State of IT - Biggest problem is the lack of skilled workers

Iristheangel

blatini wrote: »

I really am confused why you're unnecessarily acting like a holier than thou jerk?

Ironically, the studies he used did not really back up his point that there's not an skilled IT workers shortage. If anything, they reinforced that there was one. *shrug*

jelevated

.
5char

Chev Chellios

Excellent points as ever Iris, it's inspiring to see that someone like you who is so highly regarded here (with a ridiculous amount of certifications to boot)had to start from somewhere and overcome the odds and daily struggles as well. Keep up the good work! cheers

Chev Chellios

Iristheangel wrote: »

Not necessarily. As mentioned in other threads, even when employers have offered things like free training, free CBT Nuggets, etc, most did not take advantage of these programs that were offered. Maybe 1 or 2 grabs hold of it but everyone else just lets it sit by: http://www.techexams.net/forums/jobs-degrees/126245-new-york-offer-free-college-tuition-families-making-less-than-125k-3.html
I've met folks using learning credits to take a week long class so they could get out of work for a week.

Offering training is not the silver bullet to the skills gap. It's a potential partial solution but only if people actually have the motivation to learn.

Wow most of us would rinse those resources if we were offered the opportunity by our employers

TechGromit

Iristheangel wrote: »

Others report stagnant wages, which suggests that the industry is simply hoping to capitalize on a cheap source of highly skilled foreign labor.

I don't have a problem with the H-1B visa program if a company truly can't find skilled workers domestically to fill there needs, but it should be much more expensive to do so, thus encouraging employers to find talent locally. As it stands now, the system is ripe for abuse, Disney wouldn't have replaced it's entire IT work force with foreign H-1B visa workers if it was more expensive to do so. I think the application fee for companies to get H-1B workers should be raised from $2,000 to $100,000, to help discourage abuse.

Deus Ex Machina

I debate people on the H1B program all the time at my university. The issue always seems to fall down to political lines, which is ludicrous to me.

People should be scared of the H1B program out of principle. The more power you give these companies, the more they will push their limits until its a great deal for them, but a raw deal for the American people. Same deal with big data- how much info are we gonna let these companies gather on our personal lives? Will anyone ever draw the line? Will those laws actually be enforced? Doesn't seem like they currently are.

My security professor told me a couple days ago that his company just laid off a big chunk of his staff and he's probably gonna be fired in a few months. Analysts said its time to reduce headcount in the U.S. and outsource more to India. And that's WITH the Trump's tax cuts on the horizon, and the whole "I'll defend American workers by going after companies that outsource" mantra. Now they are gonna get the tax cuts and return nothing to the American people. And they wonder why we don't trust them...

That's why, in my opinion, the H1B should be radically reformed or killed off. Whether or not its a good thing for the American people now depends on your perspective, but its not going to get any better for us. The U.S. population will rise to 438 million people by 2050 and the job market is slated to embrace automation more and more in the coming years, killing U.S. jobs by design. We don't need to be competing with outsourced labor on top of this.

Iristheangel

I'm against abuses, Deus Ex Machina, but if we don't have the talent or the talent that's willing to move to the areas where the jobs are, then should business stop? There's a time and a place where H1Bs are appropriate. I'm not going to be scared about something on principle before thinking it through and weighing the pros and cons. That kind of blind ideology is never healthy. Just like a previous poster saying that we shouldn't have H1Bs because 75% of STEM grads are out of work but not looking into the details of what that encompasses when one just says "STEM graduates."

I also draw a line between outsourcing and H1Bs. You want to outsource all your highly complete and senior jobs to a country that has an extremely low amount of legitimate engineers? That's not going to blow up at you at any time.

triplea

Iristheangel wrote: »

I'm all for jobs providing training but it's not always realistic. If they have an immediate need for a mid-level or senior-level engineer, you can't put business projects on hold while you train someone up for 2-3 years while you home grow your own senior level engineers.

Sorry should have put that I'm prepared to do this in my own time. The sec+ was done in lunch hours and evenings. Had to pay for this exam myself to as manager said we already had a security officer and manager. Problem was he didn't understand that both of those guys hold no technical qualifications just non technical ones. This is an example of managers not considering training worthwhile. Training show people how things could be done ( you wouldn't know if you're just taking the 'comfy' option ) This can end up saving the company money in the long term.

Even the InfoSec manager put up to the big boss that we could do with someone with technical knowledge rather than CISSP he holds.

I think a lot of the time managers want to 'dumb down' employees as it keeps them where its most convenient for them. Employees who do want to up their skillset and have no encouragement to do so rarely want to stay after they are qualified.

Iristheangel

triplea wrote: »

I think a lot of the time managers want to 'dumb down' employees as it keeps them where its most convenient for them. Employees who do want to up their skillset and have no encouragement to do so rarely want to stay after they are qualified.

I agree with this. I just don't agree that most workers are going to take advantage of training that's available or really take the time to learn if they're forced to go to a class. Like someone said, you can bring a horse to water, you just can't force it to drink. Like many others have said that have had companies that offer free training/certs/etc, the majority of folks do not use it or even try. With a low amount willing to improve themselves even with encouragement, it's unlikely that there will be mid-level or senior-level folks to hire from internally when the time comes for them to find someone. If there is someone, awesome. If not, you're back to the same thing: Trying to hire from a talent pool that is pretty shallow with a few exceptions.

TechGromit

Iristheangel wrote: »

I agree with this. I just don't agree that most workers are going to take advantage of training that's available or really take the time to learn if they're forced to go to a class.

This is why I'm taking my 3rd SANS course in two years, far too many people are not utilizing training dollars offered by the company. There loss, my gain, and the people that who have utilized training dollars, less than 1 in 5 bothers to get a certification. Makes me wonder if they are even paying attention in class.

cyberguypr

@TechGromit In my company we call this the December Rush. Since 60% of the dept. is not interested in training, mid-December we get emailed saying "please spend this or we'll lose it" and us training freaks rush to see how we can spend a couple of extra grand in training before the year ends. The challenge is that it's not enough for good training, so we end up getting stuff like Pluralsight, Linux Academy, A Cloud Guru, etc.

blargoe

Too often I see people using the training as a free week to be at home or to goof off out of town, and conferences as a free trip to Vegas/Orlando.

I'm going to level up even if I have to go at a snails pace in my precious free moments at home (which currently, is the case).

OctalDump

I think that the best approach to training, is something like an apprenticeship - you learn on the job, with a very small gap between learning and doing, and with lots of supervision from someone expert in the skills you are learning. It was a system that we used for centuries, so maybe it does have some value.

JockVSJock

blargoe wrote: »

Too often I see people using the training as a free week to be at home or to goof off out of town, and conferences as a free trip to Vegas/Orlando.

Exactly!

When I did my C|EH online bootcamp from home, my boss warned me to take it seriously, which I did. This is the 1st time in my career when a company has offered to pay for an IT cert, everything else has been on my dime. My boss also told me they have caught other employees who were supposed to be home training, either out shopping or at the bar. I was flabbergasted.

NavyMooseCCNA

OctalDump wrote: »

I think that the best approach to training, is something like an apprenticeship - you learn on the job, with a very small gap between learning and doing, and with lots of supervision from someone expert in the skills you are learning. It was a system that we used for centuries, so maybe it does have some value.

I would love to see something like that for IT. It still exists in the US for trades like electrician and plumbing.

TechGromit

blargoe wrote: »

Too often I see people using the training as a free week to be at home or to goof off out of town, and conferences as a free trip to Vegas/Orlando.

This is why i think obtaining a certification (if available) for the training you take should be a requirement, it shows your employer their training dollars are well spent.

Iristheangel

OctalDump wrote: »

I think that the best approach to training, is something like an apprenticeship - you learn on the job, with a very small gap between learning and doing, and with lots of supervision from someone expert in the skills you are learning. It was a system that we used for centuries, so maybe it does have some value.

Would be nice but most jobs I've been at, most of us are so overloaded that we don't have time to train someone from the ground up. I do think strong mentorship is a positive thing - just don't know if that translates into mid-level and senior-level folks when you look at how technologies evolve and change over time vs and the fact that a "mid-level" at one company is a junior at another. It's definitely a good idea though for beginners though.

blatini

It doesn't have to be a lot of supervision really. Showing a genuine interest in learning, asking questions and taking on grunt work goes a long way. Obviously you don't want to be overbearing or nagging but as long as you're somewhat socially aware you should be able to pick up on that. You can't be spoon fed everything with technology. You have to be willing to screw up sometimes to learn and if you aren't going to take the steps yourself you usually aren't worth training anyways.

(sorry this probably comes off a little angry - this isn't a jab at anyone in this thread or anything)

Iristheangel

100% agree with you

Polynomial

TechGromit wrote: »

This is why I'm taking my 3rd SANS course in two years, far too many people are not utilizing training dollars offered by the company. There loss, my gain, and the people that who have utilized training dollars, less than 1 in 5 bothers to get a certification. Makes me wonder if they are even paying attention in class.

My company pays for everything. People should do this more.

NetworkNewb

TechGromit wrote: »

This is why I'm taking my 3rd SANS course in two years, far too many people are not utilizing training dollars offered by the company.

That's insane to me you've got to do that many SANS courses paid for by your company. No one on my team goes after certs and I still struggle to get anything. It's almost too much a pain to ask anymore, usually just get the run around, only to have bother them over and over asking if I can get X training paid for, only to get denied. I've succumbed to the fact I'm just going to go after things and pay for them on my own.

Used to have a free CBT nuggets account at my company, but not many used it. They "might" add another learning account next year for us to use. Looks like they are leaning towards Pluralsight.

Packet2070

The crude truth of the matter is that More Skills does not equal More certainty in getting a Job anytime one wants it or need it. In a typical interview there are many other factors equally valued, like how to talk, how you present (sell) yourself, hell even your looks matter a lot for some .

I would take with a grain of salt those comments for those Companies that "can't" find Skilled IT Engineers, this normally translate into we need a double-CCIE with super duper troubleshooting skills, great personality and who is willing to work for peanuts.

Iristheangel

Packet2070 wrote: »

The crude truth of the matter is that More Skills does not equal More certainty in getting a Job anytime one wants it or need it. In a typical interview there are many other factors equally valued, like how to talk, how you present (sell) yourself, hell even your looks matter a lot for some .

I would take with a grain of salt those comments for those Companies that "can't" find Skilled IT Engineers, this normally translate into we need a double-CCIE with super duper troubleshooting skills, great personality and who is willing to work for peanuts.

I would agree that it's more than just technical chops but even finding the technical chops is hard.

As far as peanuts, most of the customers I'm working with are paying six figures+ for talent if they can find the talent. Probably has been finding the talent. I also screenshot a couple as well in the $200K thread as a comparison. One is in the LA/OC area ($170-200K + benefits + bonuses etc) and the other is in Atlanta ($175K)

WafflesAndRootbeer

NavyMooseCCNA wrote: »

I would love to see something like that for IT. It still exists in the US for trades like electrician and plumbing.

The only IT area you'll really see it in these days, is networking. The smaller, indie Cisco shops often do it, but they are few and far between these days due to the economics not being in their favor and Cisco trying to kill them off.

securityorc

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Watched some of this video and figured it could come in handy for an interview I might have coming up this week. I say might because I'm not sure if I want the position and not sure if I'm even qualified. Recruiter from the company already contacted and is asking more info. Will probably meet with them...

But anyways, I found the editable version of the Battlecard online, downloaded it, and going to start filling it out tonight. Tell your co-worker it's getting put to use and thanks!

Mind sharing that Battlecard template? I've Googled a bit, the best I found was this DOC: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=6&ved=0ahUKEwiHmZTBlsnTAhVCBiwKHdDMAa0QFggxMAU&url=https%3A%2F%2Fcdn2.hubspot.net%2Fhub%2F31701%2Ffile-25668157-doc%2F...%2Fbattle_card_template.doc&usg=AFQjCNEE8RbMkd5Mek7US4NhMdzIVqnN6Q&sig2=Wvc9ZGT3oauQWn4qjXWwRw&cad=rja

I am looking for a new job and my resume could use a revamping!

kalimuscle

A big problem that the IT industry currently have are job hoppers, who just join - suck up everything and quit and move on quickly for more money and they BS about their roles and the time frames in their resumes.


TE posters you know who you are *-*

TheFORCE

To roughly translate to English the words of a very wise person from another country that shall remain anonymous.

"The family is incapable of providing education
And the educational system gives simply an illusion of knowledge,
It dazzles the minds of the crowds
Promoting the oblivion.
No one any longer searches through libraries to read and disseminate a dose of knowledge
Since those who have saved the knowledge have it locked up for their own benefit."

kabooter

I disagree with lack of skilled workers theory. The IT industry wants skilled workers but does not want to train anyone. It wants fully trained ready to deploy professionals for specific tasks and tools.
Where are the entry level jobs in Toronto area for example?

kalimuscle

kabooter wrote: »

I disagree with lack of skilled workers theory. The IT industry wants skilled workers but does not want to train anyone. It wants fully trained ready to deploy professionals for specific tasks and tools.
Where are the entry level jobs in Toronto area for example?

if the companies want fully trained professionals for certain tasks you know specialists

then be prepared to pay them the big bucks !

Know your worth !

NetworkNewb

securityorc wrote: »

Mind sharing that Battlecard template?

I am looking for a new job and my resume could use a revamping!

Index of /files/jobstuff