I'm ready to walk out the door without 2 weeks notice.

TheFORCE

Good advice from everyone, thats why I enjoy this forum and the community here, like minded individuals ready to help.

I finally talked to my manager, I wont say what title my manager has but I'll say they are 3 level away from CEO, which makes me and the other guy 4 levels away. Anyway, thats irrelevant but wanted to give an idea about the structure since there were some questions about that.

So I talked to my manager and during the conversation i couldn't hold myself, I became emotional and broke down, never happened before in my working years, couldn't help it. Anyway, now they know i dont like that attitude and the approach. Manager said they had noticed some missed deliverables and that they should have stepped in sooner to take control and apologized and said that they will bring it up to them because this was unacceptable in the work place.
I feel a little better but I need to pick myself up and get a little stronger and don't doubt myself because that will hurt me more that what was said.
I like to beleive we all go to work to support our families and enjoy work and to challenge ourselves to become better, and not because we want to fight and be antagonistic with each other, nor i have an ageda to compete with coworkers, veryone offers somthing valuable to the organization. Doesn't help anyone when people don't work together. So now we will see how things will change, whole weekend ahead.

UnixGuy

Good job man. you broke down because you held it for so long so it built up. Never again, always speak up and don't be afraid. Also talking to us on this forum about helps as well

Good luck!

OctalDump

If it is affecting your health, physically or mentally, go to a doctor. Get it on record. Be very clear with the doctor that it is because of the situation at work. It sounds like acute stress disorder.

Then you need to use whatever the internal processes are at your workplace to report this behaviour, also. Why? Because your workplace has a legal obligation to provide a safe workplace.

ANd really, I wouldn't be worried about being emotional. It's perfectly reasonable to expect your colleagues to behave professionally and not be bullying. Workplace bullies, psychopaths/sociopaths, personality disorders etc just don't play by the same rules. So when it does happen, it really is not easy to deal with, since you really don't expect it and usually don't have a good idea how to deal with it. You can't play by the normal rules, which is what you are trying to do.

Now, you do have a choice to make about whether you fight this, which will be hard work and more stress, or whether to walk away. That's a call for you to make, since you are the only one that knows what's right for you.

If you do decide to fight, then there's been a lot of good advice given here. It is very valuable to get evidence about this. Getting a paper trail, showing them as unreasonable, inflexible, bullying, incompetent etc and you as reasonable, flexible, competent good guy that has the business need at heart. I would recommend getting legal advice before recording, since making a recording (depending where you live) might actually be a criminal offence. But if you can do it, or you are comfortable with whatever risk, then it is worthwhile particularly if this person is saying things that they aren't putting into email.

If you do have an conversation with them, then send an email afterwards saying "Just confirming that this is what we agreed" and whatever the details of the conversation are.

I also think it is worthwhile to escalate this to your management, C level even, to deal with the structural issues.

And if in the end, you do leave, then sit down with C level and tell them why you are leaving, what the problem is, and what you think they should do about it. Maybe even offer to talk with whoever they hire to replace you. Because what will happen if you leave, is they will hire someone else and the same thing will happen. That should mark you out as a real professional.

I hope this gets resolved for you, because no one should have to put up with this in a workplace. We go to work to do work, not to fight.

SpetsRepair

UnixGuy wrote: »

Talk to your boss, and demand action from your boss. If your boss doesn't act, talk to his boss. Make sure that the CISO knows damn well what they guy said about burying him.

The guy is bullying and trying to make you quit. You have the power to get him fired. Play, you've got nothing to lose but a crappy job. You've got skills so you can get another job. Meanwhile, make sure everyone in management and upper management knows in DETAIL what this guy is doing, expose him. The more exposing the better. You will see how weak he is once everyone knows what's up.

Things don't really work that way in most situations. Usually the mid/upper managers are from the same cloth and have a solid support group behind them. Eventually, it might be you and two other engineers complaining against the whole dept, but nothing gets changed and the same flow keeps going. Anyone saying go to HR is obviously not serious, and they haven't been had to deal with HR before, yea going to the manager/upper manager can help, but in most cases they are the same thing and only care about their projects and their jobs get done. Do what I did and move to another company, when you leave the people who paid attention will come around and know why you left, but the managers/supervisors rarely if ever have to change. In the business world, its call having a cushy job, when you are in middle management you can do what ever you want since no way in hell the company will let you go, also claim ignorance and no knowledge of such actions once you are in middle engagement.

UnixGuy

SpetsRepair wrote: »

...yea going to the manager/upper manager can help, but in most cases they are the same thing and only care about their projects and their jobs get done. ...

yea I've experienced both. What you're describing here is what a bad manager would do, and I agree it's best to move on AFTER you've spoken to management.

I've done times and times again, I tell managers openly. I've got nothing to fear nor lose and almost always they take action to address the issue and it's not a big deal. There are a lot of good managers out there, it's not all bad. trust me.

I agree too that talking to HR is not the best idea. I've never done it before; don't think I will.

NetworkNewb

Sounds like you guys have had shitty HR and upper management if you think going to them is a bad idea. I've been at a company where a VP was treating people horribly and that VP ended up getting "let go". (was not a company with a bunch of VPs, this person was high up the ladder too) Before people actually starting reporting the issues that were going on, people were doing just as you guys were suggesting, just leaving the company. The people that stayed and fought back have all moved up to a lot better positions in the company as well. I've actually talked with the CEO of that company and he personally thanks the people that stuck around through all of it. Was a slow process of documenting everything needed to let go of that person.

CiscoASA2202

UnixGuy wrote: »

yea I've experienced both. What you're describing here is what a bad manager would do, and I agree it's best to move on AFTER you've spoken to management.

I've done times and times again, I tell managers openly. I've got nothing to fear nor lose and almost always they take action to address the issue and it's not a big deal. There are a lot of good managers out there, it's not all bad. trust me.

Some people don't have the option of talking to management or HR since they are too new in the field or their position.

OctalDump

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

Some people don't have the option of talking to management or HR since they are too new in the field or their position.

The option is always there, how effective it is depends on many factors. At the end of the day, most businesses will listen to money, and workplace bullying, a hostile work environment, can cost them money. Projects not being delivered, costs money. Security breaches cost money. If the company has its sh!t together, then they will have processes in place to deal with the HR issues, and to hear arguments about money.

UnixGuy

CiscoASA2202 wrote: »

Some people don't have the option of talking to management or HR since they are too new in the field or their position.

That's not true mate, you can always speak to your boss. Mention things and 'ask' about situations innocently, bosses love to guide new employees. So what if you are new in the field? The consequences to bullying and not nice and we don't want someone to do something irrational because they're afraid to talk to their boss. It's not that bad

Remedymp

SpetsRepair wrote: »

Things don't really work that way in most situations. Usually the mid/upper managers are from the same cloth and have a solid support group behind them. Eventually, it might be you and two other engineers complaining against the whole dept, but nothing gets changed and the same flow keeps going. Anyone saying go to HR is obviously not serious, and they haven't been had to deal with HR before, yea going to the manager/upper manager can help, but in most cases they are the same thing and only care about their projects and their jobs get done. Do what I did and move to another company, when you leave the people who paid attention will come around and know why you left, but the managers/supervisors rarely if ever have to change. In the business world, its call having a cushy job, when you are in middle management you can do what ever you want since no way in hell the company will let you go, also claim ignorance and no knowledge of such actions once you are in middle engagement.

This is exactly my point. A toxic employee is the sign of a toxic environment. Going to HR and talk to a manager is useless. My advice still stands, Get Out ASAP. The market is brewing over right now. Too many positions available, not enough resources to fill it.

Security Architect $120k/yr

TechGromit

TheFORCE wrote: »

So I talked to my manager and during the conversation i couldn't hold myself, I became emotional and broke down, never happened before in my working years, couldn't help it.

So you cried in front of you boss? On second thought leaving without 2 weeks notice was a good idea after all.

TheFORCE

TechGromit wrote: »

So you cried in front of you boss? On second thought leaving without 2 weeks notice was a good idea after all.

Life aint easy, I'm not the only one that has felt like that when feeling abused. There's a deeper reason that I couldn't just quit, have other things to care of off first.

Cert Poor

Poison his coffee. Cut his brake lines. Sleep with his mother and send him the video.

knownhero

The moment he said he has a file on me I'd have gone to HR. Also when sending requests I would have been CCin' everyone higher than me to all emails. If they asked why they're included just be truthful saying "He's been stalling and wont action security measures which are needed to keep us safe blah, blah"

I would call his bluff and just do my work. People like him will be exposed sooner or later.

UncleB

knownhero wrote: »

The moment he said he has a file on me I'd have gone to HR.

Without supporting evidence (emails, a recording or witness) then this is your word against his and if he has been there longer plus is a higher grade then he is in a better position of seeming more trustworthy to HR.

Jumping straight to HR is likely to backfire as he will deny it and you are left looking like a whiner, so treat it like a technical incident at work, gather the evidence and prove your claim before taking it to someone else so they take it seriously. It puts you straight in the position of being level headed, professional and puts him in a poor light due to the damning evidence. It doesn't matter if the evidence is not suitable for a court - it only needs to establish you as a credible claimant and it is likely to open the floodgates as others say "me too".

Then, collectively and with HR support, the guy will get hung out to dry.

The OP has already pointed out that this is a big issue for them to work under the pressure and it is taking its toll, so simply calling the bluff is quite possibly going to be too much to take on without ammunition (and I don't mean of the .45 kind).

jacksonr

Ok,

My questions would be:

1) Do you enjoy your Job,

2) If it wasn’t for this guy, are you happy with the Salary, People, Location etc
If you have answered Yes to the above, then why are you letting this Bully push you out? As soon as he had come out with “I’m going to Bury you” (Which in all honesty, I would have laughed in his face), I would have gone straight to HR and arranged a meeting with them and my line manager to discuss this.

Say you do walk away and wipe your hands of it all, what about the next person that comes in and has the same issues. The sooner this guy is taken down a peg or two the better. You at least need to explore the avenues first mate IMHO.

Cert Poor

To all the people asking, "What about the next guy [he bullies]?" I see your point. But is it really OP's responsibility? Eventually as enough people leave because of this bully, people will get the hint. You can also document all of the above in your resignation letter. As enough people resign citing the same person/reason, HR will take action and terminate.

UnixGuy

OP any update?

9bits

Hopefully OP didn't get buried.

Remedymp

9bits wrote: »

Hopefully OP didn't get buried.

Maybe he got deported.

TheFORCE

I think the talk I had gave me a bit of a confidence boost, the dude is still being a duche though. I'm looking at all available options, documenting my stuff and following the rules.

LaSeeno

TheFORCE wrote: »

I think the talk I had gave me a bit of a confidence boost, the dude is still being a duche though. I'm looking at all available options, documenting my stuff and following the rules.

Any chance of taking the guy our for lunch or drinks and getting things fixed? I've been in a similar situation but I'm the type that will push back twice as hard as I get pushed. Just the way I was raised. Sometimes a little 1 on 1 is a good start to get the old guard to relax a little. Is it possible he's worried that you're out to get him?

Remedymp

LaSeeno wrote: »

Any chance of taking the guy our for lunch or drinks and getting things fixed? I've been in a similar situation but I'm the type that will push back twice as hard as I get pushed. Just the way I was raised. Sometimes a little 1 on 1 is a good start to get the old guard to relax a little. Is it possible he's worried that you're out to get him?

Do you always negotiate with terrorist?

xxxkaliboyxxx

LaSeeno wrote: »

Any chance of taking the guy our for lunch or drinks and getting things fixed? I've been in a similar situation but I'm the type that will push back twice as hard as I get pushed. Just the way I was raised. Sometimes a little 1 on 1 is a good start to get the old guard to relax a little. Is it possible he's worried that you're out to get him?

instead of taking the guy out to lunch, maybe taking the guy outback . no serious, how about putting the fear within him, within the legal boundaries of course.

LaSeeno

Remedymp wrote: »

Do you always negotiate with terrorist?

As much as I would enjoy giving a deserving individual a beating you have to play chess not checkers.

TheFORCE

The thing is that the dude is one of those who think they know it all. No point in dealing with people that dont have an open mind.

GSXR750K2

Strategy and patience are key. You don't fight a superior force head-on, you demoralize them to the point they don't want to fight. This guy thinks he's a tank, so the best way to deal is to blow the bridge when the tank is crossing. Minimal effort, maximum effect.

It would be a real shame if he was found to be the cause of a significant, though contained, security event. If I myself were the security guy at the company, I'd keep an eye out for such an opportunity to show the company how much worse things could have been. Just saying.

UnixGuy

TheFORCE wrote: »

The thing is that the dude is one of those who think they know it all. No point in dealing with people that dont have an open mind.

This is my least favourite kind. The know it all AND those who talk all day.

TheFORCE

So I gave my notice to my manager. They talked to the COO and they came to my office asking what they can do so I wont leave, they promised, more money, better title and hiring consultants to assist. Told me if I stay, they will change things and make it work. Asked me take a day to think about it. So, thats the counter offer i guess. I'm set on leaving but the speech gave me a guilty consciousness.

p@r0tuXus

TheFORCE wrote: »

So I gave my notice to my manager. They talked to the COO and they came to my office asking what they can do so I wont leave, they promised, more money, better title and hiring consultants to assist. Told me if I stay, they will change things and make it work. Asked me take a day to think about it. So, thats the counter offer i guess. I'm set on leaving but the speech gave me a guilty consciousness.

Sounds like you have a great support structure with your bosses. Look, I'm not you so i can't tell you what to do. But you didn't jump into the decision to leave, you asked for help, not just here but at work too. You got great advice on this thread from well-seasoned professionals. It looks like your efforts paid you a return with the approach from your bosses. Promises are all well and good and I'd hope you'd feel better, but the truth is you want guarantees. What steps or progress plans have they presented you with? Do you have meetings on the books to discuss strategy on how to move forward? Are there progress report meetings with your boss and his and this other person you're having trouble with, all lined up to ensure accountability and participation? At the least, they're giving you bonuses for putting up with it and seem willing to help. Time will tell if they're hitting the marks.