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Gave up on IT, but good luck everyone!

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    TurgonTurgon Banned Posts: 6,308 ■■■■■■■■■□
    it_consultant wrote: »
    I have a hard time with people who earned their Master's in IT, they also know nothing. IT is a lot more like welding than it is whatever you thought it was. You will screw up more things than you will fix, senior people have to constantly QA your work and fix all of your bad habits. Just like an apprentice welder works under the strict supervision of their master, otherwise they will mess everything up.

    When I started with a Masters in IT I knew a hell of a lot more than a lot of people I worked with. I was examined on how many things worked at a protocol level, at a software engineering level, at a hardware level. But you are correct, I knew nothing about IT in the field. I was not taught how to install Windows 95 or add the PC to a Novell network. I was not taught Novell at all. I was not taught AS400 command line syntax. I was not taught how to upgrade servers or perform backups. I was not taught how to put a token ring network *together*. There was a lot I was not taught and had to learn in my first grunt job, and it took a lot of sweat over 20 months to become reasonably proficient at it. For the first six months I was borderline hopeless at many things. There was just too much reality to learn on the job. A good deal was learned through instruction from other techs who were patient with me. The rest was long hours at work, trial and error and more time with manuals and study guides on my own time than I care to remember now. One has to pay your dues.
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    it_consultantit_consultant Member Posts: 1,903
    Turgon wrote: »
    When I started with a Masters in IT I knew a hell of a lot more than a lot of people I worked with. I was examined on how many things worked at a protocol level, at a software engineering level, at a hardware level. But you are correct, I knew nothing about IT in the field. I was not taught how to install Windows 95 or add the PC to a Novell network. I was not taught Novell at all. I was not taught AS400 command line syntax. I was not taught how to upgrade servers or perform backups. I was not taught how to put a token ring network *together*. There was a lot I was not taught and had to learn in my first grunt job, and it took a lot of sweat over 20 months to become reasonably proficient at it. For the first six months I was borderline hopeless at many things. There was just too much reality to learn on the job. A good deal was learned through instruction from other techs who were patient with me. The rest was long hours at work, trial and error and more time with manuals and study guides on my own time than I care to remember now. One has to pay your dues.

    The tech who works under me is earning her Master's degree right now. She earned her BS in IT earlier this year, she had 8 months of experience before she landed under me. Before I tell anecdotal and funny stories about her lack of knowledge I will say this, she is a great tech. She is motivated, organized, professional, and has a strong aptitude for methodical troubleshooting. On Friday she replaced a hub with a switch because, in her words, "More than one device on a hub can't get an IP address". WRONG ANSWER! She was right to replace the hub with a switch but WAY wrong on the fundamentals. I have to make sure that not only she doesn't mess anything up unnecessarily, she also can't say anything like that in front of the client.

    There are times, like if you need to set up an invisible filter (SurfControl, for example) and you don't have a managed switch available, where you MUST know how a hub operates.

    On Monday I am going to troubleshoot her VPN client, I already know whats wrong with it. It uses openvpn as the core program and the TAP driver won't load in Windows 7 unless you click through a warning. I am sure she didn't do that, the VPN "connects" because the auth is correct but the virtual interface never comes up. This means that she calls me on a Sunday morning because she thinks the whole network is down because she can't remote desktop to anything. She doesn't know to look for a VPN adapter in her network adapter list, hell, she doesn't know to check the IP the VPN assigned to her on logon.

    Someone with 1.5-2 years of quality experience knocks both of those out of the park inside a few minutes. Someone paid 10-15 an hour, is still learning about it. The university degree and certifications gets you to the point where you can at least make out the jargon I just used.
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    dt3kdt3k Member Posts: 64 ■■□□□□□□□□
    Turgon wrote: »
    When I started with a Masters in IT I knew a hell of a lot more than a lot of people I worked with. I was examined on how many things worked at a protocol level, at a software engineering level, at a hardware level. But you are correct, I knew nothing about IT in the field. I was not taught how to install Windows 95 or add the PC to a Novell network. I was not taught Novell at all. I was not taught AS400 command line syntax. I was not taught how to upgrade servers or perform backups. I was not taught how to put a token ring network *together*. There was a lot I was not taught and had to learn in my first grunt job, and it took a lot of sweat over 20 months to become reasonably proficient at it. For the first six months I was borderline hopeless at many things. There was just too much reality to learn on the job. A good deal was learned through instruction from other techs who were patient with me. The rest was long hours at work, trial and error and more time with manuals and study guides on my own time than I care to remember now. One has to pay your dues.

    IBM AS400? Please don't make me barf this early in the morning. God we really need a new ERP system.
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    dt3kdt3k Member Posts: 64 ■■□□□□□□□□
    it_consultant wrote: »
    The tech who works under me is earning her Master's degree right now. She earned her BS in IT earlier this year, she had 8 months of experience before she landed under me. Before I tell anecdotal and funny stories about her lack of knowledge I will say this, she is a great tech. She is motivated, organized, professional, and has a strong aptitude for methodical troubleshooting. On Friday she replaced a hub with a switch because, in her words, "More than one device on a hub can't get an IP address". WRONG ANSWER! She was right to replace the hub with a switch but WAY wrong on the fundamentals. I have to make sure that not only she doesn't mess anything up unnecessarily, she also can't say anything like that in front of the client.

    There are times, like if you need to set up an invisible filter (SurfControl, for example) and you don't have a managed switch available, where you MUST know how a hub operates.

    On Monday I am going to troubleshoot her VPN client, I already know whats wrong with it. It uses openvpn as the core program and the TAP driver won't load in Windows 7 unless you click through a warning. I am sure she didn't do that, the VPN "connects" because the auth is correct but the virtual interface never comes up. This means that she calls me on a Sunday morning because she thinks the whole network is down because she can't remote desktop to anything. She doesn't know to look for a VPN adapter in her network adapter list, hell, she doesn't know to check the IP the VPN assigned to her on logon.

    Someone with 1.5-2 years of quality experience knocks both of those out of the park inside a few minutes. Someone paid 10-15 an hour, is still learning about it. The university degree and certifications gets you to the point where you can at least make out the jargon I just used.

    Some of the things you mentioned, it's amazing how it comes naturally to some people and some don't even have to learn. Others struggle with simple things and have to read howtos and tutorials. My first Cisco class at my local tech school, I was amazed by the sheer number of people there who wanted to be in IT because "There are IT jobs out there", "someone told me I was good with computers", "I want to learn about computers", etc. People taking CCNA level classes that could barely turn on their computers. They couldn't tell you what a stick of RAM was or what a CPU was. Yeah, those people lasted about a week.
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    dt3kdt3k Member Posts: 64 ■■□□□□□□□□
    Turgon wrote: »
    In 1999 companies quite happily worked with the socially dysfunctional if they could configure things. The suits were running very scared back then and made lots of allowances for the IT crowd as the budget was in that area, and suits need a budget to advance their careers. Since then more suits have poured in, the standards brigade, the auditors, the service managers, the project managers, the programme managers, the infrastructure managers. They gave up trying to learn linux 10 years ago and got an MBA. They filled the void made larger by techs that took the candy, got snotty and continued to avoid 'all that management nonsense'. The managers then set about their plans to crush the techs and save the company some money, thereby advancing their own careers. Get with the programme. Learn how to run a meeting, learn about business drivers, commercial strategy and vision. After all, you do at least know how to configure a box. Many of those you work for wouldn't know a 7206VXR if it landed on their heads, but they are busy making plans for all of you and the money that hits your bank account each month.

    I agree with everything you said if I'm understanding your point correctly. I do personally believe that the basic computer technician is on the way out as we move to more cloud based services and virtualization. You will still need some soldiers on the ground for a while, but won't need near the work force at a place like a School District. The thing really fueling and keeping the technician around right now is the explosion of personal/portable computing devices. I know what you are saying about the suits making plans for money hitting my account =) Warning noted.
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    astrogeekastrogeek Member Posts: 251 ■■■□□□□□□□
    jjbrog wrote: »
    At my job we have hired 18-20 year olds with hardly any kind of experience, let alone a degree for 13 an hour to do entry level no degree required assembly. If we're doing that, then I feel that an associates should get you more than what you can get with hardly anything. I wouldn't expect 40K a year off the bat, but noone who busts there ass(ok I didn't but alot of my peers did) for 2+ years of school should come out making 11 bucks a hour. Just my opinion.
    You're comparing apples to oranges. Manufacturing doesn't require skills that can't be learned in a short amount of time, that is why that industry hires people with little to no experience. IT requires skills that can't be taught as easily, and even straight A's at a tech school doesn't prove you know what you're doing, which is why employers want to see experience.

    What I don't understand is why on earth you want to stay in manufacturing. Maybe $18 an hour sounds great now, but try doing that with a family. There also really isn't much of a future in manufacturing unless your goal is to own your own business, and even then I'd doubt you would make as much than if you stuck with, (and were completely dedicated), to IT. No offense but I don't think you're looking down the road at what kind of future you want for yourself because you seem to be completely content with what I consider crap pay. Yea it's better than $11 an hour, but if that was all you were offered at all of your interviews I think you were doing something wrong, (as others have mentioned it could be location too). Did you even bother to look for any internships to gain experience? If you are as good as you say you are it shouldn't take long at all to prove your skills in an internship which could be all you need to get your foot in the door.

    My situation could very well be rare, but I should point out that I'm 29, had no experience in IT, and right now I'm making more than you and have the same benefits you do. (I didn't get my certifications until after being hired). Even if my experience is rare, had I done what you did and gave up after 6 months I would be back at my old crappy job with no future.

    If you don't ,mind me asking, what school did you go to?
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    it_consultantit_consultant Member Posts: 1,903
    dt3k wrote: »
    Some of the things you mentioned, it's amazing how it comes naturally to some people and some don't even have to learn. Others struggle with simple things and have to read howtos and tutorials. My first Cisco class at my local tech school, I was amazed by the sheer number of people there who wanted to be in IT because "There are IT jobs out there", "someone told me I was good with computers", "I want to learn about computers", etc. People taking CCNA level classes that could barely turn on their computers. They couldn't tell you what a stick of RAM was or what a CPU was. Yeah, those people lasted about a week.

    I expect people who are new to know nothing. That is the way it works. When you are new, your only real job is to learn and not screw anything up. I know the tech below me is going to have gaps in her knowledge, that is a given. That's why she isn't paid very much. In her case, if she sticks it out and learns what she needs to learn, she will be getting paid 40% more than she is now in about 1.5 years. If she can't hack it, she will leave the field, I hope she makes it, we need more competent female IT professionals.
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    JoshsevoJoshsevo Member Posts: 18 ■□□□□□□□□□
    I'm in the same boat. I have a BA Sec+, CEH, CHFI cert's and can't find a job. I have an unpaid internship doing computer forensics but it's unpaid. he's willing to bring me on board FT unpaid but will train me for free. Well I'm 32 have a wife and kid and have bills. Can't go willy Nilly quitting jobs....yet.

    Here's my plan:

    Not giving up yet, just need to do more drastic things.
    1. Go back to school for my Master's degree....Check, working on it now. graduate Feb 2013.
    2. Pay bills off so I can quit my FT job or go PT......Check, Get a 4K bonus in Dec + Tax return
    3. Find a PT/FT (nights) job doing maybe Security Guard making $12-18 per hr....Not yet, got to do #2 first
    4. Go to unpaid Forensics job to gain the experience for a yr or two. Suck it up, be a man. Do it then get hired FT by another company.
    5. Then have a paid job doing what I love as well as the experience to back it up and a Master's degree as well as more certs.
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    lsud00dlsud00d Member Posts: 1,571
    Joshsevo wrote: »
    FT unpaid

    Does not compute
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    vColevCole Member Posts: 1,573 ■■■■■■■□□□
    lsud00d wrote: »
    Does not compute

    I believe he means FT hours (40+), but unpaid.
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    lsud00dlsud00d Member Posts: 1,571
    vCole wrote: »
    I believe he means FT hours (40+), but unpaid.

    I'm aware :)

    I 'does not compute' working FT...unpaid.
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    veritas_libertasveritas_libertas Member Posts: 5,746 ■■■■■■■■■■
    lsud00d wrote: »
    I'm aware :)

    I 'does not compute' working FT...unpaid.

    Not when you are married and have children. I would love to have had an unpaid internship doing forensics about five years ago though.
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    erpadminerpadmin Member Posts: 4,165 ■■■■■■■■■■
    veritas_libertas wrote: »
    Not when you are married and have children. I would love to have had an unpaid internship doing forensics about five years ago though.

    I don't need a wife and/or kids to not being able to compute doing a full time unpaid internship. It just wouldn't happen today....period.

    So if I were to have a wife and kids...an unpaid internship would be a surefire way to have my kid call some other guy "dad."

    I'm with you and lsud00d on this one. :)
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    VitalSign0VitalSign0 Member Posts: 4 ■□□□□□□□□□
    My first IT job was in 2000 and paid $18k a year. A year later I got a job making $33k a year. Two years later it was $48k. Another year was $60k.

    I currently have the dream IT job. Sys Admin, no overtime, my own office, and pays around $55k a year.

    I dropped out of high school in the 10th grade and have no college.

    Employers want friendly IT people. Even moreso than technically heavy people. My boss told me I got hired out of a pool of 7 other college educated people because I came off as more intelligent, a self learner, and patient.
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    veritas_libertasveritas_libertas Member Posts: 5,746 ■■■■■■■■■■
    erpadmin wrote: »
    I don't need a wife and/or kids to not being able to compute doing a full time unpaid internship. It just wouldn't happen today....period.

    So if I were to have a wife and kids...an unpaid internship would be a surefire way to have my kid call some other guy "dad."

    I'm with you and lsud00d on this one. :)

    Yeah, and I have this thing about not being paid for work. Even if I liked what I did.
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    lsud00dlsud00d Member Posts: 1,571
    veritas_libertas wrote: »
    Yeah, and I have this thing about not being paid for work. Even if I liked what I did.

    I LOVE playing music, and I don't even do that for free!

    Hell, my IT internship in college was FTE + salary + benefits...
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    veritas_libertasveritas_libertas Member Posts: 5,746 ■■■■■■■■■■
    lsud00d wrote: »
    I LOVE playing music, and I don't even do that for free!

    Hell, my IT internship in college was FTE + salary + benefits...

    I wish I had been that lucky. It would have been nice to be paid for it.
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    lsud00dlsud00d Member Posts: 1,571
    veritas_libertas wrote: »
    I wish I had been that lucky. It would have been nice to be paid for it.

    It was a sweet deal, but one of the times in life I had to grab by the bootstraps...it was my senior year of college, taking 18 hours in Fall and 21 in Spring...and I was working 40hrs/wk on top of my classes...but my salary would increase upon graduation so there was an incentive to finish ASAP :) It was actually really good timing because my 1993 Jeep Cherokee was literally dying and I was able to buy my 2007 Grand Cherokee, which I love!
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