State of IT - Biggest problem is the lack of skilled workers

kiki162

@Iris - I’m going to piggyback off your original post here and add a few things into it. I’ve come across many people that have had their share of issues with H1B’s. From the “cultural” to the “lack” of knowledge, its certainly something that is prevalent in this industry. What gets me is a lot of companies that have the programming or engineering based jobs overseas in countries like India. Now I understand have a need for overseas workers for 24/7 help desk related stuff, it’s when you send the quality jobs that kids right out of college should be getting that bugs the hell out of me.


I totally agree that there’s a lack of skilled workers, but I think a lot of that goes back to the lack of education and prep-work in colleges here in the US. Colleges continue to use a lot of the same basic curriculum, and nothing that drives, pushes, or excites students to do more. Having that preparation as well as an entry level opportunity is key, but also implementing a “continuous” learning or education plan will help you maintain over the long term.


One of the best things that all of us can do is to use sites such as Glassdoor or Indeed to post about some of these hiring practices. When you have an HR that doesn’t really check to see whether they actually have certifications, or not letting hiring manager do the “real” work in interviews should be called out. Having incompetent employees who really don’t know what the heck they are doing lowers morale for others that do care, and doesn’t bode well for organizations in the long run.


This is what happens to some that are in a position for a long time, haven’t updated their certs, have no certs, and want to move on and get a new job. You certainly see questions such as “what do I need to do to get here” or “I’m stuck” being asked. I was watching a video off of the SANS website recently, and one of the instructors talked about the subject of “What do I need to do to succeed in IT?” His answer was really simple, “always have something going on, whether it be certs, classes, college.” In other words “continuous education” and making sure that you are always doing something to keep your career going forward.

volfkhat

ande0255 wrote: »

I know someone who would call into Cisco TAC and while troubleshooting ask where the engineer was located, then Google places in the area and ask them if they've been to restaurants and such in the area, acting as though he had been there or was planning to vacation there.

Point is he added these TAC engineers to his Jabber via social engineering, so when there is a high level issue at my company he Jabbers them the issue, and he regurgitates a fix as if it were his own.

i find myself grinning.

Some people follow the rules...
Some people play by their own rules.

It's interesting how we romanticize these people in fiction (James T. Kirk, Don 'Whitman' Draper, etc),
but we cry foul in real life.


Hate the Game, Not the Playa (i suppose...)

scenicroute

jelevated wrote: »

I remember calling into the wireless div, the guy spent two hours explaining how their antennas work, it was like getting a having a 1 on 1 cooking lesson with Gordon Ramsey.

TechGromit

Iristheangel wrote: »

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• Someone with "Master of BGP" written on his resume and 20 years of networking experience on his resume but couldn't explain how to bring up a neighbor-ship. ...
• Network engineer with 12 years of experience but couldn't name a single routing protocol and didn't know what IPSec was.
• Network engineer with over 20 years of experience and several expert level certifications who couldn't walk through a packet walk and didn't know what ARP was. Claims he never heard of it.

I think this is pretty common in the industry, they really don't have 20 years experience, they really just have just enough knowledge to do there day to day job at there former company, they learned for a year or two at the most, and just repeated the same tasks over any over again. More like 2 years experience repeated 10 times. As for the certifications they claimed they possessed. I'm wondering if the certifications they had were verified before the interview, anyone can claim to have a CCNA or CCNP, but can they back that up with proof? Maybe they were hoping no one verifies their certification claims. The interview questions you mentioned are CCENT / CCNA level questions I'm studying, hardly what I call advanced networking questions.

Cisco seems to be taking measures to make brain dumping more difficult, I'm wondering if they would be interested in certification holders that do not possess the networking knowledge for certification they claim they know? Some kind of reporting system maybe?

Iristheangel

TechGromit wrote: »

I think this is pretty common in the industry, they really don't have 20 years experience, they really just have just enough knowledge to do there day to day job at there former company, they learned for a year or two at the most, and just repeated the same tasks over any over again. More like 2 years experience repeated 10 times. As for the certifications they claimed they possessed. I'm wondering if the certifications they had were verified before the interview, anyone can claim to have a CCNA or CCNP, but can they back that up with proof? Maybe they were hoping no one verifies their certification claims. The interview questions you mentioned are CCENT / CCNA level questions I'm studying, hardly what I call advanced networking questions.

Cisco seems to be taking measures to make brain dumping more difficult, I'm wondering if they would be interested in certification holders that do not possess the networking knowledge for certification they claim they know? Some kind of reporting system maybe?

Yeah, they weren't meant to be advanced questions. I typically like to start things off slowly and then move into more advanced questions. Sadly, its isn't easy to find people who get he basics.


As far as a way to report people, here: Support Home Page

After you sign in, click on Exam Security Tipline

ande0255

I must chime in here and say in interviews, I am a nervous wreck, and I mean beads of sweat rolling down my head for no reason. The neck on my collared shirt seems to start choking me, my voice is starting to quiver because the interviewers can tell I am so nervous.

One of them asked me "Can you describe the purpose of the IP Helper-Address command?" and working with VOIP that is absolutely a no brainer, but I had such a hard time articulating it, I am seriously considering getting like a sedative to put back before interviews.

It seems like I am my own worst enemy in the room when I interview for jobs, the only way I got my current job is I was so pissed that the interviewer had the nerve to be 20 minutes late, that I approached the interview very blunt with the engineer and manager.

Being blunt, telling them I don't want to waste their time guessing at VOIP questions cause I've never worked with it, but if you hire me I will work my ass off to get up to speed for the company. I actually wrote a joke answer to the technical questionnaire they had me fill out before leaving.

Figured there was no way I was getting that job, that night the manager was calling me at like 7pm after he poured himself a scotch, and convinced me to leave my current help desk job for my current job at my MSP as a kind of jack of all trades.

I have engineer in my title, but I don't think I could really claim that title until I actually deploy a solution, rather than support and troubleshoot it.

scenicroute

ande0255 wrote: »

One of them asked me "Can you describe the purpose of the IP Helper-Address command?" and working with VOIP that is absolutely a no brainer, but I had such a hard time articulating it, I am seriously considering getting like a sedative to put back before interviews.

I do better in interviews these days, but I used to get brain-fuzz pretty bad. I remember one of my first IT interviews was a phone interview with Dell. They asked, "How do you test connectivity on a TCP/IP network?" I said, "Uhh...netstat -nr". And they responded with, "No, the correct answer is ping."

So I'm thinking, "Ping?! That's just how you see if a machine is there....oh...OHHHHH"

Yeah, flopped that one.

p@r0tuXus

I love this thread and all the thought and experience you've brought to it, Iris. I feel for your story of hard-times and harder work. You're a shinning example of how well it can pay-off. Congratulations on your success and a genuine thanks for your devotion to the professional development of others!

To add to the humorous, self-depricating interview stories I "brain-narfed" a question about "traceroute" once. I knew it and it was on the tip of my tongue. When they said it I swear they saw the eyes fall out the back of my head at myself. LoL Anymore, it's all I can do not to get into an interview and be like Spud:

https://i.makeagif.com/media/12-05-2015/44GdEv.gif

ande0255

scenicroute wrote: »

I do better in interviews these days, but I used to get brain-fuzz pretty bad. I remember one of my first IT interviews was a phone interview with Dell. They asked, "How do you test connectivity on a TCP/IP network?" I said, "Uhh...netstat -nr". And they responded with, "No, the correct answer is ping."

So I'm thinking, "Ping?! That's just how you see if a machine is there....oh...OHHHHH"

Yeah, flopped that one.

I am glad I am not the only one, I configured IP helper address to help those phones hit their TFTP server sooooo many times, it's like missing an exam by a hair on a rats teeth and then realizing the answer on the drive home...

... I did that the last Fail grade I got for ICND2 years and years ago, I still remember the STP question to this day, ooooh boy was I pithed at mythelf

Iristheangel

LoL. Seriously though, if you're having problems with interviews, I recommend toastmasters and mock interviews with folks you really respect in the field. Interviewers aren't going to know you're qualified if you're unable to clearly articulate yourself and answer the technical questions right most of the time. We all have stuff that we can improve on.

To be fair, I've always been good at interviews but I always had a fear of talking in front of groups of folks (more than a small couple people) and I wondered how I would adapt to my current job since there were more than enough situations I found myself in. I had my share of missteps in the first year and I think I found some... ahem... creative ways out of presenting at technical events. I never joined anything as formal as toastmasters (though my spouse and I are starting to consider it) but I did do other things to push my comfort zone. I joined a meetup group and started doing technical presentations online. I also started doing afterhours labbing and study groups for folks in person (If ninjaturtle reads this thread, he knows what I'm talking about). I'm now at the point where I can comfortably present to a very very crowded room of people and I even feel comfortable enough to post videos of me doing technical training online completely unedited.

The reason I'm considering joining toastmasters now is because I find myself realizing I use fillers during presentations more that I like and it bugs me. I also suck balls at using ppts. I don't like following along what feels like a forced structured path during presentations and I'm more a of a whiteboarder. I think toastmasters could help develop those skills a little more for me.

Luis103

I'm one of the Jehovah's witness so I'm use to talking to individuals I don't know. This includes giving public "Talks" in my local congregation that range from 5 to 30 minutes in front of 150+ people.

I prepare for interviews kinda of similarly on how I prepare for those talks. I create an outline of my resume pretty much.

For example:

Active Directory
Group Policy
Replication
FSMO Roles
Upgrading Domain controllers

NetScaler
VPN
Load Balance
Content Switching
SNIP, NSIPS etc.

Exchange
DAG
Mailboxes
Namespace URLS
Connectors

Then I'll practice what to say on each subheading underneath such as how I've implemented it or what the technology does. I'll make sure I hit everything I say I know on my resume and won't list something I don't know.

I take this outline to my interview and use to keep my thoughts in order.

scenicroute

Iristheangel wrote: »

The reason I'm considering joining toastmasters now is because I find myself realizing I use fillers during presentations more that I like and it bugs me. I also suck balls at using ppts. I don't like following along what feels like a forced structured path during presentations and I'm more a of a whiteboarder. I think toastmasters could help develop those skills a little more for me.

My public speaking professor helped me a lot in how to structure presentations and power points. The general idea was if you have several pieces of information on a slide, pick just one, maybe two points, and discuss them more in depth verbally, while physically moving, if possible (toward and way from the podium or back and forth in front of the screen). The audience can read the other points for themselves, and their attention is pulled in when they notice what you're saying isn't on the slide. The biggest error we could make would be to just read the slides verbatim to the audience.

Also, practicing out loud before hand was emphasized, and it made a big difference for me. It feels kind of weird giving talks to a wall or empty room, but it helps a lot in sorting your thoughts.

Iristheangel

@Luis103 - That's actually a really good system too. Great idea.

One of my coworkers made this video and we've had a lot of success with folks in our group who have gotten jobs using the interview battlecard system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0XMnN1c1V0

dhay13

Funny thing for me is my daughter actually had a degree in communications and speaks very well in front of large crowds. She is 22 (got her B.S. at 20 with honors) and works in sales and often speaks to crowds and does very well. Maybe I need to learn from here...lol

greg9891

Iristheangel I think that this post is very interesting and I agree with the fact that if you truly say you love somthing then should take the time to learn and to stay relevant in your skills for example it should be in your own interest to not let your skills get rusty. Very Interesting Post Indeed.

ande0255

I still like the amb1en idea, might even help with tests too, when my hands are shaking so hard I can barely sign myself in

Some moments in life you want to remember, for everything else, there is amb1en. I should have gone into advertising!

NetworkNewb

Iristheangel wrote: »

@Luis103 - That's actually a really good system too. Great idea.

One of my coworkers made this video and we've had a lot of success with folks in our group who have gotten jobs using the interview battlecard system: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0XMnN1c1V0

Watched some of this video and figured it could come in handy for an interview I might have coming up this week. I say might because I'm not sure if I want the position and not sure if I'm even qualified. Recruiter from the company already contacted and is asking more info. Will probably meet with them...

But anyways, I found the editable version of the Battlecard online, downloaded it, and going to start filling it out tonight. Tell your co-worker it's getting put to use and thanks!

PocketLumberjack

This technique got me an offer to a job, I felt so calm in the interview. I felt like they were meeting the real me instead of the nervous wreck I usually am in a interview.

TechGromit

ande0255 wrote: »

I must chime in here and say in interviews, I am a nervous wreck, and I mean beads of sweat rolling down my head for no reason. The neck on my collared shirt seems to start choking me, my voice is starting to quiver because the interviewers can tell I am so nervous.

I guess when your unemployed and you HAVE to get a job, the pressure is more intense during an interview, but when you have a good job and looking for something better, I don't think the pressure is as intense. You need to practice interviews until your comfortable with the process.

Iristheangel wrote: »

Seriously though, if you're having problems with interviews, I recommend toastmasters and mock interviews with folks you really respect in the field. Interviewers aren't going to know you're qualified if you're unable to clearly articulate yourself and answer the technical questions right most of the time. We all have stuff that we can improve on.

This is excellent advise. You need to be comfortable speaking in front of a small group of people if you expect to advance very far into your career. It's better to get over the fear of public speaking sooner than later.

blatini

The resume battle card is great. Just utilize the parts of it you feel are necessary. I don't utilize everything (IE: elevator pitch) but it's a great starting point.

higherho

I deal with this all too often. Last contract I Lead, I complained about my team (I was the lead of a group of System Admins) not being skilled enough and not having the necessary skills pointing out in the contract. I would get told "Are you looking for them to be like you? Does the mission get done?" . I'm like really? When I have to explain to System admins what DNS, DHCP, FISMO roles, promoting a member server to a DC, etc then we have a problem. Even basic networking skills (every SA needs this). The mission might get done but typically it gets done sloppy or by the better of the group and the rest relies on that said individual. I even pointed out to their PM, CEO, and their lead contractor SA (sad that I had to tell the lead SA on the contractor side.) different levels of skills in terms of what Microsoft determines what is associate level knowledge in managing Windows Servers. I did this because they thought I was being too demanding. After that meeting, they fixed the issue but it took 6 months and thank god my supervisor was backing me up. Because of all that, I was able to change the contract accordingly so that when I leave it would not happen again (or so I hope).

I don't mind people learning or refreshing certain skills on the job. However, I do care if people are being thrown into positions and learning those positions and skills. I'm sorry a fundamental level needs to be reached before climbing up the next rung in the ladder.

Now I'm not saying I'm perfect. I **** up in interviews and kick myself later for it. It happens, were human.

ande0255

I bookmarked that battle card thing for when I have some down time to watch it, I'm not actively looking at the moment, thanks for linking to that.

mzx380

Thank you as always for your well thought posts. You provide many of us with inspiration as well as valuable insight!

hurricane1091

Just thoughts on interviewing.

I want to say this, I interviewed for 3 positions. 2 I was very qualified for, and passed on. I did reasonably well, but the interviews consisted of what I call a testing environment. I cannot stand being hammered like this is a test. Throwing out acronyms, various tech things, etc. If someone has never applied to be, I just won't know it. I find it uncomfortable as it is. I received a very test like question with the answer being soft-reconfiguration inbound, and I knew the answer. My point there is just because I knew the answer, does it really mean anything if I've never used it? Because quite frankly, I labbed it once and just happen to remember it. Not good interviewing tactics in my opinion. On the opposite end of the spectrum is the job I did get. They sat me down with a team, and asked me my experience. We simply talked about technologies and designs, and it was incredibly more comfortable and insightful to both parties. I'll take that lesson with my in life should I be in a position where I interview folks, and take that approach. It's more realistic, and the testing approach might lead you to dictionary workers who can't actual get the job done when it counts. My two cents.

NOC-Ninja

Lots of engineers that stay with the company dont even read books anymore. Some are just doing day to day work and chill on the weekends.
Some are there to ride out the wave and retire. Id say they are 80% that dont study anymore.

I sometimes wonder why i have to study and get **** with big projects that some people had and didnt do anything to it for a year or 2.
To be able to understand and really answer interview questions, one must read and lab everyday until he/she gets it. Studying sucks. I understand it. You dont get paid for studying. I dont blame anyone from not knowing everything.

This pet peeve of engineers not good enough is good for me.. I like it. Less competition. I can demand more money.

Master Yoda

Great post!!!! Awesome read!

Legacy User

NOC-Ninja wrote: »

Lots of engineers that stay with the company dont even read books anymore. Some are just doing day to day work and chill on the weekends.
Some are there to ride out the wave and retire. Id say they are 80% that dont study anymore.

I sometimes wonder why i have to study and get **** with big projects that some people had and didnt do anything to it for a year or 2.

This pet peeve of engineers not good enough is good for me.. I like it. Less competition. I can demand more money.

I know plenty of people like this! 15+ year people in the field just waiting for retirement just cruising by. Thats the only problem with staying at the same place for a long time and not looking for ways to challenge yourself you become complacent. I rather take the big projects find new ways to push myself then be the guy on youtube watching videos all day.

I always look at it with the mindset if what I know today would be good enough to get the job tomorrow.

NetworkingStudent

It makes me sick when I read stores like the ones below:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0
H-1B immigrants work for less than American tech workers, Professor Hira said at a hearing in March of the Senate Judiciary Committee, because of weaknesses in wage regulations. The savings have been 25 percent to 49 percent in recent cases, he told lawmakers.
A limited number of the visas, 85,000, are granted each year, and they are in high demand. Technology giants like Microsoft, Facebook and Google repeatedly press for increases in the annual quotas, saying there are not enough Americans with the skills they need.
Former employees said many immigrants who arrived were younger technicians with limited data skills who did not speak English fluently and had to be instructed in the basics of the work.

How about when a college outsources all IT jobs to India?

How the University of California exploited a visa loophole to move tech jobs to India - LA Times

---

These H-1B immigrants don’t seem any smarter than the workers they’re replacing. This means that the only reason for the replacement is because it’s cheaper to outsource, than to pay the going rate.
H-1B is similar to manufacturing items in other countries. A lot of items we buy everyday are made in China, and other countries. It’s just cheaper to makes things in other countries, than it is to make things here in America.

p@r0tuXus

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

H-1B is similar to manufacturing items in other countries. A lot of items we buy everyday are made in China, and other countries. It’s just cheaper to makes things in other countries, than it is to make things here in America.

This was my initial impression when I read the disney article. Right then, I kind of figured it was something like that. Additionally, if MS, FB and Alphabet (Google) want more people in the US with skillsets they need, they should do more to promote that education.

Iristheangel

NetworkingStudent wrote: »

It makes me sick when I read stores like the ones below:
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html?_r=0
H-1B immigrants work for less than American tech workers, Professor Hira said at a hearing in March of the Senate Judiciary Committee, because of weaknesses in wage regulations. The savings have been 25 percent to 49 percent in recent cases, he told lawmakers.
A limited number of the visas, 85,000, are granted each year, and they are in high demand. Technology giants like Microsoft, Facebook and Google repeatedly press for increases in the annual quotas, saying there are not enough Americans with the skills they need.
Former employees said many immigrants who arrived were younger technicians with limited data skills who did not speak English fluently and had to be instructed in the basics of the work.

How about when a college outsources all IT jobs to India?

How the University of California exploited a visa loophole to move tech jobs to India - LA Times

---

These H-1B immigrants don’t seem any smarter than the workers they’re replacing. This means that the only reason for the replacement is because it’s cheaper to outsource, than to pay the going rate.
H-1B is similar to manufacturing items in other countries. A lot of items we buy everyday are made in China, and other countries. It’s just cheaper to makes things in other countries, than it is to make things here in America.

Quoting what I wrote in the original post:

So yes... there is still a need for H1Bs and they're not all bad. I'm sure a lot of folks will read just that sentence and send me some anecdotal story about some abuse that happened but as I said, don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. I'm for eliminating abuses and I'm not for displacing existing workers but after interviewing technical candidates for years in densely populated Los Angeles, I refuse to believe that we have more highly skilled engineers in the area than we have jobs for.

There is always some scary story that people love to throw in there to make everyone get scared of the big bad H1B. This forums has thousands of people here every day - yet we rarely hear a personal firsthand account of H1B personally taking YOUR job. I'm sure there's a couple anecdotal ones out there but we're not having threads pop up weekly of personal accounts. If you want to spend your energy getting angry at companies and people you perceive as less intelligent than you, you're welcome to do that but if you've got a solid skillset and you're solid mid-level or senior-level engineer, you're not going to have a problem finding a job unless you live out in the middle of BFE and there's only one company around with an IT team. Well... then I would say your problem isn't H1Bs, it's your location.

I posted this original post on my blog and Linkedin. Most of the people who commented there were folks that had interviewed people and experienced the same shortage of solid talent out there. I don't want to butcher what folks said by trying to paraphase so I'll just post it on here.

Linkedin:


As far as that university that moved all this tech jobs to India? It sounds like it's outsourcing, not bringing people over. Good luck to them on that. See the original articles I posted on my first post. Based on the statistics of that latest study, odds are that they'll pay 1/3rd or 1/4th of the salary for a worker and get someone who can't scrape together code. Also... H1B visas and outsourcing jobs offshore are two different things.