State of IT - Biggest problem is the lack of skilled workers

paul78

kabooter wrote: »

I disagree with lack of skilled workers theory. The IT industry wants skilled workers but does not want to train anyone.

I've been reading this thread with interest for the past few days. Thanks @Iristheangel for the very thoughtful post and discussion.

@kabooter - I can't speak about Canada but there is a general lack of skilled technology workers in some areas. Training is a very expensive commitment and most companies that I know are willing to perform some level of training. And all successful orgs will provide ongoing training. But most companies cannot afford the 100K-200K per person to train someone up to become competent in highly technical areas.

I couldn't help noticing that the conversations are slanted towards network and sysadmin skill-sets. From my perspective - I see the shortage of skilled tech workers in the US - especially with software engineers. This is one of the reasons why salaries are extremely high for certain skillsets such as full-stack devs, data-scientists, and senior-to-principal software engineers with certain backend skills.

I attend a round-table of my peers every 2 months. It's about a dozen tech execs and a common discussion point is about recruiting and retention. In our most recent discussion, the lack of skilled engineers came up again. Ever since the anti-poaching lawsuits several years ago, we have all seen tech salaries inflate. Each of us had different strategies to cope and there was also some apprehension around the lack of H1B's. The reality is that we have to protect our businesses, and many of us employ strategies including opening offices in other countries, hiring remote employees, and out-sourcing non-critical tech functions.

In businesses especially VC-backed startups where time to market and competition is fierce, companies have to go where the talent is if they cannot bring them in. And in a global economy, isolationism will kill tech businesses that are trying to grow. Yes - the talent shortage is very real and very expensive for some businesses.

MontagueVandervort

I haven't read every single response on this thread, but I sit on the side that's in agreement with Iris. It's true I haven't seen as much as some members on this forum have since I'm still considered entry-level, but what I've seen so far hasn't really sat well with me.

When I was in school, all I saw was wide scale instructor-approved (and encouraged) cheating and lack of interest in material. And before someone comes up with a response of "Well it was just a bad school", no ...... I switched schools a couple times in an attempt to find something different. I went to three different schools, and it was the same story everywhere. And before (lulz) someone comes up with "Well it was just your town", no ...... I thought it may be too, so I drove over an hour to go to school in the capital city. It was still the same story, just on a more formal scale.

The other thing that really gets to me was that in every interview I've been to so far, no one has even touched on anything technical. All right, maybe it's because I'm entry level. I don't know, but I expected differently. So far the interviews have been based on personal questions like "Tell me about yourself" and "What was your family like growing up?". ZERO technical questions have occurred. It seems to me that most employers are hiring based on appearance, personality, and how well you will be able to smoothly meld into the "group".

I expected heavy technical questions on interviews, and I semi-expected tests/exams, yet the most technical question I've ever been asked is, "Do you like Windows Vista?"

Also, for reference...... I've interviewed for some very big names. I'm not sure if I can put the names here but just understand we're not talking small organizations or startups. Some very big names (including a large, national bank lulz) who didn't even ask me technical questions. I think that's ludicrous and probably part of the overall problem in this industry.

securityorc

NetworkNewb wrote: »

Index of /files/jobstuff

Thanks for the link!

This topic is really interesting, and I wanted to bring my 2 cents on the discussion, but will try to keep it short (my posts have a tendency to grow out of proportion xD )

While the reality is that there are many unskilled people working in an industry that does require above the average skill, the fault is shared between them AND the companies. After all, in all walks of life, the people who are lazy, unmotivated, and just going through the motion is greater than those who make efforts, work towards their goals, aspire to excellence. That should be no surprise..But! It is the same companies that complain they "can't find good people" that perpetrate this. Think about it:

- there are people working for years in their positions and not improve, learn anything new, or even get slightly better than they were when they started. But are they suffering penalties because of it? No, they won't reach any higher professional peaks, but they also won't lose their jobs (unless something serious happens). And on top of that, they have ~ years of experience to put on their resume for something they might be clueless about. So take an eager newbie who is studying, getting certs, labbing on their own, trying to break in the industry, but no experience. They get overlooked, but "there's a shortage of people in the field".

- companies really seem to hate training people and investing in their growth. If they can't find people that meet their requirements, how about getting some who don't, but with the will and sufficient background to learn and get there? Is it so hard to imagine that a 1-3 month intensive bootcamp could turn someone into exactly what they needed for the job? The military does it with its recruits, and let's face it, the kind of things people are being taught in the military aren't that easy to compare with bashing on the keyboard. So why not get recruits and train them for their job roles? Sure, you can't expect to get someone off the street with no knowlege in computers and turn them into a wizard, but what about the fresh graduate with no experience? Or what about the passionate enthusiast that came from a totally different background and learned on their own?

- what about those that make it to interviews and display their utter lack of knowledge in the job? That's because the recruiting process is garbage, totally unsuited for today's world. Still the same old procedures, send CV -> CV gets looked at -> if content matches some expectations -> interview(s) . In a technical field and with today's possibilities, so much time would be saved if, for instance: after applying for a job, you have to pass a test before your CV will be read by a human. Some examples:

• if job == pentesting: get a link and some credentials to log in to a resource that you have to break into and write a report about in 24 hours
• if job == programming: send code that accomplishes <task> . Something suitable enough to gauge skills but not hard / easy enough to be irrelevant
• if job == networking: create a topology in something like GNS3 that conforms to <scenario> and write a short report about why you think it is the best suited solution for <scenario>

I could go on, but the main problem is IT is a hands-on industry that picks its players with theory and paper screening. But do the same companies that have the resources to create changes do anything about it? No, it's easier to claim "there aren't enough skilled people around". In the meantime, all those vacancies get reposted, because a bunch of super-elite professionals with decades of experience in the field haven't showed up to fill them.

Well, this doesn't look short at all..and I did hold back..

OctalDump

Iristheangel wrote: »

Would be nice but most jobs I've been at, most of us are so overloaded that we don't have time to train someone from the ground up. I do think strong mentorship is a positive thing - just don't know if that translates into mid-level and senior-level folks when you look at how technologies evolve and change over time vs and the fact that a "mid-level" at one company is a junior at another. It's definitely a good idea though for beginners though.

Yeah, I guess at the beginning it could work along traditional apprenticeship lines, and then later it's about stuff like QA and continuous improvement and mentorship and peer review. I'd hope that the increase in productivity from competent staff and good process would more than make up for the overhead of running a program like this.

dhay13

MontagueVandervort wrote: »

I haven't read every single response on this thread, but I sit on the side that's in agreement with Iris. It's true I haven't seen as much as some members on this forum have since I'm still considered entry-level, but what I've seen so far hasn't really sat well with me.

When I was in school, all I saw was wide scale instructor-approved (and encouraged) cheating and lack of interest in material. And before someone comes up with a response of "Well it was just a bad school", no ...... I switched schools a couple times in an attempt to find something different. I went to three different schools, and it was the same story everywhere. And before (lulz) someone comes up with "Well it was just your town", no ...... I thought it may be too, so I drove over an hour to go to school in the capital city. It was still the same story, just on a more formal scale.

The other thing that really gets to me was that in every interview I've been to so far, no one has even touched on anything technical. All right, maybe it's because I'm entry level. I don't know, but I expected differently. So far the interviews have been based on personal questions like "Tell me about yourself" and "What was your family like growing up?". ZERO technical questions have occurred. It seems to me that most employers are hiring based on appearance, personality, and how well you will be able to smoothly meld into the "group".

I expected heavy technical questions on interviews, and I semi-expected tests/exams, yet the most technical question I've ever been asked is, "Do you like Windows Vista?"

Also, for reference...... I've interviewed for some very big names. I'm not sure if I can put the names here but just understand we're not talking small organizations or startups. Some very big names (including a large, national bank lulz) who didn't even ask me technical questions. I think that's ludicrous and probably part of the overall problem in this industry.

Geez. All I get is technical questions at my interviews. I can only think of 1 out of about 15 that didn't ask a ton of technical questions.

hurricane1091

Not really sure what people expect. Actually understanding how things in IT work takes a lot of effort and time, and most humans aren't going to put themselves through it unless a reward might come of it (career advancement). Many people know the steps to get a task done, but might not really know what's going on. Most won't, end of discussion. And the answer isn't more foreign imported workers either.

Iristheangel

I wouldn't say the answer was importing foreign workers either. Other countries have the same problems as us when it comes to skilled workers. Not sure if I care as long as it's the smartest coming over or it's someone who came here to go to school and then upon graduation, they shifted their visa over to H1B and everyone is paid/treated well. There is no easy answer to the skills gap - we're not going to auto-magically make comfortable people motivated to step outside their comfort zone and learn something new - but if you're someone who is highly skilled, always learning, flexible and willing to go were the jobs are, it doesn't really matter if there are H1Bs in the field or not, you're going to continue to be in demand and find the jobs that pay.

Iristheangel

MontagueVandervort wrote: »

I haven't read every single response on this thread, but I sit on the side that's in agreement with Iris. It's true I haven't seen as much as some members on this forum have since I'm still considered entry-level, but what I've seen so far hasn't really sat well with me.

When I was in school, all I saw was wide scale instructor-approved (and encouraged) cheating and lack of interest in material. And before someone comes up with a response of "Well it was just a bad school", no ...... I switched schools a couple times in an attempt to find something different. I went to three different schools, and it was the same story everywhere. And before (lulz) someone comes up with "Well it was just your town", no ...... I thought it may be too, so I drove over an hour to go to school in the capital city. It was still the same story, just on a more formal scale.

The other thing that really gets to me was that in every interview I've been to so far, no one has even touched on anything technical. All right, maybe it's because I'm entry level. I don't know, but I expected differently. So far the interviews have been based on personal questions like "Tell me about yourself" and "What was your family like growing up?". ZERO technical questions have occurred. It seems to me that most employers are hiring based on appearance, personality, and how well you will be able to smoothly meld into the "group".

I expected heavy technical questions on interviews, and I semi-expected tests/exams, yet the most technical question I've ever been asked is, "Do you like Windows Vista?"

Also, for reference...... I've interviewed for some very big names. I'm not sure if I can put the names here but just understand we're not talking small organizations or startups. Some very big names (including a large, national bank lulz) who didn't even ask me technical questions. I think that's ludicrous and probably part of the overall problem in this industry.

My earlier jobs didn't have a lot of technical questions but the second I started interviewing for jobs with "engineer" in the title, the technical interviews started coming. You mentioned you were entry level but that can mean that you just haven't been in the field for long. If you don't mind me asking, what roles were you applying for?

UnixGuy

While this thread is US specific, we have a smiliar problem in Australia (HB1 = 457 in Australia) ...ironically enough the visa has been revised (revoked) recently....

This is a related article:

457 visa changes: (Article about experienced guy who can't get a job...sort of)


I think greedy business need to invest in training and apprenticeship.

hurricane1091

I'm not comfortable, but I eventually see a day where I'm older and not constantly concerned with studying. The senior network guy where I was working was in his upper 30s. He's paid well, he's been there forever, there's no pay day in store unless he wants to get a CCNA then CCNP and switch companies or become a manager, neither of which he wants to do. He's got kids and a family, he likes where he's at and he makes enough. So yes, he's complacent, but I don't blame him.

Iristheangel

@UnixGuy - To be fair, he's not really that experienced or a senior engineer. He had some unspecified time at Amazon that we know is under 3 years but it's unknown how long he was there. Then the article goes on to liken his struggle to CEO's complaining that there weren't enough Australians to fill senior tech roles. I feel like it's a little bit of a false equivalency to compare some newer guy in the field who's struggling to find work as there not being a tech shortage for senior level roles. Now if they gave his job to someone from India who had less than 3 years of experience after denying him for the same reasons, he'd have an argument. Starting out in this field and getting past "entry level" is always the hardest part that requires some luck, flexibility, and a lot of hard work whether it's studying on your own, moving around where the jobs are, etc to get to that point. Having a lot of entry-level folks that are struggling to find that foot in the door sucks but it's a false equivalency to say there isn't a tech shortage of senior engineers because we happen to have a lot of inexperienced entry-level folks.

Going back to the original post - If companies have an open senior role and projects piling up, business still needs to get done and even the company is trying to train up entry-level folks, that need for senior folks doesn't go away or get put on hold.

Iristheangel

hurricane1091 wrote: »

I'm not comfortable, but I eventually see a day where I'm older and not constantly concerned with studying. The senior network guy where I was working was in his upper 30s. He's paid well, he's been there forever, there's no pay day in store unless he wants to get a CCNA then CCNP and switch companies or become a manager, neither of which he wants to do. He's got kids and a family, he likes where he's at and he makes enough. So yes, he's complacent, but I don't blame him.

Fair enough but situations change. He might get laid off, his company may go out of business, his job might be rendered obsolete with automation, etc, etc. If the "hot" skills that are desired by employers aren't the ones he holds or the industry changes over the years to make a lot of his skills obsolete, he might find some problems finding jobs. If he applies for senior level jobs, he might not be what most companies define as obsolete. There's an argument that could be made that they could train him up but if he hasn't taken any interest in doing so on his own in 10+ years in the field (or however many years experience he has at a point where he finds himself trying to find a new job), then what shows that he's going to be a wise investment then for the company to pour resources into?

Not sure if you remember MRock on the forums from years ago. Smart guy and super cool. He got 2x CCIEs and taught himself programming with 3 young kids and a wife at home. He's currently working on his CCDE. Nick Russo is another one - he got his first CCIE when married, wrote a 3000 page CCIE SP book and got the CCIE SP while his wife was pregnant and he just finished his CCDE this year while his kiddo was still young. Work/life/study balance is important for sure and they all managed it - they just win an honorary "CCIE Time Management" for balancing them all masterfully. I understand being comfortable but just understand that risks come with getting too comfortable and there's a certain point that you can't blame other folks for that.

hurricane1091

Iristheangel wrote: »

Fair enough but situations change. He might get laid off, his company may go out of business, his job might be rendered obsolete with automation, etc, etc. If the "hot" skills that are desired by employers aren't the ones he holds or the industry changes over the years to make a lot of his skills obsolete, he might find some problems finding jobs. If he applies for senior level jobs, he might not be what most companies define as obsolete. There's an argument that could be made that they could train him up but if he hasn't taken any interest in doing so on his own in 10+ years in the field (or however many years experience he has at a point where he finds himself trying to find a new job), then what shows that he's going to be a wise investment then for the company to pour resources into?

Not sure if you remember MRock on the forums from years ago. Smart guy and super cool. He got 2x CCIEs and taught himself programming with 3 young kids and a wife at home. He's currently working on his CCDE. Nick Russo is another one - he got his first CCIE when married, wrote a 3000 page CCIE SP book and got the CCIE SP while his wife was pregnant and he just finished his CCDE this year while his kiddo was still young. Work/life/study balance is important for sure and they all managed it - they just win an honorary "CCIE Time Management" for balancing them all masterfully. I understand being comfortable but just understand that risks come with getting too comfortable and there's a certain point that you can't blame other folks for that.

I understand where you are coming from when you mention the "what if" scenarios, and I'm in the same boat. I took this new job because they are looking to automate the network. I have no idea how to do it yet, but I know many companies may look for this skill set going forward and I need to be prepared. Alternatively, most careers do not have you constantly bettering yourself outside of work. IT is almost unhealthy in terms of how much it can consume your life. People NEED to be able to do their jobs though. If we're saying the people in their roles right now are not the right people, then we've got a genuine problem. Sammy Server is more than happy spinning up servers all day, and that's FINE, but if he can't do that right, then we've got issues. I'd agree that most people do not know what they are doing out there, I really would. We don't need everyone to be CCNP/MSCE certified at a minimum, but we do need everyone at every level to be good at their job and that definitely is not happening right now.

Do I have theories on why most IT workers seem bad at their job? I'd say most don't care enough to really understand, or got to the job without understanding fully so why even bother now I suppose. I'll say this though, some things just flat out are hard to understand. Some things you just can't get lab equipment for, you just wouldn't learn it until the job called for it.

jelevated

Hmmm less than 3 years at Amazon? I will give him the benefit of the doubt since the average amazon tenure is less than 3 years (depending on the position, for a variety of reasons) but it sounds like he was getting valuable experience. I understand wanting to return home but did he quit without having a job lined up first? Thats bad news.

UnixGuy

@jelevated: most employers in Australia won't interview you unless you are on shore

blatini

One thing I'm curious is what do you expect from "company paid training"?
Are you talking about going into class for a week? CBT , books, exam and free lab equipment? Getting your books paid for + exam? Exam paid for after passing? All of this?
Only at my most recent position have I been offered the 4th option and I was pretty ecstatic. I ideally would like to get to option 3 which I think is the best both for me and my employer.

@hurricane1091 your coworker will be fine. He would be better off with the certifications, but if you can train yourself to that level then that speaks to you being a solid worker. The idea that IT has to be all consuming outside of work is over exaggerated. If you want to be a CCIE - yes it is pretty intense... otherwise it really isn't. Managing your time is obviously huge, but I also see a lot of friends spreading themselves too thin. They get some project about scripting and decide to go through Kirk Byers 10 weeks of Python training when they were halfway through their CCNA studies and could have just googled for a similar script and edited it to their needs. Now after building something that is trivial from scratch they go back to the CCNA and are set back however much time it took. Not to say learning scripting is a bad thing - it's just you did that for ONE thing and you never really are planning to go back to it. Was that really worth it? I guess spreading yourself too thin is the wrong way of putting it, but I am not coming up with anything better.. Effectively studying is huge too. Reading aloud is twice as effective as just reading, making flash cards when you can't keep focused enough to read, etc. If you're just frustrated because you aren't getting a concept so you just stare at the book or re read it for the 3rd time in a row you need to change something up.

I also think people get caught up in an identity crisis of sorts. They are really hurricane's coworker, but they force themselves to try and be Iris but keep crashing and burning. It's OK to not be among the most advanced/technical/T-1000 people in the industry.

Params7

Straight out of a college while looking for networking jobs I was contacted by this Indian firm in NJ, where all they did was have students memorize basic concepts then give interviews with cooked up resumes showing 10-15 years of experience. They then help them fake interviews. I bailed, found a helpdesk gig then eventually made it to networking. I'm Indian and all I saw there were Indians and Chinese students on student visas. I made friends there and I felt bad for them for what they were being put through. The desperation to find work+legal status to stay in U.S. blinds them to the unethicality of it all. The people who run the centers don't care. If they place these students, it will be in a $100k job of which they will pocket 50-60%. Reading OPs post, it seems obvious to me she was getting interviewees being sent by these centers.

US needs to crackdown on these centers. I have some hopes with the hardline stance of this new administration though but actual reforms need to happen with H1B and not just talk. I think at this point H1B is being abused far more than it is being made a legit use of.

Iristheangel

Params7 wrote: »

Straight out of a college while looking for networking jobs I was contacted by this Indian firm in NJ, where all they did was have students memorize basic concepts then give interviews with cooked up resumes showing 10-15 years of experience. They then help them fake interviews. I bailed, found a helpdesk gig then eventually made it to networking. I'm Indian and all I saw there were Indians and Chinese students on student visas. I made friends there and I felt bad for them for what they were being put through. The desperation to find work+legal status to stay in U.S. blinds them to the unethicality of it all. Reading OPs post, it seems obvious to me she was getting interviewees being sent by these centers.

US needs to crackdown on these centers. I have some hopes with the hardline stance of this new administration though but actual reforms need to happen with H1B and not just talk. I think at this point H1B is being abused far more than it is being made a legit use of.

Most of my interviewees were not Indian or Chinese so this would be incorrect. I very much doubt that these folks were coming from fake firms in most cases. I didn't interview any H1Bs - both positions I was accepting interviews for didn't have any H1Bs in the running. That's not to say we wouldn't have accepted them but the recruiting firms we used didn't offer any up to us to interview. I'm all for reforming abuses but saying the majority are abused within IT would be based on your experience. Someone in previous posts on this thread tried to post some peer reviewed studies that showed they were being abused but in reality, the studies did either confirm or didn't try to dissuade the fact that there is a skilled worker shortage and that the average H1B in tech is paid more than their US counterparts. There's potential for abuse - that is sure and I would love to see those loopholes closed - but my original post wasn't to bag on H1B workers or say they should get out.

To be fair, there's been a lot of rationalization in this thread on why it can't be a skilled tech shortage:
- The job description must have been written poorly
- The resume filtering process must have been done poorly
- We must have not checked the references (not practical BEFORE you do a technical screening btw)
- What we were asking for must have been unreasonable
- We should be training folks to be taking these senior roles (Again, impractical if you have an immediate need for a senior role)
- We must have been paying peanuts
- The candidates must have been coming from firms that are prepping them for the interviews and they don't really know anything (your example)

While I'm sure there are anecdotal examples of the above in the market, I don't believe that on a macro-level, that any of those things are the prevalent problem overall. The simplest explanation is the better one. I don't that many companies are struggling to find senior folks because on an industry-wide level, they all suck at writing the job descriptions, can't sort through resumes, would rather business not get done than raise the salary, and the majority of people applying are coming from cheating firms. This would not be the simplest explanation.

I know some folks like to grab onto specific examples and treat that like it's the overall problem with the industry (i.e. someone finding a job description asking for 10 years of experience in Server 2012, the Disney H1B story, etc etc etc). These stories are salacious and meant to antagonize and on an anecdotal level, they are pretty frustrating to watch happen. These are stories meant to be polarizing and, as one can see from this thread, they work.

sj4088

dhay13 wrote: »

Geez. All I get is technical questions at my interviews. I can only think of 1 out of about 15 that didn't ask a ton of technical questions.

Same here but then again I'm not entry level. For tier 3 and tier 4 engineering positions there will be LOTS of technical questions based around your experience.

Params7

Iristheangel wrote: »

Most of my interviewees were not Indian or Chinese so this would be incorrect. I very much doubt that these folks were coming from fake firms in most cases. I didn't interview any H1Bs - both positions I was accepting interviews for didn't have any H1Bs in the running. That's not to say we wouldn't have accepted them but the recruiting firms we used didn't offer any up to us to interview. I'm all for reforming abuses but saying the majority are abused within IT would be based on your experience. Someone in previous posts on this thread tried to post some peer reviewed studies that showed they were being abused but in reality, the studies did either confirm or didn't try to dissuade the fact that there is a skilled worker shortage and that the average H1B in tech is paid more than their US counterparts. There's potential for abuse - that is sure and I would love to see those loopholes closed - but my original post wasn't to bag on H1B workers or say they should get out.

To be fair, there's been a lot of rationalization in this thread on why it can't be a skilled tech shortage:
- The job description must have been written poorly
- The resume filtering process must have been done poorly
- We must have not checked the references (not practical BEFORE you do a technical screening btw)
- What we were asking for must have been unreasonable
- We should be training folks to be taking these senior roles (Again, impractical if you have an immediate need for a senior role)
- We must have been paying peanuts
- The candidates must have been coming from firms that are prepping them for the interviews and they don't really know anything (your example)

While I'm sure there are anecdotal examples of the above in the market, I don't believe that on a macro-level, that any of those things are the prevalent problem overall. The simplest explanation is the better one. I don't that many companies are struggling to find senior folks because on an industry-wide level, they all suck at writing the job descriptions, can't sort through resumes, would rather business not get done than raise the salary, and the majority of people applying are coming from cheating firms. This would not be the simplest explanation.

I know some folks like to grab onto specific examples and treat that like it's the overall problem with the industry (i.e. someone finding a job description asking for 10 years of experience in Server 2012, the Disney H1B story, etc etc etc). These stories are salacious and meant to antagonize and on an anecdotal level, they are pretty frustrating to watch happen. These are stories meant to be polarizing and, as one can see from this thread, they work.

The salaciousness is perhaps coming from it being politicized, and you're putting forth a good stance for perhaps giving out more H1Bs. Perhaps if equal attention was given to closing the loopholes and abuses, a case could be made for it.

When I tried to get out of that firm, they threatened me by saying I had signed some contract, and if I don't fulfil their project by eventually getting placed somewhere by some firm, that I would be in trouble with the law. I laughed it off and ignored them. These firms are real, and they have their claws right on the job sites of college campuses for very vulnerable foreign students. It may not be as common as you think, but we'll all be the better for recognizing abuses like these and clotting them.

Iristheangel

Params7 wrote: »

The salaciousness is perhaps coming from it being politicized, and you're putting forth a good stance for perhaps giving out more H1Bs. Perhaps if equal attention was given to closing the loopholes and abuses, a case could be made for it.

The reason why I'm not going to spend equal time on this post specifying what loopholes to close is because this post wasn't about the laws that need to be changed. It's about the needs and current state of the IT field and how the future looks for skilled workers. Foreign workers are usually used as a scapegoat for why people can't excel or enter the field in the first place which, for the most part, is just FUD. Now I believe we can have a conversation and highlight these things without it spiraling into political discourse on what should or should not be changed at a legal level - because it's beyond the scope of this topic and it gets the more polarized views out to play (as seen in this thread).

Iristheangel

Params7 wrote: »

When I tried to get out of that firm, they threatened me by saying I had signed some contract, and if I don't fulfil their project by eventually getting placed somewhere by some firm, that I would be in trouble with the law. I laughed it off and ignored them. These firms are real, and they have their claws right on the job sites of college campuses for very vulnerable foreign students. It may not be as common as you think, but we'll all be the better for recognizing abuses like these and clotting them.

I'm sorry you went through that. Thankfully, my wife, who came over here on an H1B, didn't have any issues with any of these firms. It's not that I don't believe they don't exist, it's just that I don't believe your generalization that the majority of folks I interviewed came from these firms. As stated in my original post, I'm all for ending abuses of vulnerable workers but that wasn't supposed to be the predominating topic of this thread. My original post what about the general shortage of skilled IT workers - not entry-level folks. My original mention of H1Bs and foreign workers was in relation to that - not what laws need to be changed, whether or not their are abuses, etc. If you're a solid mid-level or senior-level engineer with the skills to back it up, you're going to have a lot of demand and I wouldn't worry as much about a foreign worker replacing you. As you can see in the original post, other countries have their own struggles with creating skilled talent as well.

paul78

Params7 wrote: »

When I tried to get out of that firm, they threatened me by saying I had signed some contract, and if I don't fulfil their project by eventually getting placed somewhere by some firm, that I would be in trouble with the law. I laughed it off and ignored them. These firms are real, and they have their claws right on the job sites of college campuses for very vulnerable foreign students. It may not be as common as you think, but we'll all be the better for recognizing abuses like these and clotting them.

Are you willing to disclose the name of the firm? I'm curious because I work with several recruiters and staffing firms. And since we have a lot of people new in their career - it could be helpful.

Also - these firms exists - because there is a shortage of certain skills and companies are having a tough time hiring. This is why these companies show up. It's not because of H1B's.

shimasensei

Thanks for this thread, a lot of good information.

Slightly different than the examples here, but I have run into a number of "fake" IT pros through the years, claiming decades of experience, some even with advanced certs and degrees. Some of them have even worked for household name multinational tech companies. But they can't do the simplest work! E.g. a BISCI/PMP certified person who is unorganized, always late on deliverables and whose projects are run like a freakin circus. Others who are not even familiar with basic technology concepts and basic system, network, security administration common sense. I see a common thread among these people, they are well versed in older era technology and programming languages, etc. Nothing wrong with that, but they have gotten to the point of comfort where they felt like they did not need to learn anymore. I have spoken to some of them, and they say things like:

"I was gung-ho like you (about technology) when I was your age"
"certifications are for the young / inexperienced"

They have no motivation to improve themselves.

They rely on their decades of "experience". It bugs the hell out of me haha.

jelevated

shimasensei wrote: »

"I was gung-ho like you (about technology) when I was your age"
"certifications are for the young / inexperienced"

They have no motivation to improve themselves.

They rely on their decades of "experience". It bugs the hell out of me haha.

Ugh Yep.

Deus Ex Machina

The argument that "H1B's are appropriate in some situations" is a tough statement to argue against. There are, of course, always going to be some situations where it was indeed helpful, and situations where businesses would not have been able to survive without it.

However, when people bring up the fact that the system is being abused, you cannot simply say "I'm all for eliminating abuses". This system will always be abused so long as it exists, and only increasingly so with time. Its seen as a cost saving measure by every major company near me. We need to defend the future for the next generation of IT professionals because the climate is quickly evolving to screw them on every front. A cloud+ automation focused future for IT, and H1B-favored entry level jobs could leave young people with no where to turn. If we don't force companies to train our young/inexperienced talent and to pay back the country that built them up, how can we expect anything good from them in the future?

Iristheangel

Deus Ex Machina wrote: »

However, when people bring up the fact that the system is being abused, you cannot simply say "I'm all for eliminating abuses". This system will always be abused so long as it exists, and only increasingly so with time. Its seen as a cost saving measure by every major company near me. We need to defend the future for the next generation of IT professionals because the climate is quickly evolving to screw them on every front. A cloud+ automation focused future for IT, and H1B-favored entry level jobs could leave young people with no where to turn. If we don't force companies to train our young/inexperienced talent and to pay back the country that built them up, how can we expect anything good from them in the future?

If you don't mind me asking, whereabouts do you live where every company utilizes H1Bs as a cost-saving measure? Since H1Bs are publicly listed and awarded on a lottery system, I would be interested in seeing where this major crop of them are.

I can be for eliminating abuses without wanting to eliminate a whole entire program. Every single system out there whether it's taxes, the law, charities, the banking system, healthcare, accounting, etc can all be abused in some way, shape or form. Simply saying we should end them to prevent the possibility of abuse is, in itself, counterproductive.

As it has been stated many times here in this thread, offering training does not mean people are going to take advantage of it. You could literally pay someone a bonus to utilize training and in most cases, they won't try. Let me give you a current example of this: I work at a company that provides free training, mentorship programs, three free attempts at the lab, a very generous bonus upon successful pass of the lab, and a very generous bonus every time you recert with a written. Not to mention a huge amount of recognition upon a pass and some good talking points come annual review time. Want to know how many people on my team that comprises of the west currently have a CCIE or actively pursuing it? You're talking to her. The previous team I was on? Yep. Only me at that time. That's not to disparage on my teammates or say they are lazy - not at all - but it's an example that if you provide people training, incentivize them with money, and give them time, it still will not magically solve the problems of a skills gap. This is not only my experience. Many other folks have chipped into this thread and echoed the same experience with the folks they work with and how many actually take advantage of the free training offered to them.

Short of holding a gun to someone's head, how can an employer force someone to do more than the bare minimum when it comes to training if recognition, bonuses, raises, offering free training, etc is not enough to motivate most of the folks to take advantage of it? If only a small amount of folks take advantage and they need more senior staff than those who do rise up through the ranks, what do they do then when there's no internal resources and no one on the market? Hit the pause button on business?

Deus Ex Machina

I live around many insurance companies. They give H1B's to call center staff, QA's, some software devs, etc. They use every trick in the book they can to get them over here (changing the job title, demanding insane hours once they are on-boarded, "paying for housing" where they have to live like livestock with 4 other people in a 2 person apartment, etc.), and then they hold them hostage and squeeze them for every ounce of hard work they have or else they revoke their citizenship.

"Every single system out there whether it's taxes, the law, charities, the banking system, healthcare, accounting, etc. can all be abused in some way, shape or form."

This is getting into straw man fallacy a bit. For example, yes, there's some grotesque abuses in accounting in terms of tax loopholes but there's always gonna be another loophole. Therefore, there's not really a fix to its inherent problems, hence why it hasn't been "fixed" yet. We obviously cannot just "get rid of" accounting because it is a basic business function.

H1B's are not a basic business function, this country survived without it for most of its existence. The potential drawbacks to this system can easily eclipse the benefits in the future, and many would argue it already has.

Iristheangel

You did not answer the question of where you lived. You simply said that you live around insurance companies. The does little to narrow down the geography. H1Bs locations, job titles and salaries are listed online so if you are near a location where the majority of companies are using them, it's easily indexed online.

As far as me pointing out that all systems can be abused, I was pointing out that your own logic doesn't stand up when weighed against other examples. The country also survived without the internet for almost 200 years as well but with a global economy and market place, that isn't practical anymore. As Paul pointed out in previous posts, H1Bs are a symptom of a problem (lack of skilled IT workers). The double-down posts about how the system itself needs to be done away with is irrelevant and off topic when you look at the original post. You want to get rid of H1Bs? Take that to the voting booth. That's the power you have. Want to talk about what really causes them? The only solution you presented was that companies need to train workers which myself and many others have reiterated many times over that most people will not take training when offered or incentivized to so that isn't the complete solution right there. Got anything better as far as solutions go?

Iristheangel

Note: Just looked up top companies for H1Bs here - H1B Visa Salary Database 2016 - Employer, Job, or Location

Of the top insurance companies getting H1Bs:

• Nationwide Insurance has 468 employees with an average salary of $80,445. Mostly for jobs in Columbus, OH.
  Nationwide insurance Salary
• Esurance has 346 employees with an average salary of $102,759. Mostly for jobs in San Francisco, CA
  Esurance insurance services inc Salary
• Progressive Insurance has 248 employees with an average salary of $82,317. Mostly for jobs in Mayfield Village, OH
  Progressive casualty insurance company Salary
• Transamerica Life Insurance has 246 employees with an average salary of $72,215. Most are for jobs in Cedar Rapids, IA
  Transamerica life insurance company Salary
• Aetna Life Insurance Company has 202 employees with an average salary of $92,811. Most are for jobs in Hartford,CT and Phoenix, AZ
  Aetna life insurance company Salary
• Cigna Health and Life Insurance has 172 employees with an average salary of $105,957. Most are for jobs in Bloomfield and Winsor, CT
  Cigna health and life insurance company Salary
• American General Life Insurance Company has 170 employees with an average salary of 92,278. Most are for jobs in Houston, TX
  American general life insurance company Salary

As you can see from above, Deux, if you go to the links, the insurance companies with the most H1Bs are not hiring many entry level folks from the job titles and if those job titles are wrong, they sure aren't paying them entry level salary. When compared with salary.com, most are making really good money compared to the average for that location/job title. Maybe you live somewhere else besides the above but I tried to be fair by looking for the insurance companies that were hiring the most H1Bs since that's the data you gave me to work with.