busting my hump to get out. I can undstand the OP's point for sure and don't want to side track the post at all but the point does relate. How can you get a job in something you know you can do but can't get any real world experience because no one is willing to just drop you in on a team of great people and let you learn. I realize that some people are liars and cheats but I'm not. I just want to be given a chance to prove myself in something larger than helpdesk.

Turgon

Krusty_47 wrote: »

I've been there a year and I am busting my hump to get out. I can undstand the OP's point for sure and don't want to side track the post at all but the point does relate. How can you get a job in something you know you can do but can't get any real world experience because no one is willing to just drop you in on a team of great people and let you learn. I realize that some people are liars and cheats but I'm not. I just want to be given a chance to prove myself in something larger than helpdesk.

Helpdesk at the Enterprise level is something of a hellhole. Primarily people are hired there to provide a buffer. The options to move up can be very limited indeed. You need to do whatever you can to find upward or more interesting lateral moves within the company. If it's not happening its time to find another job on the grounds that you been there, done that and need a new challenge. There are people starving to death in helpdesk handing over a chunk of their hard earned wages to training companies while they rack up MCSE, CCNP, CCVP. It isn't doing them any good. You need practical experience to get into core support teams, so try small shops (a few of them haven't been assimulated by the borg just yet), service providers and solution providers.

Geetar28

Turgon wrote: »

..... get in, get on and get out. I don't think anymore than one year is necessary unless you plan on being a helpdesk supervisor or manager.

The problem many are having is the part in bold. The junior/mid lievel jobs are like vapor...I rarely see anything advertised in this range. Businesses want a master or a slave...nothing in between. And they want to pay the master like a slave. I agree that after a year on the helpdesk, most are ready to move on. But it's funny that the only Network Analyst II position at my company is held by a dude that has been in IT for freaking 20 years....all the rest of us are level I, with no hope of progressing. And there are basically 2 guys at the top of the chain.

After speaking with one of my counterparts at anther division (a lady that is super knowlegeable and has been with the co. 15 years) it basically boils down to finding a different co. She does exactly what I do, and is just as frustrated. But due to family/home situation she can't just up and find something else. I am starting to find myself in the same situation...and it is scary.

I am not looking to be top dawg right now (may never want it)....but damn it's frustrating not to see a path up without moving out. I think that the smaller the business the more opportunity one has to get hands on.

Krusty_47

Oh I completely understand that. I used to work or Cox communications in tech support and I've been riding my boss for more hands on. I would have to move to our corp offices in dallas to get it and I can't do that right now.

I've been applying for whatever jobs I can find that are anything close to what I know I can do and that would provide challenge.

Turgon

Geetar28 wrote: »

The problem many are having is the part in bold. The junior/mid lievel jobs are like vapor...I rarely see anything advertised in this range. Businesses want a master or a slave...nothing in between. And they want to pay the master like a slave. I agree that after a year on the helpdesk, most are ready to move on. But it's funny that the only Network Analyst II position at my company is held by a dude that has been in IT for freaking 20 years....all the rest of us are level I, with no hope of progressing. And there are basically 2 guys at the top of the chain.

After speaking with one of my counterparts at anther division (a lady that is super knowlegeable and has been with the co. 15 years) it basically boils down to finding a different co. She does exactly what I do, and is just as frustrated. But due to family/home situation she can't just up and find something else. I am starting to find myself in the same situation...and it is scary.

I am not looking to be top dawg right now (may never want it)....but damn it's frustrating not to see a path up without moving out. I think that the smaller the business the more opportunity one has to get hands on.

Which is presicely why I moved from operations to design in 2003, but its a moot point because my operations experience was very good because back then all this stuff wasn't entrenched and you had the opportunities. I could see the way it was going. I was right. Add to which the whole operations space can be carved up at anytime by a piechart at headoffice. Outsource.

People whine about being jack of all trades but I think a few years doing that at a smaller shop will help your options when you knock on the door of enterprise roles. There are timeserved network engineers in enterprise that dont work much with BGP. At a smaller shop you *might* get that. I was lucky, I had 7206VXRs, full BGP table, network redesign to do back in the day.

Geetar28

Turgon wrote: »

It isn't doing them any good. You need practical experience to get into core support teams, so try small shops (a few of them haven't been assimulated by the borg just yet), service providers and solution providers.

I must've been typing my post up while you posted..ha ha.

I plan on going for MCITP:SA but after that...I feel that I will be done with certs for a good while. Not done with learning/reading obviously, but definitely done with testing. I wouldn't feel fully comfortable going for the EA or a CCNP without good solid hands-on. If any of you guys at the top need someone to grab you a coffee and wouldn't mind a little teaching in return, by all means let me know. A couple of weeks with someone at the top or hell even in the middle (if it exists anywhere) would be much more valuable and eye opening than working on certs for months and months.

I ask those of you in hiring positions, what is it you look for in your next junior admin.? How would you go about moving up in this climate? If not "certing up" how would you show that you are ready for the next step?

Turgon

Geetar28 wrote: »

After speaking with one of my counterparts at anther division (a lady that is super knowlegeable and has been with the co. 15 years) it basically boils down to finding a different co. She does exactly what I do, and is just as frustrated. But due to family/home situation she can't just up and find something else. I am starting to find myself in the same situation...and it is scary.

Not everyone can relocate. It sometimes isn't practical on a financial level, and on a social level if you have ties and dependents can be devastating, old parents to care for, sick relatives, kids in school. The problem is the work *moves*. If you are unable to follow it there will be local hires wherever it is going.

Turgon

Geetar28 wrote: »

I must've been typing my post up while you posted..ha ha.

I plan on going for MCITP:SA but after that...I feel that I will be done with certs for a good while. Not done with learning/reading obviously, but definitely done with testing. I wouldn't feel fully comfortable going for the EA or a CCNP without good solid hands-on. If any of you guys at the top need someone to grab you a coffee and wouldn't mind a little teaching in return, by all means let me know. A couple of weeks with someone at the top or hell even in the middle (if it exists anywhere) would be much more valuable and eye opening than working on certs for months and months.

I ask those of you in hiring positions, what is it you look for in your next junior admin.? How would you go about moving up in this climate? If not "certing up" how would you show that you are ready for the next step?

You are already in the right ballpark in terms of attitude. When the telco's crashed at the beginning of the last decade everyone wanted a floor sweeping NOC job. You need to settle in and be someone's ***** for a while, be very helpful and the opportunities come along.

Geetar28

Turgon wrote: »

Not everyone can relocate. It sometimes isn't practical on a financial level, and on a social level if you have ties and dependents can be devastating, old parents to care for, sick relatives, kids in school. The problem is the work *moves*. If you are unable to follow it there will be local hires wherever it is going.

This is exactly what I am working with.. We just found out my wife is pregnant (our third) and the idea of moving my other two girls out of school, and my wife away from her frieds etc..for a job just seems wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am glad I have the job I have...I'm in IT, I get to use my brain, I get to sip hot cocoa and sit in a warm office looking out the window when it's freaking cooooold out. I don't want to come across like a whiny [EMAIL="a@#hole"]a@#hole[/EMAIL]. (I hate listening to whiners.) It's just really hard to see any progression up.

My simplistic understanding of design is that it is more for contract work. I would think that there is ALOT of traveling etc..maybe I'm wrong (it happens from time to time..lol) What would a starting point for design work be or look like?

Bl8ckr0uter

Geetar28 wrote: »

.


I think another issue today is that the guys at the top never feel like they can delegate any higher level schtuff down. They end up doing EVERYTHING, and are as busy as sh*t...never having the time (or let's face it) willingness to show anyone lower on the totem pole anything. I believe some of that stems from the fear that doing so would mean they could be replaced. And also, because they want to avoid mistakes. I would kill (well maybe not kill, maybe just maim..ha ha) for the chance to even gopher for a few weeks with the domain admin at our corporate office (even though he can sometimes be a sh*#head).

This is extremely true +1 and +rep.

At my job we have two admins that basically run the IT department. I have already accepted the fact that I am the lesser (JR) of the two. No problem. The guy has 15 years of experience to my 5. That's cool. But one thing he does that I cannot stand is trys to trample on all of my projects and rather than interject his knowledge he just says "I can do it" or "Let me take a look" etc. I basically have to push him back like "I got this". Then he complains that he always has too much to do but he won't teach me the basic stuff. Or he feels like I cannot do the basic stuff because its "complicated" like build servers on the SAN in the ESX environment. It isn't hard, I have done it before but because he has things set up a certain way and he doesn't want to tell how he has them set up, he just leaves it as, "I'll take care of it"

Every SR person I have worked with has been a protectionist. I've managed to make a few give me the info that I want/need whether they knowingly did it or not but usually that involves trickery and I honestly hate to do that lol. I just want to be mentored by a person who doesn't see me as a threat or is "too busy".

millworx

I couldnt agree more with you that people need a reality check. I think all this stuff is only fueled harder by the fact the economy is in the ****, and there are more people looking for tech jobs than are available.

I just recently did 2 interviews at a company where the HR lady told me they were using a recruiter and were just tired and decided to hire direct because the candidates they kept sending where full of crap. Trumping up their resumes.

Now I also agree with what the other poster was saying about forgetting. I mean for me I know if I don't use it I lose it. I've done many of exchange setups, RPC over HTTPS, etc. And while I could easily say what an MX record is. Off the top of my head I couldnt tell you how to setup RPC over HTTPS. Can I do it? Yes, because I've done it many times! Do I remember exactly? No it's been about 3 years since my last setup.

And that's the way it is for me and a lot of things. And just because I forgot it due to lack of use, does not mean I can't pick it up in a second by just refreshing myself.

SO if i was asked those questions about exchange in an interview, yeah I'de probably bomb it hard, but can I do it, yes I can.

Turgon

Geetar28 wrote: »

This is exactly what I am working with.. We just found out my wife is pregnant (our third) and the idea of moving my other two girls out of school, and my wife away from her frieds etc..for a job just seems wrong. Don't get me wrong, I am glad I have the job I have...I'm in IT, I get to use my brain, I get to sip hot cocoa and sit in a warm office looking out the window when it's freaking cooooold out. I don't want to come across like a whiny [EMAIL="a@#hole"]a@#hole[/EMAIL]. (I hate listening to whiners.) It's just really hard to see any progression up.

My simplistic understanding of design is that it is more for contract work. I would think that there is ALOT of traveling etc..maybe I'm wrong (it happens from time to time..lol) What would a starting point for design work be or look like?

The service providers havd dedicated design teams. It breaks out into PreSales - Design (TA's) - Service Management - Operations and Support. The further down you are on that sentance the bigger the **** sandwich.

I completely understand the personal dimension here. Its something completely lost on people sold on the notion of moving to find either work or a better job. I recall one poster on another board years ago giving an answer to every problem preventing someone from relocating. They just didn't get it. Sometimes it just isn't practical to move or to spur on your personal ambitions and you just have to get what you can in the locale because of dependants. In the song 'Fast Car', she quit school to look after her dad. It happens.

In terms of your personal circumstance, all I can say is find a balance, because once you have family that determines a lot of your reasonable, practical and sensible choices.

Turgon

Bl8ckr0uter wrote: »

This is extremely true +1 and +rep.

At my job we have two admins that basically run the IT department. I have already accepted the fact that I am the lesser (JR) of the two. No problem. The guy has 15 years of experience to my 5. That's cool. But one thing he does that I cannot stand is trys to trample on all of my projects and rather than interject his knowledge he just says "I can do it" or "Let me take a look" etc. I basically have to push him back like "I got this". Then he complains that he always has too much to do but he won't teach me the basic stuff. Or he feels like I cannot do the basic stuff because its "complicated" like build servers on the SAN in the ESX environment. It isn't hard, I have done it before but because he has things set up a certain way and he doesn't want to tell how he has them set up, he just leaves it as, "I'll take care of it"

Every SR person I have worked with has been a protectionist. I've managed to make a few give me the info that I want/need whether they knowingly did it or not but usually that involves trickery and I honestly hate to do that lol. I just want to be mentored by a person who doesn't see me as a threat or is "too busy".

I must just be a nice guy then. Personally I like handing things over when I trust an individual. It's nice to help them develop and by managing things out I can move on to fry bigger fish. There is no point being the fiddler when your role demands you to lead an entire orchestra. Besides, compared to some of the people I work with who put in 60+ hours a week on a narrow focus, they are best placed to take care of the detail.

Turgon

millworx wrote: »

I couldnt agree more with you that people need a reality check. I think all this stuff is only fueled harder by the fact the economy is in the ****, and there are more people looking for tech jobs than are available.

I just recently did 2 interviews at a company where the HR lady told me they were using a recruiter and were just tired and decided to hire direct because the candidates they kept sending where full of crap. Trumping up their resumes.

Now I also agree with what the other poster was saying about forgetting. I mean for me I know if I don't use it I lose it. I've done many of exchange setups, RPC over HTTPS, etc. And while I could easily say what an MX record is. Off the top of my head I couldnt tell you how to setup RPC over HTTPS. Can I do it? Yes, because I've done it many times! Do I remember exactly? No it's been about 3 years since my last setup.

And that's the way it is for me and a lot of things. And just because I forgot it due to lack of use, does not mean I can't pick it up in a second by just refreshing myself.

SO if i was asked those questions about exchange in an interview, yeah I'de probably bomb it hard, but can I do it, yes I can.

There is a lot in what you say. To be honest my experience stands up well. I was up all night reading complicated networking books in the late nineties. But if someone really wants to catch me out with minutia they probably will. Yes, we should be interviewing on fundamentals, but it's somewhat lazy and myopic to judge someone based on a bunch of toot like that. Configuring a lot of things these days isn't that difficult. We should be assessing capabilities more and getting people to talk about situations and solutions at work.

aethereos

Look, it goes both ways. As an employer I'd expect my guys to know their technical stuffs, but the focus on this thread is too one-sided. Technical skills (like Turgon stated above) are not difficult to teach and learn. You can always teach an old dog new tricks; why get all fussed up in arms because 30 of your applicants can't tell you what BGP is? WTF? Do you think guys like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg know everything there is to know about computer? No!

Some of you guys say 'but this is clearly for a NOC job' --- yeah, I know --- but as any experienced manager knows, you wanna pick the right people for your team based on their soft skills...as in, can you really trust them to 1) stay awake between 9 PM - 6 AM? 2) do their job, 3) be a crucial part of the team? 4) be of at least average intelligence and can learn what BGP is? If yes, then give him job and teach him what BGP is and how it works --- there's always a wiki for that!

All I'm trying to say is --- many employers now act like they're Gods and ask for too many things. Right now, my boss is looking for someone to run our translational medicine department, so on the job description, an ideal candidate should have: 1) M.D, 2) Ph.D., 3) MBA 4) Speaks fluent Russian and English, and preferably French and German. And that's just the basics. We haven't even asked if the guy/gal can get along with our people. How many people do you guys know speak more than two languages? How many more hold all those degrees, and have managerial experience?

Granted, this job pays nearly $300k/year....but that's still asking too much.

You have to take the context of today's economy in to consideration; million of people are w/o jobs, so they naturally swarm any job opening. I wouldn't fuss over any "reality check" just because they can't tell you what a gateway is --- look at yourself and ask if you could tell the difference between a potential "good worker" vs. "great worker" ??? How good are you at seeing people's potentials?

IT people aren't known for their social skills, but that's more crucial than any other skills under the sun. Just ask Andrew Carnegie, the billionaire of the last century who paid Charles Schwab $1 million/year salary early 1900's when making $500/week was considered to be rich. Schwab acknowledged he didn't know as much about investment and banking as the people who worked for him; but he was able to make his boss money by building his company into a multi-billion dollar company it is today. It's leadership and vision that made him successful. The same principles still apply today.

Relax, the right guy will come along

Turgon

aethereos wrote: »

Look, it goes both ways. As an employer I'd expect my guys to know their technical stuffs, but the focus on this thread is too one-sided. Technical skills (like Turgon stated above) are not difficult to teach and learn. You can always teach an old dog new tricks; why get all fussed up in arms because 30 of your applicants can't tell you what BGP is? WTF? Do you think guys like Bill Gates and Mark Zuckerberg know everything there is to know about computer? No!

Some of you guys say 'but this is clearly for a NOC job' --- yeah, I know --- but as any experienced manager knows, you wanna pick the right people for your team based on their soft skills...as in, can you really trust them to 1) stay awake between 9 PM - 6 AM? 2) do their job, 3) be a crucial part of the team? 4) be of at least average intelligence and can learn what BGP is? If yes, then give him job and teach him what BGP is and how it works --- there's always a wiki for that!

All I'm trying to say is --- many employers now act like they're Gods and ask for too many things. Right now, my boss is looking for someone to run our translational medicine department, so on the job description, an ideal candidate should have: 1) M.D, 2) Ph.D., 3) MBA 4) Speaks fluent Russian and English, and preferably French and German. And that's just the basics. We haven't even asked if the guy/gal can get along with our people. How many people do you guys know speak more than two languages? How many more hold all those degrees, and have managerial experience?

Granted, this job pays nearly $300k/year....but that's still asking too much.

You have to take the context of today's economy in to consideration; million of people are w/o jobs, so they naturally swarm any job opening. I wouldn't fuss over any "reality check" just because they can't tell you what a gateway is --- look at yourself and ask if you could tell the difference between a potential "good worker" vs. "great worker" ??? How good are you at seeing people's potentials?

IT people aren't known for their social skills, but that's more crucial than any other skills under the sun. Just ask Andrew Carnegie, the billionaire of the last century who paid Charles Schwab $1 million/year salary early 1900's when making $500/week was considered to be rich. Schwab acknowledged he didn't know as much about investment and banking as the people who worked for him; but he was able to make his boss money by building his company into a multi-billion dollar company it is today. It's leadership and vision that made him successful. The same principles still apply today.

Relax, the right guy will come along

Yes very good points right there. Some people know how to configure all kinds of things. That doesn't necessarily mean they are right for my team.

ibcritn

I have always put more value in someone's motivation to learn then what they know. I can totally agree that if they list a skill on their resume and can't really talk anything about it...yea that's a bad sign.

The motivation can be hard to judge. Another problem is most college students graduating with little to no experience think they will be net/sys admins and feel they know all there is to know about networking list a whole bunch of crap on their resume, but really have A LOT of gaps.

Turgon

ibcritn wrote: »

I have always put more value in someone's motivation to learn then what they know. I can totally agree that if they list a skill on their resume and can't really talk anything about it...yea that's a bad sign.

The motivation can be hard to judge. Another problem is most college students graduating with little to no experience think they will be net/sys admins and feel they know all there is to know about networking list a whole bunch of crap on their resume, but really have A LOT of gaps.

There usually a bit of gloss on most people's CV's to be honest. People need work. But you need to draw the line somewhere, particularly in IT where so many sceptics hang out anyway!

The situation about graduates isn't new. It applies annually to graduates of all disciplines looking to break into any field and it will always be so.